Okay, here's the first crack at a school!

I have to admit, I was hoping I could create these things mostly by stapling together existing spells into a five-rank progression. I may be able to do that in some places (this one comes pretty close), but overall, I don't think I'll be able to; there are too many places where I'll have to hybridize things or tweak the power level up or down or just come up with something that isn't really A, B, or C, but aims for the same general target. But when a particular technique is akin to an existing spell, I'll put the name in parentheses with a tilde.

***

KUNI SHUGENJA

Rank One -- The Kuni learn to call upon the unsullied power of jade, channeling it into a burst of pure, sacred energy that burns Tainted targets. (~Jade Strike)

Rank Two -- The power of jade can protect an area from Tainted incursions, harming those who enter or even holding them back entirely. (~Ward of Purity)

Rank Three -- When the Crab venture into the Shadowlands, the training of the Kuni guards them against corruption. (~Strength of the Crow)

Rank Four -- Some among the Kuni are capable of burning the Taint out where it has already taken hold. (~Purge the Taint, likely scaled up to give a benefit when cast on living creatures: possibly a re-roll vs. Taint if cast soon enough, or maybe removing it at the cost of a rank of Earth if cast within a slightly longer span of time. "Longer" would mean "a few hours" at best, not days/weeks/months/years.)

Rank Five -- Masters of the Kuni can stop Shadowlands creatures in their tracks, imprisoning them for later disposal. (~Tomb of Jade, Major Binding, or Prison of Earth; something like that. Possibly I will move this down to R4 and move ~Purge the Taint up to R5.)

***

As you can see, this is still mechanics-free. In this particular instance I may wind up using most of the numbers from the actual spells, but I don't know for sure yet -- I feel like I need to get most or all of the technique effects in place before I'll know how I want to approach the mechanics. Right now I'm leaning toward saying that techs are rolled with different skills and Traits, while the spells available to everybody are rolled with School Rank / Ring in the usual way, but who knows.

Kitsu may be next.

Amazing work, Kinzen! I specially like how the purity levels turned out, I'll most probably implement them in my games immediately.

Now, I had to read all the posts in this topic quick, so I might have missed something, but I think you said something about making the spells resistible by the targets? If yes, the purity levels could influence this as well. Pure people would probably have greater resistance against certain effects (like maho) than sullied people, for example. My free time has been mostly non-existent lately, but if you need help with anything, just give me a call!

Now, I had to read all the posts in this topic quick, so I might have missed something, but I think you said something about making the spells resistible by the targets? If yes, the purity levels could influence this as well. Pure people would probably have greater resistance against certain effects (like maho) than sullied people, for example.

I haven't tried to tackle that yet, because I'll need to have a solid body of "here's what people can do" (be it via techs or spells) before I can really gauge how I ought to manage resistance. It definitely bugs me that the vast majority of spells currently have no resistance mechanic at all -- but the new arrangement will have many fewer offensive spells to begin with, so resisting will be less of an issue. I imagine that debuffs may well have something in that vein, though.

Maho . . . is another can of worms entirely. O_O

Having resistance and counter-magic baked in from the start would certainly cure some ills on balance, I think.

Time for the Kitsu! I stalled out on them for a while because there was no spell that really begged to be used for their R3, and I don't think ancestor-related effects should be solely the domain of the Kitsu. But while I was out running errands today, I came up with an idea I really liked, so here's the draft:

***

KITSU SHUGENJA

Rank One -- The shugenja beseeches the target's ancestors to grant their blessing. The target gains a single reroll to use on a School Skill roll at any point during the scene. Targets wholly trained outside of their own clan receive no benefit.

Rank Two -- The shugenja draws the attention of the ancestors to the target's shortcomings (~Judgement of Yomi; I may remove the warding effect and expand the penalty effect to compensate.)

Rank Three -- The shugenja strengthens the connection of the target to their lineage, temporarily increasing the family Trait bonus by +1.

Rank Four -- Although the Kitsu (like most shugenja) avoid engaging in combat, they are still Lion, and will fight when they must. The shugenja calls on a shiryo to possess them, manifesting spectral sword and armor and gaining temporary weapon skill ranks. (~Defender from Beyond, but the shiryo isn't a separate entity on the field)

Rank Five -- Such is the influence of the Kitsu with the denizens of Yomi that they can persuade an ancestor to bestow or suspend their blessing on the target. Temporarily grants an Ancestor Advantage (with a lower TN if it's the same family; no out-of-clan Ancestors) or blocks the Advantage the target possesses (with a lower TN if it's a different family).

***

That feels specific enough to me that it makes for interesting, Kitsu-flavored techniques, without annexing the whole space; other shugenja will still be to commune with ancestors, beg for minor bonuses, etc. Thoughts?

Good work! I like the Kitsu a lot. I was slightly concerned, looking at the Kuni, that 'techniques' were going to end up looking much like existing prayers, but the Kitsu techs go a long way to alleviating that concern. I should say that I have absolutely no idea how balanced it is (if nothing else, it would have to be examined in the context of the other shugenja schools, and even then I would not be the right person to judge mathematical effectiveness and so on), but I like it in principle. Just a few thoughts for now:

1) The R5 technique could possibly be expanded to allow for the inflicting of a Haunted Disadvantage, as well as/instead of enabling/blocking the Ancestor Advantage. In my experience, many games disallow Ancestor Advantages (because they're horribly imbalanced), so that R5 would cause problems in those games (either enabling something that is otherwise banned, or disabling something which is already necessarily not present). Also, the Ancestor Advantages are of quite significantly differing point-values and utilities (the Moshi Ancestor is incredibly useful in some very specific circumstances, and utterly useless in most others; the Bayushi Ancestor is generally extremely useful; and so on and so forth), so the technique as written is somewhat unreliable. Haunted is of lower value, and probably wouldn't merit an R5 technique, but it is at least consistent in its effects, and I've never known a game to ban it outright, even if it often comes with warnings or conditions.

2) I don't mind the ability to commune with ancestor spirits on a basic level being available to all other shugenja, but I feel like Kitsu should be able to do so more effectively, reliably, or thoroughly than most. Granted, in-setting, that's partly a byproduct of their having access to the Hall of Ancestors, Shinden Yuisho, and so on; but it is still a thing. I would almost be inclined to make their R1 tech a passive trait that improves their ability to use Commune With Ancestors (or whatever that prayer ends up being called); let them talk for longer, be more specific in choosing whom they talk to, or whatever. That doesn't deprive anyone else of the ability to use the prayer, it just makes Kitsu better at it, which they frankly should be.

3) There's an interesting mixture of buffs and penalties in the school as it stands- I wouldn't mind having every rank (except R1 with the improved Ancestral Communion, and R4 with the combat improvements) provide the option to do either, even in a weakened form, rather than having them do one or the other. It would obviously have to be balanced pretty carefully, but I think it could provide a useful illustration of the ability of the Ancestors (and, indirectly, the Kitsu) to both provide and actively withhold support.

4) As a more general point, but with the Kitsu/Sodan Senzo as a specific triggering point for me- are Advanced Schools intended to remain a thing? Obviously I'm not asking for them right now, as you are already being far too generous with your time and effort, but with the redesign of how shugenja work, it does raise the question; and if Advanced Schools do exist, then it raises the question of what kinds of techniques might be left for them.

5) Even more generally, are 'secret prayers' known only to one or a few schools/Families still going to be a thing? In the current system, their treatment is highly inconsistent and generally in need of improvement; in your rework, it would be possible to incorporate at least some of them (like Judgement of Yomi) into the school techs themselves, but that doesn't entirely remove them as a feature of the setting. Is the idea to do away with secret prayers entirely, so that all prayers distinct from the School Techniques themselves can be learned by any shugenja, or will there still be some firewalling of prayers based on school/Family/rank/piety/whatever?

As always, many thanks for your work, and I look forward to the next instalment!

Good work! I like the Kitsu a lot. I was slightly concerned, looking at the Kuni, that 'techniques' were going to end up looking much like existing prayers, but the Kitsu techs go a long way to alleviating that concern.

It's easier for me to design if I can repurpose existing stuff, but not everything will be done that way.

I should say that I have absolutely no idea how balanced it is (if nothing else, it would have to be examined in the context of the other shugenja schools, and even then I would not be the right person to judge mathematical effectiveness and so on)

Given the total lack of actual numbers right now, any judgment of balance would be, uh, premature. :-) I'm not going to stat anything until I know more of *what* I'm statting, so I can calibrate balance accordingly.

1) The R5 technique could possibly be expanded to allow for the inflicting of a Haunted Disadvantage, as well as/instead of enabling/blocking the Ancestor Advantage.

Haunted only inflicts -1k1 on a single roll per session, so I feel like temporarily inflicting it would be kind of pointless (at least for a R5).

In my experience, many games disallow Ancestor Advantages (because they're horribly imbalanced), so that R5 would cause problems in those games (either enabling something that is otherwise banned, or disabling something which is already necessarily not present). Also, the Ancestor Advantages are of quite significantly differing point-values and utilities (the Moshi Ancestor is incredibly useful in some very specific circumstances, and utterly useless in most others; the Bayushi Ancestor is generally extremely useful; and so on and so forth), so the technique as written is somewhat unreliable.

The starting TN for the tech would probably be based on the point value of the Ancestor, so that higher-value ones would be much more difficult to bestow. But I'm honestly not inclined to worry too much about accommodating house rules from other people's campaigns -- especially since, y'know, if the entire bloody system is getting redesigned from the ground up, assuming Ancestors will stay verbatim as they were is probably jumping the gun. :-)

2) I don't mind the ability to commune with ancestor spirits on a basic level being available to all other shugenja, but I feel like Kitsu should be able to do so more effectively, reliably, or thoroughly than most. Granted, in-setting, that's partly a byproduct of their having access to the Hall of Ancestors, Shinden Yuisho, and so on; but it is still a thing. I would almost be inclined to make their R1 tech a passive trait that improves their ability to use Commune With Ancestors (or whatever that prayer ends up being called); let them talk for longer, be more specific in choosing whom they talk to, or whatever. That doesn't deprive anyone else of the ability to use the prayer, it just makes Kitsu better at it, which they frankly should be.

The Kitsu are one of the schools I'll have to circle back to once I start working on the actual prayers. Until I have those in place, I can't say for sure whether I'll want to tweak these techs to interlock with those.

3) There's an interesting mixture of buffs and penalties in the school as it stands- I wouldn't mind having every rank (except R1 with the improved Ancestral Communion, and R4 with the combat improvements) provide the option to do either, even in a weakened form, rather than having them do one or the other. It would obviously have to be balanced pretty carefully, but I think it could provide a useful illustration of the ability of the Ancestors (and, indirectly, the Kitsu) to both provide and actively withhold support.

I'll consider that.

4) As a more general point, but with the Kitsu/Sodan Senzo as a specific triggering point for me- are Advanced Schools intended to remain a thing? Obviously I'm not asking for them right now, as you are already being far too generous with your time and effort, but with the redesign of how shugenja work, it does raise the question; and if Advanced Schools do exist, then it raises the question of what kinds of techniques might be left for them.

I do intend for advanced schools to still be a thing, yes. But I have *no* clue what the Sodan-Senzo techs will look like, since their existing mechanics are a classic case of stuff I think all shugenja should be able to learn to do.

5) Even more generally, are 'secret prayers' known only to one or a few schools/Families still going to be a thing? In the current system, their treatment is highly inconsistent and generally in need of improvement; in your rework, it would be possible to incorporate at least some of them (like Judgement of Yomi) into the school techs themselves, but that doesn't entirely remove them as a feature of the setting. Is the idea to do away with secret prayers entirely, so that all prayers distinct from the School Techniques themselves can be learned by any shugenja, or will there still be some firewalling of prayers based on school/Family/rank/piety/whatever?

Secret prayers as such won't be a thing; that's what the techniques are for. But there may be something (probably keyword-based) which makes it so that certain schools can learn a given type of prayer more easily/perform it better -- I'll be looking at that once I start working on the prayers themselves. (In which case there might be an "Ancestor" keyword or something like that which the Kitsu will be better at, rather than writing it specifically into their techniques.)

A more than satisfactory response. With regards to Haunted, the intention wasn't for it to be a precise copy of the technique, more just something that could produce a roughly similar effect, both as part of the wider theme of having both benefits and penalties to bestow at every rank and to deal with people without Ancestors (though, as an aside, a game in which everyone was obliged to have an Ancestor would be fun, with or without Kitsu involved). But you are obviously right that it would make little sense if copied verbatim. Otherwise thank you as always for the response, and carry on the good work!

Here's a poll, as I think it might help me deal with some of the other schools if I could make a decision once and for all as to where this kind of effect should go.

There's a whole category of 4e magic that I think of as "bender spells" -- which is to say, stuff that would not look out of place in Avatar: The Last Airbender , because the shugenja is flinging around the raw material of an element for one effect or another (be it damage or Knockdown or whatever). I'm going to be massively reducing the presence of that kind of thing in this redesign, but I'm inclined to keep some form of it around; the question is, which school should get it. Which group do you think that kind of concept fits with best?

1) the Tamori

2) the Agasha

3) the Isawa

4) the Elemental Guard

Note that I'm not asking which existing school technique is the closest match. I mean the families/schools themselves, the general sense of who they are and what kind of things they're interested in.

(This question brought to you by me staring at the Yoritomo draft and trying to figure out whether I should just categorically remove all the "slap people around with air" spells, thus leaving myself with a much shorter list of possible effects to choose from.)

Given the philosophical basis of your redesign, I would give it to the Agasha. Under the current system, or with my interpretation of the cosmology, I would be inclined to give it to the Isawa, since they are the ones with the best understanding of the spirits- but since the kami are largely being treated as conduits for accessing greater powers, and the Isawa are all about Theology and so on, I would rather see the Isawa given a 'higher-level' (not power-wise, obviously, but cosmology-wise) focus. The Agasha, who are focused very heavily on the elemental kami themselves (and have a predilection for transferring effects from one Element to another, as well as using quasi-alchemy on them), would seem the best fit for raw elemental magic. The Tamori seem, fluff-wise, to be more about using the mountains than 'earth kami' per se, although they do also use alchemy of a kind.

The Elemental Guard is also an obvious candidate, given their name, and I would certainly give them some similar mechanics, but I wouldn't be giving them a whole school, and it would seem to rather defeat the purpose of confining all the 'bender spells' to one place if they were all crammed into one Path/Advanced School.

Just my opinion- probably better to let people with a special fondness for the Phoenix contribute, really

Current System:

The Tamori are all about their Alchemy and combat. Elemental effects could be an aspect of the alchemy, but it doesn't quite fit the mental image I have.

The Agasha are all about their combined-element spells. I might be interested in seeing elemental effects that are slightly twisted from the 4 major elements (Storm, Ice, Metal, Plant?). Pure elemental effects like Bending don't quite meet their "we're mixing elements!" fluff.

The Isawa are generalists. Yes, they're the best with spells in general, and individuals may be excellent at a specific element, but their school reaches across too many fields to offer that level of focus.

My vote goes to giving the Elemental Guard the Bending Prayers in their focused field.

================================================

Your more theologically-focused system:

Tamori are Dragons. The Dragon are all about personal enlightenment, and internal perfection. I would probably have their techniques focused around buffing themselves or their allies. Maybe mental effects, more than physical.

Agasha: They still need something that differentiates them from Isawa. I'd personally love to see them maintaining their efforts to combine different fields of magic (Persuading Ancestors to wield the elemental kami, perhaps?)

Isawa: I still see their school as generalists. They each know the most about the broadest spectrum of topics, but their knowledge about any specific field might be weaker than that of a specialist.

Elemental Guard: The Specialists of the Phoenix. I still think I can toss a vote in favor of them receiving Bending skills.

Hmm, any of those options could make sense, but I'm kind of reluctant to sacrifice the already-existing flavor of the Tamori and Agasha schools for Bender stuff. The Isawa school I'm not as fond of, but leaving a school for generalists might be nice (though probably hard to balance).

Elemental Guard seems like a good option, but the problem with that one is that a lot of people are fond of flashy Bender-style magic, and relegating it to a path/advanced school will annoy them. (Just for the record, I'm not one of the flashy, high-magic types myself, but I'm trying to look at this from all angles.)

In 3rd ed "Isawa Tensai" was a basic school. Maybe that could be resurrected as a place to lump the Bender stuff? Then the people who want that playstyle won't have to grind through a few insight ranks before they can cast the magic they wanted from the beginning.

So if you're willing to take write-in options, my vote is Isawa Tensai. Otherwise, either Elemental Guard or Isawa Shugenja.

Elemental Guard seems like a good option, but the problem with that one is that a lot of people are fond of flashy Bender-style magic, and relegating it to a path/advanced school will annoy them. (Just for the record, I'm not one of the flashy, high-magic types myself, but I'm trying to look at this from all angles.)

Players of that type are likely to be disappointed by this entire approach to begin with, since reducing the prevalence of that kind of thing is a major part of what I'm aiming for. :-P But I should remind people that it doesn't really matter what those hypothetical players think: this is not official, it will never be official, and there's going to come a point where I'll have to start waving my hands vaguely in the direction of "put together the mechanics yourself if you really want to," since the alternative is to make available a version of L5R that's playable enough to get me into legal trouble.

Hi,

I just spent a while reading your stuff and then realised that I already had a sign in to the fora here I have a number of thoughts and ideas, having been playing shugenja since 1st ed

Can I offer a suggestion for your benders outside of the options you proposed?

Asako monks

After that, I think Elemental Legions. IIRC, they were virtually depicted in that way in Clan War.

There was a comment made by someone about the celestial hierarchy which suddenly clicked in my mind with your desire to keep Master Levels for spells.

Shugenja talk to the atomic kami, and that's basically it. However, higher ranked Shugenja are seen as more elevated in the hierarchy and can persuade these little kami to go and request favours off increasingly powerful spirits. So, kinda:

Rank 1: Just the elemental kami

Rank 2: Spirits that reside in Ningen-do but are more than just elemental kami: ghosts, Mikokami etc

Rank 3: Ancestor spirits, Least fortunes

Rank 4: Lesser Fortunes, Oracles or revered ancestors

Rank 5: The Kami, Elemental Dragons or Major Fortunes

That probably requires a fair bit more work to line things up correctly, but it could be used as a basis of the prayers. Asking for the Blessing of Kaze-no-kami is only something a Rank 4 or higher Shugenja can do, whereas Whispers of the Land could be done by a Rank 2 Shugenja.

A final though, on purity. Shugenja and Monks are said to spend days purifying themselves before carrying out major undertakings and suchlike. As written currently, that would not have any effect. Likewise, bushi are said to go and receive a blessing after combat to bring them back to their normal level of spiritual harmony. Since their default is already the lowest level, again this does nothing. Maybe there should be a level at the top and a level at the bottom.

Cleansed : Achieved through complete abstinence, this level of spiritual purity cannot be maintained for very long (save by Henshin?) but grants bonuses when dealing with prayers.

Unclean : Default for Bushi. Eat meat, consume alcohol etc

Defiled : No samurai while remain like this voluntarily. Having touched a dead body or blood. Having been in the Shadowlands. Tainted.

PS where's the best place to comment about skills and the Three Pillars?

Elemental Guard seems like a good option, but the problem with that one is that a lot of people are fond of flashy Bender-style magic, and relegating it to a path/advanced school will annoy them. (Just for the record, I'm not one of the flashy, high-magic types myself, but I'm trying to look at this from all angles.)

Players of that type are likely to be disappointed by this entire approach to begin with, since reducing the prevalence of that kind of thing is a major part of what I'm aiming for. :-P But I should remind people that it doesn't really matter what those hypothetical players think: this is not official, it will never be official, and there's going to come a point where I'll have to start waving my hands vaguely in the direction of "put together the mechanics yourself if you really want to," since the alternative is to make available a version of L5R that's playable enough to get me into legal trouble.

Well, that's true. Certainly, a GM who likes flashy spells isn't going to use this system. But, as a GM who likes this system so far and might use it in a campaign, it would be nice to have a bone to throw to players who enjoy those kinds of spells. It's hard to engage a player who thinks his own character is boring, after all.

Can I offer a suggestion for your benders outside of the options you proposed?

Asako monks

After that, I think Elemental Legions. IIRC, they were virtually depicted in that way in Clan War.

The Elemental Legions are the Shiba, aren't they? The Elemental Guard are the shugenja, which is why I proposed them.

Henshin . . . it doesn't feel right to me. They should be more about internal perfection than heaving the landscape about. :-P

There was a comment made by someone about the celestial hierarchy which suddenly clicked in my mind with your desire to keep Master Levels for spells.

Shugenja talk to the atomic kami, and that's basically it. However, higher ranked Shugenja are seen as more elevated in the hierarchy and can persuade these little kami to go and request favours off increasingly powerful spirits. So, kinda:

Rank 1: Just the elemental kami

Rank 2: Spirits that reside in Ningen-do but are more than just elemental kami: ghosts, Mikokami etc

Rank 3: Ancestor spirits, Least fortunes

Rank 4: Lesser Fortunes, Oracles or revered ancestors

Rank 5: The Kami, Elemental Dragons or Major Fortunes

That probably requires a fair bit more work to line things up correctly, but it could be used as a basis of the prayers. Asking for the Blessing of Kaze-no-kami is only something a Rank 4 or higher Shugenja can do, whereas Whispers of the Land could be done by a Rank 2 Shugenja.

Mmmm, interesting! I will have to give that some serious thought. It would definitely require me to change up the levels of some of the spells I've been contemplating, but the payoff would be a more coherent underlying sense of what the ranks mean, so it might be worth it.

A final though, on purity. Shugenja and Monks are said to spend days purifying themselves before carrying out major undertakings and suchlike. As written currently, that would not have any effect. Likewise, bushi are said to go and receive a blessing after combat to bring them back to their normal level of spiritual harmony. Since their default is already the lowest level, again this does nothing. Maybe there should be a level at the top and a level at the bottom.

Cleansed : Achieved through complete abstinence, this level of spiritual purity cannot be maintained for very long (save by Henshin?) but grants bonuses when dealing with prayers.

Unclean : Default for Bushi. Eat meat, consume alcohol etc

Defiled : No samurai while remain like this voluntarily. Having touched a dead body or blood. Having been in the Shadowlands. Tainted.

I really wanted to keep it as simple as possible, and three tiers to match the three pillars fit nicely. But it would be easy to add a note that the GM can award an additional dice bonus or penalty to reflect those kinds of things, since they'd be temporary states rather than somebody's long-term condition.

PS where's the best place to comment about skills and the Three Pillars?

Not sure what you mean by that -- clarify?

Well, that's true. Certainly, a GM who likes flashy spells isn't going to use this system. But, as a GM who likes this system so far and might use it in a campaign, it would be nice to have a bone to throw to players who enjoy those kinds of spells. It's hard to engage a player who thinks his own character is boring, after all.

I haven't decided for certain that I'll put it in the Elemental Guard, although setting-wise they seem like by far the best match.

Really, the Tamori, the Agasha, and the Isawa are the three problem children of this redesign, because what they currently do doesn't scale up well to five separate techniques. The Isawa I have the best handle on; I'm inclined to give them metamagic, to reflect the idea that they understand magic on a theoretical level nobody else in Rokugan can match. The Agasha could manipulate people's Rings . . . but at least some of that feels like the kind of thing that should be available to all shugenja, so I don't know where I would put the boundary between those two fields. The Tamori could have combat self-buffs, but buffs of all kinds are a major part of how I see shugenja taking part in combat (since a lot of the direct damage is going away, to keep that focus on bushi), so again, where's the boundary? I also thought about going more the crafting route and giving them stuff that interacts with objects, in the vein of Reflections of P'an Ku and The Mending Forge and even stuff to temporarily semi-awaken obejcts (translating to bonuses or penalties), though again, some of that is maybe general shugenja function. Including bender magic, that's five different themes I could assign to different places, and I'm not sure where best to put them.

PS where's the best place to comment about skills and the Three Pillars?

Not sure what you mean by that -- clarify?

Gyaah! How does quoting work on this board???

ahem.

You've mentioned elsewhere about doing away with the Low category of skills. That inspired a thought that the skill categories could be re-worked a little to align with the three pillars.

Courtly skills: These are the skills one would typically see in use at a daimyo's court.

Bugei skills: These are the skills of a warrior.

Spiritual skills: These are the skills for interacting with ones own and other spirits.

Merchant skills: These represent the knowledge of practices that are not the domain of a samurai.

I was thinking for the Isawa, say that the breadth of their school allows them to, in effect, choose their own specialty. Their techniques would simply give them bonuses to spells of their choice. I like your metamagic idea, though, that would also work well.

Any of the things you mentioned for the Tamori would work. Semi-awakened magic items are a good idea, and I don't think it needs to be something shugenja in general do. As far as I recall only the Tamori and Asahina do anything like that with any regularity, so I'd be fine with reserving it for the Tamori. Especially if you already have ideas for the Asahina.

Combat self-buffs really fit the Tamori well, but it might be hard to thematically differentiate them from monks if you lean too hard on that theme. On the other hand, the Tamori seem to me the most monk-like of shugenja families, so maybe that's not a bad thing.

The Agasha are difficult, yeah. As you say, you could play up the ring-manipulation, perhaps by letting them swap rings instead of just raising or lowering them (which would be something any shugenja could do). Of course, there's also alchemy. You could also justify giving the metamagic to the Agasha, since they're supposed to be pretty good with theoretical magic too. If you don't use it for the Isawa, obviously.

I wouldn't mind if some of the Agasha and Tamori techniques end up overlapping a bit. The two schools are really closely related, after all. It's actually kind of unrealistic that the Tamori were able to develop a new school as fast as they did.

@ Tonbo Karasu:

We talked about some of that stuff in the Shugenja Thread o' Doom, but this seems more general than that. Also, if you posted it there not many people would read it.

I would either start a new thread or bring it up in the Reimagining the RPG thread.

And yes, quoting is weird on this board.

Re: quoting, if you look above the Bold option in the reply window, you'll see a little box. Click on that and it'll take you to code view -- which doesn't have line wrapping, so it's a pain to work entirely in code view, but it's useful for breaking up quote blocks or quoting multiple people. Just be warned that if you fail to close a tag properly, the forum will be super helpy and fling new tags EVERYWHERE when you click back to normal view; I tend to c&p the code before switching back, so I don't have to delete all the extra crap if I go back to code view to fix things.

(God, I miss the old forum.)

I was thinking for the Isawa, say that the breadth of their school allows them to, in effect, choose their own specialty. Their techniques would simply give them bonuses to spells of their choice. I like your metamagic idea, though, that would also work well.

Although bonuses to spells would be fitting for the whole "we're just better" theme, I think it winds up being massively uninteresting from a game standpoint. Everybody else has their cool flavor, things they can do that nobody else can, and you . . . just have better rolls.

Any of the things you mentioned for the Tamori would work. Semi-awakened magic items are a good idea, and I don't think it needs to be something shugenja in general do. As far as I recall only the Tamori and Asahina do anything like that with any regularity, so I'd be fine with reserving it for the Tamori. Especially if you already have ideas for the Asahina.

Well, I should note that about 70% of what I intend to be general "stuff shugenja do" is, in current canon, stuff that only certain groups do. :-) It's a question of whether futzing with the kami that make up objects fits with the overall flavor I'm going with.

The Agasha are difficult, yeah. As you say, you could play up the ring-manipulation, perhaps by letting them swap rings instead of just raising or lowering them (which would be something any shugenja could do). Of course, there's also alchemy. You could also justify giving the metamagic to the Agasha, since they're supposed to be pretty good with theoretical magic too. If you don't use it for the Isawa, obviously.

Metamagic feels way more Isawa to me than Agasha. Swapping Rings . . . the problem there is, it tends to be kind of a crap-shoot? Sometimes you swap and it has no effect, or you swap and oops you actually made them stronger. :-P

I'd love to do something with alchemy, but I'd need somebody who knows more than I do about Chinese alchemy to weigh in with suggestions. (I know the European kind, but that's it.)

Although bonuses to spells would be fitting for the whole "we're just better" theme, I think it winds up being massively uninteresting from a game standpoint. Everybody else has their cool flavor, things they can do that nobody else can, and you . . . just have better rolls.

Good point.

Metamagic feels way more Isawa to me than Agasha. Swapping Rings . . . the problem there is, it tends to be kind of a crap-shoot? Sometimes you swap and it has no effect, or you swap and oops you actually made them stronger. :-P

Yeah, you'd have to pair it (or precede it) with an ability to discern people's rings. Which could be a useful ability in itself, though maybe more magistratey than shugenja-y.

On the plus side, a ring-swap ability would be really versatile, since you could use it as a buff or debuff as the situation demanded.

I wish I could help you on the alchemy front, but I'm really ignorant of that stuff myself.

If I remember from what I read when doing rules for 7th Sea correctly, Chinese Alchemy had two branches to it: External and Internal. External alchemy is mostly the same as Western alchemy in its aims, although with slight differences in approach. Internal alchemy is managing your internal Jing, Chi and Shen to achieve immortality. This is basically what the Henshin do, as near as I can tell.

As for ideas: if anyone is going to do metamagic, I think it would be the Isawa. This leaves a question for Agasha and Tamori. The original Agasha fluff was talking about them almost doing magitech: dragon's eggs are basically hand grenades that don't use gaijin pepper, because the substance they use has been enhanced with a Fire kami. The Kitsuki approach to evidence grew out of this desire to see what the world does without kami involved. Could you do something with that?

Tamori, as you say, are one of the very few shugenja who routinely get stuck in beside their bushi friends. Maybe some way to double up buffs, so that they get the same buff that they give to their ally. Didn't there used to be a thing about Dragon Bushi and Shugenja working very closey together?

Can I suggest that detecting and switching rings around might be an interesting thing for Asako Inquisitors, who are kind of shugenja and magistrates.

Yeah, I was reading about Chinese alchemy on Wikipedia before I went to bed last night (I know, I know -- but it was the only resource readily available to me), and the internal/external alchemy thing sparked an idea for me. I think what I'm going to do is say that the Tamori school is external alchemy (they'll make potions which can be used to create five specific buff effects, rather than sticking any old spell into a potion), the Agasha school is internal alchemy (Ring manipulation for effects, with more of a yin-yang feel rather than just straight buffs, though I'll have to look at the Henshin to make sure I don't step on their toes), and if you're running your campaign pre-defection, you can just say the Dragon have both schools. If I want to do an object-related thing, I'll probably make that a Tamori path. Then the Isawa will have metamagic, and that just leaves me with deciding whether bender stuff should be a basic school for the Isawa (because why shouldn't they have two?), or how the Elemental Guard works.

This sounds so similar so something I worked on about a year ago to create 5 Rank shugenja schools which took the old 1-3e approach (with more basic schools and less new paths), so it had 5 rank Soshi Shugenja, Yogo Ward Master, and then Isawa Tensai, Isawa Shugenja, and Isawa Ishiken. I never fully finished all of them but many of them are in a rudementary (rough) state. I can post what I have either here or in another thread if anyone's interested.

For now I'll post an example and some of the basic sub-system for shugenja.

Spells

All 4e spells still existed in their current state, but were no longer selected by shugenja. All shugenja have Sense, Commune, and Summon. Sense now senses elemental kami specifically rather than examples of the element. Commune is used to both commune and to importune (as per the rules in the core book). Summon now allows you to physically manifest the kami which takes the form of the spell you importuned. In effect, Summon adopts all the qualities of the spell you're casting (Mastery, Range, Area, Targets, etc.).

Kami

Kami are a touch rarer in this system and are now part of the spiritual landscape that a GM should consider as part of their game. Kami have ranks 1-6 and can only be importuned to create spells of their level or lower (i.e. a Level 3 Kami can cast ML 3 spells or lower). Commune and Summon have a TN based on the personality and power of the spirit, using the following as guidelines (take the personality number and the power number add them and then times by 5 for final TN):

Personality

1 - Helpful

2 - Friendly

3 - Neutral

4 - Unfriendly

5 - Hostile

Power

1 - Small kami (large rock, koi pond, breeze, camp fire, etc.)

2 - Minor kami (boulder, large pond, bonfire, etc.)

3 - Large kami (hill, small lake, stream, grotto, etc.)

4 - Major kami (river, mountain, large lake, minor nemuranai, etc.)

5 - Great kami (mountain ranges, plains, wildfires, major nemuranai etc.)/Celestial Spirits (Ryu, Fushicho, etc.)

6 - Fortunes and Dragons

Schools

The schools more or less stayed the same in terms of skills, honor, etc. but now had 5 technique (many of which were modified versions of base abilities, new path and advanced school techniques.

Yoritomo Storm-Priests

Rank 1: Child of the Sea - The family line of the Yoritomo who possess the talent for magic have a strong bond with the sea and with weather as a whole. You may expend one spell slot to alter the wind conditions in your current location by one degree. If you also spend a Void Point, you may instead shift the entire weather status one degree (see sidebar in Great Clans). You may expend a maximum combined total of spell slots and/or Void Points equal to your School Rank each Round to enact these shifts. These shifts affect an area a number of miles equal to your School Rank in all directions from your current location. You may cast the spells Sense, Commune, and Summon

Rank 2: Strength of Suitengu
You may spend a Void Point to release a lightning bolt from your hands as a Complex Action. This bolt strikes one target within a range of 30' x your Water Ring. It rolls and keeps a number of damage dice equal to your Air Ring. You may expend spell slots to increase the damage of this bolt by +1k0 per spell slot expended, up to a maximum of your School Rank.

Rank 3: The Raging Ocean
Your Water Ring is considered 2 ranks higher for purposes of determining the number of spells you may cast per day.

Rank 3: Child of Osano-Wo
You may spend A Void Point as a Free Action to gain immunity to all spells possessing the Thunder keyword for 3 rounds (including damage from techniques of this school).

Rank 5: Thunder's Call

You may use your Rank 2 technique to summon 2 bolts that may strike the same or different targets. Extra spell slots for damage on that spell award +1k1 per spell slot instead of +1k0 (and effect both bolts).

SonofScarlet, that's interesting! I'd suggest a new thread, just so that discussion of the different mechanics doesn't get muddled -- but I'd love to see what else you have!

Myself, I've finally beaten the Soshi into shape, at least for first-draft values of that word. I haven't decided for certain yet, but I'm leaning toward saying that straight-up illusions will be a thing that *only* Soshi can do (not ruling out the possibility that, for example, the Kitsune might get the "lay a false trail" spell, which is illusion-y but more subtly so). I might make exceptions, though, like maybe giving the Asahina an alternate path that's basically Flight of Doves.

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SOSHI SHUGENJA

Rank One - a somewhat improved version of Token of Memory. You can create the illusion of one thing or creature, and can make it move with Raises.

Rank Two - Mask of Wind, but human disguises only (which scales it down from its current ML3 form). Raise to look like a specific person.

Rank Three - illusory sound. Mimicking specific voices requires Raises. By combining this with the R1, you can create moving illusions that also make noise.

Rank Four - Gift of Wind. Can Raise to transfer to someone else.

Rank Five - Cloud the Mind, scaled down so that you only create a single false memory (because omgwtfbbq, the current version is scary powerful). "Single memory" means basically a scene; might be able to Raise for longer.

Along with this, I think I'd allocate two other effects as alternate paths: Wolf's Proposal for R2, and Your Heart's Enemy for R3. Neither of those feels like the kind of thing every bog-standard Soshi ought to be able to do, but they're very Scorpion-y, so they should be options.

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I'll also note that this would all come with an explicit answer on how one can see through illusions (can By the Light of the Moon do it? How about Eight Directions Awareness? do regular Perception rolls ever stand a chance? etc). I don't yet know what the answer to that would be, as I'll need to see how many illusion-type-things that would even apply to, let alone what abilities might counteract it, but I thought I should mention.