Something tells me I will not find many magic players here.

You'd be wrong, there's a lot of us. However the rules of MtG have nothing to do with X-Wing so you can't apply them here.

There is no difference between getting a stress because you performed a red maneuver and getting one from rebel captive.

Mechanically no.

But there is one difference. One huge one. Massive actually.

Stress from a red maneuver is a basic game mechanic, stress from a card-proc is caused from a card sitting in a pile on one end of the table. In an ideal world, or again maybe on vassel (never use it). This isn't a big deal.

Real world, as per my previous responses. It can be.

Stress from a red maneuver is a basic game mechanic, stress from a card-proc is caused from a card sitting in a pile on one end of the table.

There's no effective difference between the two. In both cases you did something which per the rules cause your ship to get a stress. Why you're getting that stress quite simply doesn't matter in the least.

Someone can just as easily claim they 'forgot' to add a stress from a red maneuver as they can forget to do it from Rebel Captive.

Now I'd agree I'd likely be more forgiving as a TO of someone who forgets a stress from Rebel Captive then one who forgets after a red maneuver. But it is still up to both players to make as I said a good faith effort to make sure all the rules and mechanics are followed correctly.

There is no difference between getting a stress because you performed a red maneuver and getting one from rebel captive.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card. Abilities can be missed per the missed opportunity ruling. Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Ideally, yes, absolutely.. I'm not questioning that at all. My point is how the stress gets there. Let's compare Mr C. Aptive to say Mr F. Cannon.

I flachette at your TIE Fighter, my card. I make sure you get stress. (You don't have to make sure, dammit I am making sure!)

You red move, your move, you get stress. (I make sure)

You PTL. You put your stress on. (I make sure) If it's Soontir, well, you better make sure you remember to focus. I might remind you, if my head is up my ass and I am thinking about what I am doing next I might not.

You shoot at C.Aptive. In this instance, sorry, as owner of the C.Aptive card I make sure you get stressed.

Ideally, sure. Yes both people should be working to maintain the correct game state, I just feel vigilance should ultimately go to the guy with the cards in his hand.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card.

No it is not. Upgrade cards are part of the rules, they are not optional effects that you can apply or not as you wish, unless the card says so.

Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Rebel Captive can per the rules no more be missed then any other effect in the game.

Ideally, sure. Yes both people should be working to maintain the correct game state, I just feel vigilance should ultimately go to the guy with the cards in his hand.

And I'd agree. Speaking again as a TO, if a player told me that the other guy didn't put a stress on his ship after attacking something with Rebel Captive, and I look and they're already in the combat phase.

Well at that point it's too late to fix it, it doesn't matter who forgot it, it's not something that can be fixed. I'd also point out that it's as much his fault as anyone else's for not remembering the effect.

That said, if the other player admitted that he did remember but didn't put the stress on his ship "because it's not my job to remember" I'd give that player a warning for not following the rules.

I agree with the above assessment 100%

I agree with the above assessment 100%

Yeah I was pretty sure we were actually saying more or less the same thing, just talking past each other a bit.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card.

No it is not. Upgrade cards are part of the rules, they are not optional effects that you can apply or not as you wish, unless the card says so.

Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Rebel Captive can per the rules no more be missed then any other effect in the game.

It's hard discussing this with you since you have yet to really say anything to support your argument at all other than 'I as the TO get to determine what cards are abilities and what cards are just incorporated rules'. That seems quite arbitrary and pretty bad honestly.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card.

No it is not. Upgrade cards are part of the rules, they are not optional effects that you can apply or not as you wish, unless the card says so.

Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Rebel Captive can per the rules no more be missed then any other effect in the game.

It's hard discussing this with you since you have yet to really say anything to support your argument at all other than 'I as the TO get to determine what cards are abilities and what cards are just incorporated rules'. That seems quite arbitrary and pretty bad honestly.

Rules Reference, pg. 8:

'Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “Action:” or “Attack:” headers, the ability is mandatory and must be resolved.'

This game is not complicated. There is no reason that a player can't see cards directly across from them at 3 feet away.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card.

No it is not. Upgrade cards are part of the rules, they are not optional effects that you can apply or not as you wish, unless the card says so.

Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Rebel Captive can per the rules no more be missed then any other effect in the game.

It's hard discussing this with you since you have yet to really say anything to support your argument at all other than 'I as the TO get to determine what cards are abilities and what cards are just incorporated rules'. That seems quite arbitrary and pretty bad honestly.

It's not arbitrary. Any card with a "may" or the like in the wording falls under opportunistic missability. Anything without "may" or the like is not optional; it must be applied.

It's hard discussing this with you since you have yet to really say anything to support your argument

So you believe the upgrade cards are optional effects, that can be ignored at will, because they aren't actually rules?

Neither side has any responsibility to make sure that all mandatory effects are accounted for, apparently... Do you also believe that the other rules can be ignored as well?

Or is that you just don't understand what the word mandatory means?

This game is not complicated. There is no reason that a player can't see cards directly across from them at 3 feet away.

You'd think that. But what if say a CR90 is obscuring said players view, or the other player has the cards in his hand pondering them, or the original player is focused on his own cards/models.

Silly things like that.

Silly things like that.

That's why we have Judges, to make judgement calls when reality exerts itself on what is ideal.

In an ideal world, everyone will remember every effect and there will never be a incorrect game state. Reality is quite obviously different, so the players have to either work it out for themselves or get a 3rd party involved.

The issue I have is that nigeltastic seems to be trying to claim that mandatory effects aren't really mandatory and both sides aren't responsible to see them enforced. Even going as far as to seemingly claim that upgrade cards don't have the same requirement as rules do...

The card is hard ruled with no "may" So mechanically it's the same as reds, the flechette cannon, PTL'ing etc. My argument was separate and resolved. (and more about practical application).

Captive and in my opinion ruthless is a little trickier, as both players should be concentrating a bit more on spotting it. With captive, I stand by my card owner, card problem - but agree both sides should check process.

With ruthless, the opponent, not the card holder needs to be paying attention too.

Pointless analogy: The offside rule, and linesmen spotting it.

But this is factually false. One is a base game mechanic, and the other is an ability given by a card.

No it is not. Upgrade cards are part of the rules, they are not optional effects that you can apply or not as you wish, unless the card says so.

Rebel captive can, rules as written, be missed and I have yet to see someone actually give a rules reason as to why it can't be.

Rebel Captive can per the rules no more be missed then any other effect in the game.

It's hard discussing this with you since you have yet to really say anything to support your argument at all other than 'I as the TO get to determine what cards are abilities and what cards are just incorporated rules'. That seems quite arbitrary and pretty bad honestly.

Rules Reference, pg. 8:

'Unless a card ability uses the word “may” or has the “Action:” or “Attack:” headers, the ability is mandatory and must be resolved.'

Good, so we are on the same page that it is an ability and should be resolved. Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity. Nowhere in the missed opportunity section does it mention it doesn't apply to mandatory opportunities.

In fact, directly from the faq: "If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing

window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the

Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time."

Swarm tactics is in no way optional. It is mandatory and says may nowhere. This seems like a clear cut statement that rebel captive is entirely missable.

if it's my card I take that responsibility.

Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity.

Only to you. You are apparently using a different definition for mandatory then the rest of us.

"If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window"

There is no window here, there is an effect that must be applied. One that can be applied at any point after that. You could in fact apply it all the way upto the activation phase of that ship in the next turn.

Swarm tactics is in no way optional.

You don't even know what the cards say apparently. Yes Swarm Tactics is in fact optional, because it was errata'd with the word May on it.

We argue the semantics all you want. If I shoot at a ship with Rebel Captive on it and my opponent doesn't say anything about it and I shrug and move on, I may be able to rules lawyer my way into being right, but I'm still kind of a jerk.

Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity.

Only to you. You are apparently using a different definition for mandatory then the rest of us."If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window"There is no window here, there is an effect that must be applied. One that can be applied at any point after that. You could in fact apply it all the way upto the activation phase of that ship in the next turn.

Swarm tactics is in no way optional.

You don't even know what the cards say apparently. Yes Swarm Tactics is in fact optional, because it was errata'd with the word May on it.

1) I'm a little concerned by how aggressive and frankly dismissively offensive you get when someone has a rules discussion with you.

2) Sure, swarm tactics was errata'd. My mistake, but no reason to be rude.

3) I assure you I understand the word mandatory.

4) There's precisely a timing window for rebel captive. Immediately after the ship bearing it is shot.

5) Push the limit stress is entirely different here. For ptl you begin using the effect on the card so you finish resolving all effects on it.

6) Doing a red maneuver is the same as ptl. You begin performing the maneuver and complete all steps of it which include a stress.

7) Rebel captive is a game effect with a timing window which can be missed. Why is it being mandatory somehow exempting it from this, and additionally, why have you made the statement that it can be ignored if the game has moved too far? If mandatory was the above all rule that could never be ignored then people could very easily remind their opponent who just revealed a red maneuver that they shot the captive last turn and assign a dial for them. How does this get ruled and if any way other than in favor of the captive player how can you ignore the mandatory ruling?

Good, so we are on the same page that it is an ability and should be resolved. Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity. Nowhere in the missed opportunity section does it mention it doesn't apply to mandatory opportunities.

In fact, directly from the faq: "If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing

window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the

Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time."

Applying stress from a red maneuver and rolling for damage when hitting an asteroid are both also "game effects". If you "forget" to apply those effects at the right time and your opponent doesn't remind you before you move on to the next step, was that a missed opportunity?

1) I'm a little concerned by how aggressive and frankly dismissively offensive you get when someone has a rules discussion with you.

I get that way when someone tries to argue the rules as they want to interpret them rather than how they're written.

My mistake, but no reason to be rude.

I wasn't being rude, I was pointing out that you were wrong. If have issues confusing the two, that isn't my fault.

4) There's precisely a timing window for rebel captive.

No again there isn't. It's an effect, not a triggered event, and a mandatory effect at that. The game would actually be put on hold with no one performing any other actions until after that effect has been processed. The fact that it got past that point is not a missed opportunity, it was mistake by both players for not following the rules.

Again, based on your logic, any time someone forgets to do something, that's a missed opportunity. So forget to put on a stress after PtL or a red maneuver? Missed opportunity. Forget to roll damage when you hit an obstacle? Missed opportunity. Forget to put a damage card on your ship after resolving damage? Missed opportunity.

Good, so we are on the same page that it is an ability and should be resolved. Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity. Nowhere in the missed opportunity section does it mention it doesn't apply to mandatory opportunities.

In fact, directly from the faq: "If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing

window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the

Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time."

Applying stress from a red maneuver and rolling for damage when hitting an asteroid are both also "game effects". If you "forget" to apply those effects at the right time and your opponent doesn't remind you before you move on to the next step, was that a missed opportunity?

This

Good, so we are on the same page that it is an ability and should be resolved. Since that is the case it seems blatantly clear that as an ability rebel captive is entirely subject to being eligible to be a missed opportunity. Nowhere in the missed opportunity section does it mention it doesn't apply to mandatory opportunities.

In fact, directly from the faq: "If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing

window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the

Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a latter time."

Applying stress from a red maneuver and rolling for damage when hitting an asteroid are both also "game effects". If you "forget" to apply those effects at the right time and your opponent doesn't remind you before you move on to the next step, was that a missed opportunity?

Red maneuvers no, as stress is part of completing the manuever. Asteroids could be argued for certainly, as they have a timing window but nobody owns their effect and it's a basic rule of the game so it's a little unreasonable to forget or have your opponent not call you on it. I would say that ignoring asteroids probably is pretty hefty rules lawyering but technically correct if your opponent for some reason doesn't say anything.

As a side note I'd like to say I don't try to ignore asteroids or stress from things but I do feel that captive is easy to forget is on the enemy ship and legitimately should be the responsibility of the owner. Mostly I take onus at people throwing around the word 'cheater' for something that is entirely defensible by the rules and in the case of captive most times likely accidental.