2 hours ago, a1bert said:

Don't forget Force Throw.

I believe that the hero portion of Waylay would also trigger it, granted Onar would have to be adjacent to an enemy when it triggers but oh well. The point is it can be triggered in -so many- ways

5 hours ago, Zetsubou said:

I believe that the hero portion of Waylay would also trigger it, granted Onar would have to be adjacent to an enemy when it triggers but oh well. The point is it can be triggered in -so many- ways

The Hero portion of Waylay would not trigger it. Onar would not enter any space during that trigger, unless he had a weapon or ability that let him move because he attacked.

Jep, there's nothing in Waylay that allows Onar to enter a space.

Oh, yeah, missed the "enter" portion. That's what I get trying to pull stuff from memory at work!

On 2017-05-19 at 11:33 AM, Zetsubou said:

I personally believe that people playing Onar for damage or as a tank really miss what makes the character tick.

Well if they're using him for a tank, then yes. Even with his Blacksun Armor he's still worse of a tank than Shayla with her bonus evade ability and a combat coat. Before he gets the armor he's horrible and is in the running for most fragile hero in the game.

Don't Make Me Hurt You on the other hand... You may not appreciate how effective adding an average of 2 wounds to an attack is. If you were 50/50 to kill a storm trooper before, you're now almost 100%. It's very impactful.

Onar is arguably the worst "tank" in the game, at least before he gets his armour. He takes a lot of damage with each attack, and he has a really hard time healing that damage.

On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 2:33 PM, Union said:

Well if they're using him for a tank, then yes. Even with his Blacksun Armor he's still worse of a tank than Shayla with her bonus evade ability and a combat coat. Before he gets the armor he's horrible and is in the running for most fragile hero in the game.

Don't Make Me Hurt You on the other hand... You may not appreciate how effective adding an average of 2 wounds to an attack is. If you were 50/50 to kill a storm trooper before, you're now almost 100%. It's very impactful.

Far from it. I do realize an additional red die is extremely impactful, but I don't find it more impactful than what he can bring to the game between picking up crates and winning missions with a test-heavy objective. Obviously there are missions where killing a stormtrooper a turn will be the deciding factor, but I find that consistent attribute tests, free interacts, and pushing blocking models are more significant (given your group composition already has two damage-oriented characters).

But that's just my take on the big guy. Only reason I brought any of it up in the first place is that his objective play doesn't seem to be discussed much when evaluating him as a hero pick.

1 hour ago, Zetsubou said:

Far from it. I do realize an additional red die is extremely impactful, but I don't find it more impactful than what he can bring to the game between picking up crates and winning missions with a test-heavy objective. Obviously there are missions where killing a stormtrooper a turn will be the deciding factor, but I find that consistent attribute tests, free interacts, and pushing blocking models are more significant (given your group composition already has two damage-oriented characters).

But that's just my take on the big guy. Only reason I brought any of it up in the first place is that his objective play doesn't seem to be discussed much when evaluating him as a hero pick.

We should probably make the distinction between a Tank and a damage dealer (DPS isn't quite the right term for turn-based gameplay, I assume).

Onar can't really take a hit. But boy can he deal one. Thus, he's not really a tank, but I wouldn't shy away from still playing aggressively with him.

8 minutes ago, subtrendy2 said:

We should probably make the distinction between a Tank and a damage dealer (DPS isn't quite the right term for turn-based gameplay, I assume).

Onar can't really take a hit. But boy can he deal one. Thus, he's not really a tank, but I wouldn't shy away from still playing aggressively with him.

I personally see characters more on a damage-dealer to objective-based spectrum, with tankiness being a separate quality more or less independent of role. Of course I say that after having used tank multiple times already in earlier posts...

28 minutes ago, Zetsubou said:

I personally see characters more on a damage-dealer to objective-based spectrum, with tankiness being a separate quality more or less independent of role. Of course I say that after having used tank multiple times already in earlier posts...

Certainly, this game is a little unorthodox in how it treats roles, which makes discussion on it pretty inconvenient. Characters are generally versatile enough that they could fit into multiple roles, and I think categories even as broad as "Support" tend to be kind of hard to prescribe in certain cases. Diala, for example, works great as a Support character- but she has many, many other talents as well.

But yeah, your method of looking specifically at combat (I assume mix of weapons and offensive abilities) vs objective running (a mix of movement/mitigation/defensive abilities, speed, and attribute tests) with defense (mix of defensive abilities, health, armor, defense die) as a separate (and in some ways, less important) entity. I actually think that's a pretty good way to measure characters.

9 hours ago, Zetsubou said:

Far from it. I do realize an additional red die is extremely impactful, but I don't find it more impactful than what he can bring to the game between picking up crates and winning missions with a test-heavy objective. Obviously there are missions where killing a stormtrooper a turn will be the deciding factor, but I find that consistent attribute tests, free interacts, and pushing blocking models are more significant (given your group composition already has two damage-oriented characters).

But that's just my take on the big guy. Only reason I brought any of it up in the first place is that his objective play doesn't seem to be discussed much when evaluating him as a hero pick.

There are very few tests in Jabba's Realm. Even outside of JR, you're still better off spending your first 8 XP on armor and DMMHU. If you don't get the armor he's too fragile and will be the first to wound out all the time. If you don't get DMMHU then his lack of other damage boost or way to get another attack is just going to leave you a dead spot in your group.

10 hours ago, Union said:

There are very few tests in Jabba's Realm. Even outside of JR, you're still better off spending your first 8 XP on armor and DMMHU. If you don't get the armor he's too fragile and will be the first to wound out all the time. If you don't get DMMHU then his lack of other damage boost or way to get another attack is just going to leave you a dead spot in your group.

That's fair. In all honesty I haven't played through all of JR yet, so I don't have much to add other than that, beyond the absolute best heroes, your team composition is already going to fluctuate based upon the demands of a current campaign and your own team composition. All I'm doing is making the argument that Onar has a significant build option (objective-based) that, in the right circumstances, can make him one of the better hero selections for a semi-support role.

Some early combos available:

Onar: buy an Hand Cannon and if you manage to win intro mission you'll soon have 4XP for Don't make me hurt you. It's a 3 red die roll at the 4th mission... insane damage comparable to a Tier 3. A Marksman Barrel or HH-4 Barrel are nice to increase range. In the following charts you'll find the percentage to score X damages past defense die consider:

(1) RED ==> Onar + Hand Cannon + Marksman Barrel + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).
(2) GREEN ==> Onar + Hand Cannon + Marksman Barrel + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).

On Tier 2 things can get even tougher. The 434 Deathammer with Plasma Cell is a much more efficient combo:

(1) RED ==> Onar + 434 Deathammer + Plasma Cell + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).
(2) GREEN ==> Onar + 434 Deathammer + Plasma Cell + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).

Awesome! 7 damage or more about 50% of times potentially at 5th mission and guaranteed accuracy 2 (like reach).

Shyla: Base weapon is great but as soon as you get Responsiveness you want RED+GREEN for both attacks, that GREEN-YELLOW is too bad. The obvious solution is BD-1 Vibro-Ax. If you manage to get Weighted Head and Full Sweep it's a potential of +7 cleave and if Gideon or Hera or anyone else can give you a surge it's potentially +8 cleave. Alternatively you can get a very likely +5 cleave if you use a Balanced Hilt instead of Weighted Head. Idea is to use Responsiveness, strain moves and/or Deadly Grace to get adjacent or anyway at reach range of one miniature and eventually use Whip to get another one in cleave range. Double attack can in theory make +15 cleave and not mitigate damage on one target but in a cheaper and more likely scenario +10 cleave with 2 attacks. Brilliant! Next purchase Electrostaff...

42 minutes ago, Golan Trevize said:

Some early combos available:

Onar: buy an Hand Cannon and if you manage to win intro mission you'll soon have 4XP for Don't make me hurt you. It's a 3 red die roll at the 4th mission... insane damage comparable to a Tier 3. A Marksman Barrel or HH-4 Barrel are nice to increase range. In the following charts you'll find the percentage to score X damages past defense die consider:

(1) RED ==> Onar + Hand Cannon + Marksman Barrel + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).
(2) GREEN ==> Onar + Hand Cannon + Marksman Barrel + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).

On Tier 2 things can get even tougher. The 434 Deathammer with Plasma Cell is a much more efficient combo:

(1) RED ==> Onar + 434 Deathammer + Plasma Cell + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).
(2) GREEN ==> Onar + 434 Deathammer + Plasma Cell + Don't make me hurt you + 1 BLACK die + target within base range (range 3).

Awesome! 7 damage or more about 50% of times potentially at 5th mission and guaranteed accuracy 2 (like reach).

Shyla: Base weapon is great but as soon as you get Responsiveness you want RED+GREEN for both attacks, that GREEN-YELLOW is too bad. The obvious solution is BD-1 Vibro-Ax. If you manage to get Weighted Head and Full Sweep it's a potential of +7 cleave and if Gideon or Hera or anyone else can give you a surge it's potentially +8 cleave. Alternatively you can get a very likely +5 cleave if you use a Balanced Hilt instead of Weighted Head. Idea is to use Responsiveness, strain moves and/or Deadly Grace to get adjacent or anyway at reach range of one miniature and eventually use Whip to get another one in cleave range. Double attack can in theory make +15 cleave and not mitigate damage on one target but in a cheaper and more likely scenario +10 cleave with 2 attacks. Brilliant! Next purchase Electrostaff...

I agree with Onar. Hand Cannon is great, but if you can wait, Deathhammer is even better. I also really like extra ammunition on Onar, to reroll the 1dmg side on the red.

As for Shyla, due to the strength of her base weapon, I typically skip tier 1 and 2 altogether and upgrade straight to Electrostaff in tier 3.

(I have now nerfed the Electrostaff in my own gamds, because it is OP on its own, and just broken when comboed with extra attacks such as Swords Dance or Brutal Cleave).

How do you rate new heroes? What Tier could they be?

34 minutes ago, Eyfrosyne said:

How do you rate new heroes? What Tier could they be?

I would have to play them again to be sure.

But based on my HotE campaign, I think both Jarrod and Drokkatta are A tier and Ko-Tun B tier (possibly B+).

-Jarrod gets the A tier rating entirely due to his Tankiness. He was incredibly hard to wound, and in a campaign where you can afford armor, even more so. His damage output is also quite strong due to his droid getting 2 BG attacks per round, tho that can drop if the imperial player targets the droid.

-Drokkatta takes all campaign to hit his full power, similar to Shyla or Verena. In the finale, Drokkatta took out a Probe Droid, 2 stormtroopers, would have taken out the E Officer if not for a poor roll, and did chip dmg on a couple other units, all in a single activation. His multi damage potential is scary. Extremely strain intensive, but there are ways to mitigate that.

Ko-Tun is good but frankly, the power tokens dont scale that well. They are very powerful early, but late in the campaign they are not so impactful (unless you are getting +2 from them), so that is why I think she is B tier (B tier does not mean bad, which is C tier).

1 hour ago, Deadwolf said:

Ko-Tun is good but frankly, the power tokens dont scale that well. They are very powerful early, but late in the campaign they are not so impactful (unless you are getting +2 from them), so that is why I think she is B tier (B tier does not mean bad, which is C tier).

Even if you go the Squad Cohesion route? I'd think that the ability to get surge power tokens could be pretty good later in the campaign, and the token sharing would be good at preventing anyone from being focused down (because you can add defensive tokens no matter who is getting attacked).

But I can also see how it would be tough for a bunch of minor damage boosts to keep up. Did you end up taking Fire Support Specialist? And did that help?

11 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

Even if you go the Squad Cohesion route? I'd think that the ability to get surge power tokens could be pretty good later in the campaign, and the token sharing would be good at preventing anyone from being focused down (because you can add defensive tokens no matter who is getting attacked).

But I can also see how it would be tough for a bunch of minor damage boosts to keep up. Did you end up taking Fire Support Specialist? And did that help?

In my campaign, I went full on hybrid. The thing with Squad Cohesion is that it gives you the 4 tokens, but the rest of it is situational(Even surge tokens as it kind of depends on the weapon and unlike dmg tokens there is a chance they dont do much). If it were a standard campaign i probably would have gotten both but in HotE you kind of have to choose. I did get Fire Support Specialist late, but I cant remember if i used actually used it.

But yeah, I'll fully admit that I am still not 100% where she stands.