Hey folks,

I'm no X-Wing expert, or veteran, but I really enjoyed the movement strategy part of the game. With the newer releases and ways to avoid stress, ignore stress, ignore obstacles etc., I feel like they are taking a major element out of the game. It has that WarHammer Fantasy Battles doom & gloom feel to it. Are they just dumbing down the game to make it a "Beer & Pretzels" activity??

Now it could be just my lack of knowledge about what the newer cards/ships/pilots actually do, but does anyone else see it this way? If I am missing something, please fix my thinking. I am not trying to start a forum battle royal here, I am just looking for clarification.

Thanks

Shaner

A) It's always been a "beer 'n pretzels" game.

B) This is a game of simple systems and interesting ways to break the rules. That's kind of how game design works.

C) no matter what rule a unit breaks, poor play will still cause you to lose.

I think you have a little misconception there. Yes these elements that allow you to bend or break certain mechanics exist. However you pay in squad points for that, so general game balance is not in danger...

the great thing about this game is that you can just choose whatever ships/upgrades/pilots you fly with. Don't like the new stuff? just play with the first few waves there is more than enough to play for hours and hours without having to buy or play with all the new goodies at least that's the way I see it... fly casual and most importantly have fun!

redneck Biggs seems to think so

more seriously, they took the X-wing out of X-wing after the core-set launched with the X being mathematically inferior to the more maneuverable Tie Fighter

the T-70 expac is the start of FFG fixing the **** thing with Integrated Astromech. The developers promised more, likely along the lines of the Imp Vet. expac

as for newer things, just no

the only thing that blatantly ignores game mechanics and turns it into something as unpleasant as Warhammer is the PWT, and that ****'s been out since Wave 2

Even pilots such as Dash, who ignores obstacles, gets other constrains to keep him in line (lack of defensive tech, range 1 deadzone when using HLC + Outrider)

One of the best things about X-wing is how simple it is. As someone who'd just left 40k, not having to read a 300 page manual full of special rules, caveats and new versions every few years, X-wing was a breath of fresh air.

The fact X-wing can be both 'Beer and Pretzels' and a well-balanced competitive game is a testament to the great job FFG have done with it.

Yeah ... its only "Wing" now ... until they take away the "W".

I've been playing X-Wing since 2014. I'm not an expert, though I've won several tournaments. In my opinion, X-wing is, most importantly, a PvP game. So, limitations like red/green maneuvers balance, action economy, getting stress, removing stress, obstacles etc. are merely a battlefield for two players to compete in tactical skill.

Each wave we receive more and more powerful ships with awesome abilities, but the universal truth of X-Wing remains the same: if you are more skillful, you win. You don't win because you have bought a huge anount of new Eldar jetbikes (yes, I've eventually quit 40K due to the absence of balance), you win because you understand action economy better than your opponent and you can predict your opponent's maneuvers.

Even better, what we all have seen today is a solid 'patch' for underperforming bomber and defender, which means even more diverse meta. Now, does it have anything to do with beer & pretzels?

The X is out. Now it's all about the D.

Beer and Pretzels? This game as always been fun to play and fairly easy grasping the rules and ship abilities so it kind of of Beer and Pretzels to a degree.

BUT!!! Don't think just because it seems easy it is. It can be easy absolutely! But it can be a very deep deck squad building game. It is unlikely that new players have a fair chance to know what naturally goes with what. There are things that are nearly auto-include and others that just make the ship excel. Then there are others that you'd think 'this will be cool' only to find out it doesn't work out nearly as well. I found that out with Marksman which I always thought looked like a good card.

So it is both an easy game but with the amount of depth and ability to modify the rules though upgrades the actual deck building process can be quite a task.

Play wise, it is still easy and fun. Gotta love Star Wars

P.S. Careful with your topic headers. There are many bemoaning the X-Wing being mathematically inferior to a B-Wing and a few other ships. That topic 'Taking X-Wing (the ship) out of X-Wing (the game) is hotly debated and many will join and post regardless of what you're referring to.

Well, Dash 'broke' the game back in Wave 5, so I don't really agree. Plus to be honest, I think that stress needs to have some more counters to it in the game, as it's currently very powerful, and fairly straight forward to lay on your opponent (Mara, R3-A2, Tacitican, Flechette, etc.) If you want to spend some of your precious points on coming prepared to mitigate stress, then you should have that opportunity, at the cost of a more inefficient lista vs an opponent who has no control element in their list. It's just a continuation of the design principles that have served FFG so well to date.

FFG seem to be showing an impressive knack where they're already writing into the the game a counter to what we as a community of players are discovering to be the dominant mechanic. I admire that, it indicates a vision of where the game is and where it's going, so maybe they deserve a bit more of our trust.

The X is out. Now it's all about the D.

well, there's Tie/x1 and Tie/x7...

T-70-X-wing...okay, just Poe

no, we all know the real name of the game is TIE Defender: The Miniatures Game

Now can we stop saying the sky is falling and go back to praising our lord and savior the Defender??

no, we all know the real name of the game is TIE Defender: The Miniatures Game

Now can we stop saying the sky is falling and go back to praising our lord and savior the Defender??

Hm ... I could live with that name I guess

- The two top squads at the 2015 World Championship had X-wings in them, so "X" is definitely NOT out of the game.

- You are arguing that upgrades that affect stress and obstacle interactions "dumb down" the game? This doesn't make sense to me. They add an extra level of strategy and sophistication that take the game far out of the beer and pretzels realm IMO. Many of the top players rely heavily on stress dealing and stress mitigation tactics. The new cards coming up will increase the number of strategies available.

- Can you articulate what "major element" of the game is being removed by upgrades and pilot abilities that affect stress and obstacle interctions?

no, we all know the real name of the game is TIE Defender: The Miniatures Game

Now can we stop saying the sky is falling and go back to praising our lord and savior the Defender??

i just got my first one, and am quite enjoying Mr Rexler, but inteceptors man...... they my fav.

- The two top squads at the 2015 World Championship had X-wings in them, so "X" is definitely NOT out of the game.

- You are arguing that upgrades that affect stress and obstacle interactions "dumb down" the game? This doesn't make sense to me. They add an extra level of strategy and sophistication that take the game far out of the beer and pretzels realm IMO. Many of the top players rely heavily on stress dealing and stress mitigation tactics. The new cards coming up will increase the number of strategies available.

- Can you articulate what "major element" of the game is being removed by upgrades and pilot abilities that affect stress and obstacle interctions?

Oh, sure....the "Major Element" was movement/action ability. With some of the new upgrades/updates some ships will be able to ignore stress and still be able to pull off red manouvres while stressed. The reason I had mentioned "Dumbing Down" was that when you can ignore core rules because of an upgrade (ie: stress) and still pull off any manouvre, I just felt that it removed part of the thinking/planning aspect of the game.

All this being said, I am gaining a lot from your comments. I didn't realize that one of the upgrades (...ability to ignore stress...) only applied to movement. You still keep the stress token and still cannot complete an action. So that's not so bad. (This was pointed out in a PM...thanks).

the above is actually a great point about the new Hera (crew) that people did overlook

Hera lets you use every maneuver on the ghost's expansive dial without consequence...as long as you're happy with never performing an action again

which you can be, as FCS + Ezra give you re-rolls + "focus" even while stressed, but 16 health and 0 agi goes down fast and it's only really viable as a semi-cheap (43 points) railgun, instead of a super-boost fat ship

It has that WarHammer Fantasy Battles doom & gloom feel to it.

Ha! no.

Now it could be just my lack of knowledge about what the newer cards/ships/pilots actually do

Yeah, probably.

the above is actually a great point about the new Hera (crew) that people did overlook

Hera lets you use every maneuver on the ghost's expansive dial without consequence...as long as you're happy with never performing an action again

which you can be, as FCS + Ezra give you re-rolls + "focus" even while stressed, but 16 health and 0 agi goes down fast and it's only really viable as a semi-cheap (43 points) railgun, instead of a super-boost fat ship

Yeah...exactly. When I first read someone's post concerning her, I thought you just shed the stress. I hadn't seen the card. So, that's one of the reasons for this posted topic....to learn about the negatives of the upgrades.

I actually think it's becoming the opposite - where the effort and knowledge to know the options available are making the game harder and harder to enter.

Easy to Learn

Difficult to master.

This game has always been about basic rules being trumped by special rules, hardly a new concept. Hell, so many of us are GW refugees, 40K has been about doing that since at least 2nd ed. Definitely 3rd plus.

X-wing has had it since wave 1. R2 droids, ignore those red turns.

Vader. Ignore that only one action.

Biggs. Ignore choosing your target.

I actually think it's becoming the opposite - where the effort and knowledge to know the options available are making the game harder and harder to enter.

Some have actually said this. I wish there was a go to list for the right upgrade with which pilots. As soon as you say the word 'Auto-Include' people start debating and saying there is no such thing. But if you ask would you ever take an Interceptor without Autothrusters 99.99% say never fly an Interceptor without Autothrusters. Knowing the right build is great if you like deck building and want that to be a very big part of the game, many do. Some more casual players feel a bit over whelmed at knowing what the good synergy is from one pilot to another and with what upgrade on whom.

Me I'm in between. I like the feel of the game and general game play. I like the different abilities on the different pilots and love some of there upgrades. It adds character and depth and as a rule I'm not fond of deck building. It takes something away from building your own squad. But for casual players there are just so many options it is difficult remember all of the good combos. And new players have no chance of knowing good builds.

The game is easy to play; difficult to build (unless you net deck which I strongly recommend) and has a great feel for Star Wars fighter combat.

Abilities like Ignoring stress and the planning phase have been around since wave 2, with Tycho and imperial Boba with navigator (called Fettigator), but they really didn't see much use because these usually a better option. The one thing you should keep in mind is the opportunity cost of these effects, you're usually choosing to not take a more offensive/defensive action or, during squad building, a more offensive/defensive upgrade.

The last time I faced Dash (with Nein Numb) the player barrel rolled off an asteroid about 2 out of three turns, so he rarely had the focus he needed to deal any damage. So yeah, he didn't have to use any skill in planning his maneuvers but he also lost 100-0.

I'm not sure i'd agree with the net decking recommendation. A lot of these combos while seen as net decking are really logical conclusions.

Interceptors with PTL (before autothrusters, did you ever see non alphas without this?) and the new ubiquitous autothrusters are hardly huge jumps.

Back when I started, I thought I was SO clever thinking 7 TIE's and a runner or 8 ties was a great list, as well as 4 y-wings with ions (I would have lost my mind over TLT's!)

Vader>ATC>PRED>EU spotting for Vessery? Obvious choice, didn't need someone on the net/this board to tell me that.

Brobots are a netlist in their selves, because you will almost always take the two.

Putting palp on a naked shuttle and running 2 aces? Not a stretch.

3PO on a Falcon? my friend does this and doesn't even read about x-wing, know all the card combos.