Just for a bit of perspective, we are kind of blowing "oops we forgot to do this" out of a few proportions.

I agree with the above though, never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

It's both you have to tell him the first time, he has to make sure he suffers the mandatory effect each turn.

But you do have to make sure he doesn't skip it or it's a missed opportunity.

I'd love to believe no one would "forget" to gain an advantage but there's always TFG.

1) I'm a little concerned by how aggressive and frankly dismissively offensive you get when someone has a rules discussion with you.

I get that way when someone tries to argue the rules as they want to interpret them rather than how they're written.

My mistake, but no reason to be rude.

I wasn't being rude, I was pointing out that you were wrong. If have issues confusing the two, that isn't my fault.

4) There's precisely a timing window for rebel captive.

No again there isn't. It's an effect, not a triggered event, and a mandatory effect at that. The game would actually be put on hold with no one performing any other actions until after that effect has been processed. The fact that it got past that point is not a missed opportunity, it was mistake by both players for not following the rules.Again, based on your logic, any time someone forgets to do something, that's a missed opportunity. So forget to put on a stress after PtL or a red maneuver? Missed opportunity. Forget to roll damage when you hit an obstacle? Missed opportunity. Forget to put a damage card on your ship after resolving damage? Missed opportunity.

Implying I cannot read is pretty rude. Much more than simply correcting my error due to card errata.

Additionally in the post you chopped up I explicitly discuss ptl and red maneuvers but that discussion is not relevant to the picture of my argument you are attempting to paint I suppose.

Red maneuvers no, as stress is part of completing the manuever.

And stress is part of attacking a ship with Rebel Captive on it. They are per the rules exactly the same thing. You could argue that there's a timing window for the stress from a red maneuver same as there's one for Rebel Captive.

and legitimately should be the responsibility of the owner.

It is, as I and others have been saying this whole time, it's up to both players to remember things like that, and both quite naturally includes the owner.

There is however no excuse for someone to recognize that they should get stress and not do it, hoping the other guy doesn't notice and forgets.

Implying I cannot read is pretty rude.

The implication was that you had misquoted the rules. What you want to read into it is up to you, but I was not trying to imply that you can't read.

Nigel, I'm almost certain that you are wrong.

I think I have read replies to emails from designers somewhere on these forums, that how others explain the timing windows are correct.

In case you miss Mara Jade ability - that's missed opportunity.

But missed stress from Rebel Captive - you have to add that stress if you remember about the card later.

So actually, we all more or less agree on the same point. We are just wording it in mutually incompatible wording.

Next up, let's try organizing a piss up in a brewery...

To Sum:

It's the responsibility of both parties, with some emphasis on the card holder (for mandatory effects outside of basic mechanics) to maintain the game state, should a process be missed, try to work it out among yourselves, and if you can't in a tournament setting see a TO on how to resolve. In a casual setting work it out yourself. Maybe even have house rules.

Mistakes and accidents happen, no need to point fingers, call names etc Cause this stuff is easily, easily missed.

I told you all the story about how I was flying phantoms the post-faq way in casual games months before it was faq'ed right?

To Sum:

Sounds good to me. The only thing I'd add is that the players could and perhaps should try to work it out themselves first, and only call the TO over if they can't agree.

Fixed.

Both sides are definitely responsible for keeping track of mandatory effects. Both sides should also acknowledge any trigger opportunities that happen although if that trigger is not be beneficial to you it seems many are fine ignoring it and then blaming the one who missed the lost opportunity.

Something tells me I will not find many magic players here. ...snip...

I'm sure there are plenty of MtG players in this game as well. Of course a lot of them seem to be perfectly fine with sloppy play and casually ignoring triggers when it may be beneficial to them. How many of them actual stop to make sure an opponent is passing on a potential trigger but are just fine blowing right through it in this game.

I think regardless of who should be responsible for remembering, if any player at any time DOES remember, and it is at a point where game state hasn't been affected by it (before all dials have been placed for the next round), then I think arguing NOT to take the stress is probably you trying to cheat, even if you don't mean to be cheating.

I think we really need to nail this down, even with a specific ruling from FFG.

"Forgetting game mechanics that have been remembered at any point to reasonably correct them must be done. This includes resolving forgetten critical damage effects like Console Fire, or upgrade cards like Rebel Captive and Tactician that do not have a "may" or "Action:" in their text. This also includes assigning stress tokens from red maneuvers or removing actions accidentally taken by ships unable to perform actions on the current round (taking an action while stressed, blocked, affected by Damaged Sensor Array, or on the round a Conner Net has detonated on the ship). This also includes attempting to resolve the effects from Bossk and Greedo crew cards."

I'd also add:

"If reasonably able without affecting game state (example: already removing a ship from the board) players shall attempt to resolve forgetten dice effects like adding the bonus Attack or Agility dice from range bonuses or upgrade cards or effects that increase/decrease agility and attack power when the action or trigger to temporarily increase dice or stats has already been used (taking Expose action but forgetting to increase or decrease dice amounts)."

I MIGHT even add this:

"At some point in the future if a player is silly enough to reveal that they were completely aware that a mandatory game effect was forgetten (not enough Green dice used, Stress from Rebel Captive not assigned), then that player shall receive 1 swift smack in the face. Repeat offenses will result in shaming in a public setting, including, but not limited to FFG online forums or other internet mediums where said players online reputation matters the most to them."

This relates to the fair play/ honor thread.

It really shouldn't matter whose "responsibility" it is to assign the token. You should both be on it.

The only reason to want to know whose "responsibility" it is, is so that someone can "forget" to assign themselves a token and then when the mistake is discovered, claim that it wasn't their duty to remember.

Low character gameplay once again

Winning on technicalities is losing.

In my games, I remind my opponents about card effects they might have forgotten, or of they miss an action, I'll remind them to do it. Even in tournaments. Because that's how the GAME is meant to be PLAYED.

I think regardless of who should be responsible for remembering, if any player at any time DOES remember, and it is at a point where game state hasn't been affected by it (before all dials have been placed for the next round), then I think arguing NOT to take the stress is probably you trying to cheat, even if you don't mean to be cheating.

I think we really need to nail this down, even with a specific ruling from FFG.

"Forgetting game mechanics that have been remembered at any point to reasonably correct them must be done. This includes resolving forgetten critical damage effects like Console Fire, or upgrade cards like Rebel Captive and Tactician that do not have a "may" or "Action:" in their text. This also includes assigning stress tokens from red maneuvers or removing actions accidentally taken by ships unable to perform actions on the current round (taking an action while stressed, blocked, affected by Damaged Sensor Array, or on the round a Conner Net has detonated on the ship). This also includes attempting to resolve the effects from Bossk and Greedo crew cards."

I'd also add:

"If reasonably able without affecting game state (example: already removing a ship from the board) players shall attempt to resolve forgetten dice effects like adding the bonus Attack or Agility dice from range bonuses or upgrade cards or effects that increase/decrease agility and attack power when the action or trigger to temporarily increase dice or stats has already been used (taking Expose action but forgetting to increase or decrease dice amounts)."

I MIGHT even add this:

"At some point in the future if a player is silly enough to reveal that they were completely aware that a mandatory game effect was forgetten (not enough Green dice used, Stress from Rebel Captive not assigned), then that player shall receive 1 swift smack in the face. Repeat offenses will result in shaming in a public setting, including, but not limited to FFG online forums or other internet mediums where said players online reputation matters the most to them."

Hear hear. Totally agree.

Can't stand people who wouldn't abide by these rules. I'd play with you any day, bud.

Problem is this can segue into another argument where some would say" NO, I want to win because i didn't forget any cards, didn't need to be reminded..."

Granted, this is typically on examples like my TIE/D Ion cannon. Non-mandatory examples.

The water is a bit muddy here because these are examples that are mandatory but can and do get forgotten.

that's why this topic is 4 pages long, not 4 responses. Muddy waters at times.

Red maneuvers no, as stress is part of completing the manuever. Asteroids could be argued for certainly, as they have a timing window but nobody owns their effect and it's a basic rule of the game so it's a little unreasonable to forget or have your opponent not call you on it. I would say that ignoring asteroids probably is pretty hefty rules lawyering but technically correct if your opponent for some reason doesn't say anything.

Taking a stress is part of declaring an attack on a ship with Rebel Captive.

As a side note I'd like to say I don't try to ignore asteroids or stress from things but I do feel that captive is easy to forget is on the enemy ship and legitimately should be the responsibility of the owner. Mostly I take onus at people throwing around the word 'cheater' for something that is entirely defensible by the rules and in the case of captive most times likely accidental.

I wasn't calling you a cheater nor did I mean to imply that someone that honestly forgets to take a token when they are supposed to is cheating. I'm sorry if you took it that way,

My comment was leveled at players who purposefully do not take a stress token when shooting at a ship with Rebel Captive unless their opponent tells them to and use the "missed opportunity" rule to justify their actions.

It's a mandatory effect that doesn't require a player to invoke it. An effort should be made to correct the game state as long as the game hasn't progressed past the point that the mistake can be easily rectified. A missed Rebel Captive is easy to fix as long as the game hasn't progressed into the next Activation phase.

*Walks into the room and puts a cardboard icon representing the rebel captive at the base of the Imperial ship*.

"And this is how you ward off Murphy's Law."

*Walks out...*

Seriously, is there a rule against doing something as simple as this? Rebel Captive's timing (the card effect belongs to one player but is triggered by another) does make it vulnerable to Murphy's Law (if something can go wrong, it will), especially when you reach your 4th of 5th game of the day (nevermind reach the finals).

Just my 2 cents.

The only reason to want to know whose "responsibility" it is, is so that someone can "forget" to assign themselves a token and then when the mistake is discovered, claim that it wasn't their duty to remember.

I disagree, it's a honest and fair question. I think the original question got a bit lost, but it wasn't that IG88E was trying to get away with anything. Because it is fair to ask, who should be responsible in a somewhat odd case like Rebel Captive.

Most cases an effect is caused by the active players upgrades or abilities. Shoot someone with a ion weapon and you give them an ion token. Run over an asteroid and you roll the dice.

Rebel Captive is a bit odd, because it's a passive ability that happen on the other guys activation.

Because that's how the GAME is meant to be PLAYED.

Sorry but no it's not. There is no requirement even implied that you need to remind the other guy of his options. In fact the rules make it quite clear you're not expected to do so, which is the whole point of the Missed Opportunities rules.

It is also not poor sportsmanship if you don't. No one is obligized to help the other guy play his list effectively.

My comment was leveled at players who purposefully do not take a stress token when shooting at a ship with Rebel Captive unless their opponent tells them to and use the "missed opportunity" rule to justify their actions.

Same here.

*Walks into the room and puts a cardboard icon representing the rebel captive at the base of the Imperial ship*.

"And this is how you ward off Murphy's Law."

*Walks out...*

Seriously, is there a rule against doing something as simple as this? Rebel Captive's timing (the card effect belongs to one player but is triggered by another) does make it vulnerable to Murphy's Law (if something can go wrong, it will), especially when you reach your 4th of 5th game of the day (nevermind reach the finals).

Just my 2 cents.

That's totally legit. If I could find a small Han Solo in carbonite to put on my base, I'd do it in a second.

I'd also settle for a small Slave Leia.

This again.

Immediately upon attack, receive a stress token. It doesn't specify who, it just specifies hat it must occur.

Yes, this again. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone has an encyclopedic knowledge of this board and what may have been asked before. Questions will be asked, and asked again. No problem.

It is a mandatory effect, but it is your list, with your ship carrying your upgrade. Do you always expect your opponent to know every card you use? Treat it as something you have to do, just as easy and prevents opponents from forgetting.

No it is also about when your opponent knows what to do but intentionally ignore it (or playing dumb). But then having the opinion that it is the duty of the rebel captive player to order him to do so

So of us don't need to "play dumb". On new or rarely flown builds I have a hard enough time to remember what I'm flying let alone memorize what my opponent is using.

Something tells me I will not find many magic players here.

You'd be wrong, there's a lot of us. However the rules of MtG have nothing to do with X-Wing so you can't apply them here.There is no difference between getting a stress because you performed a red maneuver and getting one from rebel captive.

On this I disagree. If I make a red maneuver I KNOW I take a stress. It's there in front of me, red on black. If I can't remember what cards my opponent has and he doesn't remind me because he forgot there's the difference.

As far as being mandatory, it is, it's in the rules. How many times have you watched a video where a rule was broken or ignored and the player wasn't called on it BECAUSE his opponent didn't know of or recognize the violation?

In a perfect world we wouldn't be having this conversation. But since we have warm bodies designing this game (FAQ) and warm bodies playing this game (judges or T.O.s) mistakes will be made, opportunities missed and mandatory effects overlooked. Get use to it. If you need another example at how fallible we are just look at some of the threads dealing with new cards. There are people making mistakes while reading a dozen words. Without the stress of competition!

mistakes will be made, opportunities missed and mandatory effects overlooked.

You're right, and no one is claiming otherwise.

Can we stop now? This thread is stressing me out.

Can we stop now? This thread is stressing me out.

No more actions for you! Unless you forget that you're stressed of course.

Rules state its both sides responsibility.

But in practice opponents often forget as they did not make your list and are focused on executing their own strategies with their lists. I miss rebel captive more than I remember when I get real focused on my own team. Happens and its not intentional.

In reality it needs to be the responsibility of the player who is using the rebel captive in their lists. Its their team, their strategy they need to be responsible to execute it .

Again its not written that way atm, states both sides must remember mandatory effects. But it needs to change. In reality it already is changed most the time as opponents often forget that stupid effect anyways. You cant prove someone intentionally did not add the stress, but you could man up and take responsibility for your own lists.