Missle and Torpedoes do NOT need to be fixed

By balindamood, in X-Wing

This has been bugging me for a while, so here is my cathartic rant about fixing ordinance.

There seems to have been a lot of discussion for some time about ordinance needing to be “fixed.” Even since Wave 7 and the Extra Munitions upgrade card, the discussion rages on. The evidence presented includes its limited play at the top tables at the 2015 US Nationals and Worlds. My experience has been inconsistent with this. In fact, I believe that Extra Munitions has gone a long way to make them more useful on some ships, particularly Wave 7. Why is this? The easy answer is that ordinance needs to be “fixed.” Well, I am beginning to believe the problem is that most people do not understand how to play them effectively.

First, I am speaking specifically of torpedoes and missiles, not bombs/mines. Secondly, just like some of the ships and pilots, some ordinance is better than others. I do not think I have ever contemplated using Flechette Torpedoes, nor do I see me picking them up in the future. However, there are plenty of others to choose from. The complaints I have heard seemed to be centered about either they are too cumbersome to deploy successfully, or they are too costly for what is essentially a one-time-use discrete attack.

Secondly, in X-Wing, just like the real world, it takes a bit more to get a good ordinance shot off when compared with primary weapons, and this is the way it ought to be. As discussed below, most ordinance provides more than just dice rolls, but provide something extra. Making them as easy to use as a primary weapon, cannons, or even Proton Rockets, will result in EVERY ship being loaded with ordinance without any thoughtful strategy on list-building. As discussed on a recent Nova Squadron Radio podcast, simply doing a massive alpha-strike and wiping out an opponent in the first round makes the game no-fun. Those sort of changes tend to break games, and I think would really detract from X-Wing.

Use of Ordinance
With the exception of Proton Rockets (“Prockets”), the gateway to using ordinance is the Target Lock. The result is that pilots with a single action are rolling un-modified dice unless they either:

  • have a second action transferred to them, usually a focus; or
  • spend two rounds deploying the ordinance by target locking the first round, and focusing the second.

The problem with the unmodified roll is that you get what you get, and if you roll four eyeballs with Concussion Missiles without a focus to back it up. If so, you just pissed away 4 points unless you spend another point on munitions failsafe. The problem with the two-round deployment is keeping the target in arc and range over two rounds, and not dying in the meantime.

One way to mitigate this problem is to have two actions, or have another ship pass an action to the launching-ship. It is interesting (to me, at least), that outside of PTL on higher PS ships, the different factions handle this in different ways. The imperials have two Tie Bombers with an EPT (Captain Jonus and Major Rhymer), allowing for Push the Limit (PTL) so that both a focus and target lock action occur in the same round. These are the only two “gun boat” ships which can carry several types of ordinance of any type for different things, and deploy them immediately with focus support without assistance from another ship. They also have Redline, which is the only ship capable of maintaining two target locks on a single ship. While several torpedoes change blanks to a focus, you do have the option of re-rolling the dice like a regular target lock.

Conversely, the Rebels have named pilot ships that can pass focus tokens in different ways during the combat phase to provide that assurance if required (Kyle Katarn, Airen Cracken, and Esege Tuketu). What this means is that you need a support ship on the board to deploy focused ordinance quickly. Further, there are range limits and action costs associated with this sort of support which also takes some level of skill to keep the strategy viable. The attack value of these support ships is often less than if they were intended for pure combat role, and if the support ships get destroyed, then ordinance gets more complicated to deploy.

Scum have nothing to help with the single round deployment except the Squad Leader EPT. Squad Leader is available to all factions, but besides taking up a valuable EPT slot, it also expends an action, is dependent upon the relative pilot skill of the two ships involved, and is unique.

I think that some of the basis for the point-cost complaint is that many of these missiles and torpedoes have been around since the Wave 2-3 era. Three dice primary ships were not super common, and many of the 2-dice jousters and aces had a missile slot intended to sweeten the alpha-strike. As some ships have started to appear with 4-dice primaries, or EPT’s which add dice or re-rolls, the cost of a single-use ordinance seems to be inconsistent with the attack-value they provide. What seems to have been lost in the consideration of ordinance is that nearly all ordinance do something beyond just rolling larger than average numbers of red dice. They may modify a blank to a hit, stress the defender, or splash damage.

I believe that the cost complaint, at least on a heavy ordinance ship (K-wing, Tie Bomber and Punisher) was fixed with Extra Munitions. Where you are basically strapping on a missile to a Z-95 or Tie Advanced, the heavy ordinance ships were built for multiple launches. Add four points for one heavy hit that gives me a little extra? That is worth considering. However, it is my experience that it is unusual to launch more than four ordinance with a single ship. Without Extra Munitions, heavy ordinance ships would be paying more for the ordinance than for the ships themselves in some cases. Assuming that you loaded up four torpedoes/missiles at 4 points each, the cost of your weaponry went from 16 points to a more manageable 10.

When it comes to the more nimble “fighters”, ordinance does not seem to make much sense on most higher PS ships simply because you already have the added cost of the pilot ability invested. An ion pulse missile might be nice in the right circumstance, but if you are not using the upgrade card at least every other game, those three points would be better spent somewhere else.

Lower PS ships, where you have the ability to collect three or more together, is a different story. If we consider the average IG-88 build at 48-50 points with Crack Shot, and the ability to roll three dice with a +1 effectively delivered by Crack Shot; and it can do this precisely once with possible range bonuses. You can take three Z-95’s with Concussion Missiles and effectively do that same attack three times in one round. This is not a pure apples-to-apples comparison as there are other things an IG-88 can bring to the table, and other advantages to the three Z-95’s. However, it boils down to strategy, and there are basically only five of them with ordinance.

1). Alpha-Strike/Swarm.
This is the strategy that most think of when it comes to ordinance. Get as many missiles on as many ships as possible and try to do the most damage in the first round of combat, then mop up the rest in the rounds there after. While many aces can be equipped with PTL and a single missile or torpedo, they only have room for a single ordinance, and the cost paid for that EPT and PTL make it difficult to have enough ships on the board for the alpha strike strategy to be effective. Cheap is better here, and there is not a more efficient missile delivery system in the game than the Z-95.

It will be VERY helpful to be able to pass Focus tokens to launch quickly. Craken is OK, but is dependent upon having a shot himself. Squad Leader will further tax his actions, but you can then pass two Focus to others with Target Locks ready to fire. Kyle Katarn is better for passing focus, but if you want any sort of offense out of him, he will come at nearly a 50% premium over Craken (Katarn (21 points) plus TLT (6), Recon Spec (3), Squad Leader (2) versus Craken (19) and Squad Leader (2)). I have actually started using Esege (28) with Recon Spec and Advanced Slam to effectively pass the two focuses. At one point more than Katarn, you get more health, more mobility, but you also only use the focus tokens by others if they need them. This really allows for more than two missiles to Target Lock because you will likely only need the focus 50-75% of the time.

Finally, consider running 1-2 blockers ahead of the ordinance ships to slow the target down. You can get to range 3 for the Target Lock, but hold the target to range 2 the next round to provide time for the focus action. Blocking also limits any actions which might be used to mitigate an attack.

2). Anchor/Flanker.
The use of a Punisher, Bomber or K-Wing can be a nice compliment to a list with more traditional fighters. I do not believe that the high PS is required in this instance, but patience is. With only one heavy ordinance ship on the map, and some dancing shiny objects like Soonter Fel on the map, your opponent is going to have to make some decisions regarding target priority. Unless you have a support ship to pass focus, the goal is to skirt close to range three to get the target lock, then circle in for the shot. It may be the second or third round of combat before you can fire, but the round should be decisive. I particularly like Weapons Engineer on a K-Wing. A Warden Squadron pilot with Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles, Advanced SLAM and Weapons Engineer comes in at an even 40 points. The Advanced SLAM allows for the K-Wing to actually boost past your opponent. The Weapons Engineer allows for two Target Locks such that you have a better selection of target opportunity rather than have to focus upon a single ship. Advanced Proton Torpedoes gives the hardest base-case hit in the game when backed up with a focus token at range 1, but Concussion Missiles are there for range 2-3. You can drop three points by moving to Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles for a slightly softer punch. The goal is to be engaged by the third round of combat, and have the match decided by the fifth.

3. Primary Gunship.
Miranda Doni, Major Rhymer and Redline all have the ability to fill primary attacker roles given their PS and re-positional skills. Doni is the most difficult of the three because she will need to acquire a focus token from someplace to fire focus-supported ordinance in a single round. The Squad leader EPT on another ship is difficult to use here because it requires the pilot passing the action to have a higher PS, and sucking up an EPT on the handful of higher PS ships available will compromise their effectiveness. Craken is an option, but he has to shoot first. If he has no shot, or is beyond range 1, then there is no action to pass. Katarn is your best option. What you get in return is the hardest punch in the game with Doni’s ability (Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles, Advanced SLAM, Navigator, 46 points). I believe you need Navigator on Doni because she does not have any native reposition actions available that allow for her to shoot. This is critical for late moving ships, to avoid blocks and to line up shots. The nice thing with Doni is that if she gets too balled-up, a 1-straight can turn into a 7-straight with Navigator and SLAM.

I think Rhymer is even better (PTL, Twin Ion, Extra Munitions, Adv, Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles). At 42 points, not only do you get a Barrel Roll and PS 7, but his ability allows you to increase the range of the ordinance. Suddenly that 5-dice Adv. Proton Torpedo shot can be done at range 2. PTL allows him to fire it with focus support in a single round, and the Twin Ion upgrade helps to shed the stress. If there were one ship in the game that is made for ordinance, it is Major Rhymer. In my opinion, there should not be an Imperial list that does not include this ship, with the possible exception of a Tie swarm.

Redline is the other Imperial option. Set up in the same manner, you do not get PTL, but you do get two target locks. This makes Adv. Proton Torpedoes less attractive, but still a lot of dice. The dial is worse than the Bomber, but is balanced by three shields and saving 2 squad points.

4. Bomber Swarm.
It I difficult to get enough ships into a 100-point dog fight match with ordinance. In my opinion, Extra Munitions makes a 4-ship Tie Bomber swarm viable. Captain Jonus is the stripped down leader of this list, with little more than Squad Leader to further augment his pilot ability of re-rolling two dice for ships at range one. Let the other three ships launch the attack. If anything, give him an extra shield or hull as he ought to be the priority target of your opponent.

K-wings do not quite work as well due to the need to pass Focus. Esege was made to support this effort, but with only Recon Spec. on Esege, that leaves only 69 points for the remaining K-wings. You basically get three naked, or two lightly loaded with ordinance. Changing out the Adv. Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missiles with Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles gives you Katarn with either not enough points for both Recon Spec and Twin Laser Turret, resulting in a ship which does not add much to the offensive environment. A fun list, perhaps, but not competitive.

5. Hey! I have 3-4 points left on my list, there are no slots to fill but ordinance, and I do not care about initiative.
Not really a strategy, but it happens.

So in summary; ordinance is fine where it is. Use it as it is.

Oh, and Scum could use a heavy bomber (that does not suck).

And that is all I have to say about ordinance…for now.

Edited by balindamood

So the TL:DR is anyone who disagrees with you is "whining"? Nice.

PSA: Ordinance vs Ordnance

I think Rhymer is even better (PTL, Twin Ion, Extra Munitions, Adv, Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles). At 42 points, not only do you get a Barrel Roll and PS 7, but his ability allows you to increase the range of the ordinance. Suddenly that 5-dice Adv. Proton Torpedo shot can be done at range 2. PTL allows him to fire it with focus support in a single round, and the Twin Ion upgrade helps to shed the stress. If there were one ship in the game that is made for ordinance, it is Major Rhymer. In my opinion, there should not be an Imperial list that does not include this ship, with the possible exception of a Tie swarm.

Oddly, Rhymer's ability has been widely denounced as a contender for the most over-priced pilot ability in the game by almost everyone else.

I look forward to battle reports detailing ordnance-based victories, using Rhymer as the centerpiece of a squad.

Edited by Babaganoosh
*snip*

I think Rhymer is even better (PTL, Twin Ion, Extra Munitions, Adv, Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles). At 42 points, not only do you get a Barrel Roll and PS 7...

*snip*

....Ya, I tried. Sorry buddy, I think I stop reading here.

I appreciate the effort, but unfortunately, a large portion of the community, as well as the developers of the game it would seem, disagree and believe munitions are lacking quite a bit at the moment. The rumors about Guidance Chip aren't wrong. It is a munitions fix. You can quote me on it.

Edited by Kdubb

Fixed. Sorry.

So the TL:DR is anyone who disagrees with you is "whining"? Nice.

Welcome to Team 'X-wing still needs a buff'

Well, it is tough to read. Probably want to remove formatting.

Lol. Saying that the most over priced pilot in the game is fine... Right.

So the TL:DR is anyone who disagrees with you is "whining"? Nice.

I think it's less "Too Long Didn't Read" and more "Too Small Didn't Read".

My eyes are too old for that font

wow very tiny text. Let me fix that so we don't have to squint so hard. :angry:

This has been bugging me for a while, so here is my cathartic rant about fixing ordinance.

There seems to have been a lot of discussion for some time about ordinance needing to be “fixed.” Even since Wave 7 and the Extra Munitions upgrade card, the discussion rages on. The evidence presented includes its limited play at the top tables at the 2015 US Nationals and Worlds. My experience has been inconsistent with this. In fact, I believe that Extra Munitions has gone a long way to make them more useful on some ships, particularly Wave 7. Why is this? The easy answer is that ordinance needs to be “fixed.” Well, I am beginning to believe the problem is that most people do not understand how to play them effectively.

First, I am speaking specifically of torpedoes and missiles, not bombs/mines. Secondly, just like some of the ships and pilots, some ordinance is better than others. I do not think I have ever contemplated using Flechette Torpedoes, nor do I see me picking them up in the future. However, there are plenty of others to choose from. The complaints I have heard seemed to be centered about either they are too cumbersome to deploy successfully, or they are too costly for what is essentially a one-time-use discrete attack.

Secondly, in X-Wing, just like the real world, it takes a bit more to get a good ordinance shot off when compared with primary weapons, and this is the way it ought to be. As discussed below, most ordinance provides more than just dice rolls, but provide something extra. Making them as easy to use as a primary weapon, cannons, or even Proton Rockets, will result in EVERY ship being loaded with ordinance without any thoughtful strategy on list-building. As discussed on a recent Nova Squadron Radio podcast, simply doing a massive alpha-strike and wiping out an opponent in the first round makes the game no-fun. Those sort of changes tend to break games, and I think would really detract from X-Wing.

Use of Ordinance
With the exception of Proton Rockets (“Prockets”), the gateway to using ordinance is the Target Lock. The result is that pilots with a single action are rolling un-modified dice unless they either:

  • have a second action transferred to them, usually a focus; or
  • spend two rounds deploying the ordinance by target locking the first round, and focusing the second.
The problem with the unmodified roll is that you get what you get, and if you roll four eyeballs with Concussion Missiles without a focus to back it up. If so, you just pissed away 4 points unless you spend another point on munitions failsafe. The problem with the two-round deployment is keeping the target in arc and range over two rounds, and not dying in the meantime.

One way to mitigate this problem is to have two actions, or have another ship pass an action to the launching-ship. It is interesting (to me, at least), that outside of PTL on higher PS ships, the different factions handle this in different ways. The imperials have two Tie Bombers with an EPT (Captain Jonus and Major Rhymer), allowing for Push the Limit (PTL) so that both a focus and target lock action occur in the same round. These are the only two “gun boat” ships which can carry several types of ordinance of any type for different things, and deploy them immediately with focus support without assistance from another ship. They also have Redline, which is the only ship capable of maintaining two target locks on a single ship. While several torpedoes change blanks to a focus, you do have the option of re-rolling the dice like a regular target lock.

Conversely, the Rebels have named pilot ships that can pass focus tokens in different ways during the combat phase to provide that assurance if required (Kyle Katarn, Airen Cracken, and Esege Tuketu). What this means is that you need a support ship on the board to deploy focused ordinance quickly. Further, there are range limits and action costs associated with this sort of support which also takes some level of skill to keep the strategy viable. The attack value of these support ships is often less than if they were intended for pure combat role, and if the support ships get destroyed, then ordinance gets more complicated to deploy.

Scum have nothing to help with the single round deployment except the Squad Leader EPT. Squad Leader is available to all factions, but besides taking up a valuable EPT slot, it also expends an action, is dependent upon the relative pilot skill of the two ships involved, and is unique.

I think that some of the basis for the point-cost complaint is that many of these missiles and torpedoes have been around since the Wave 2-3 era. Three dice primary ships were not super common, and many of the 2-dice jousters and aces had a missile slot intended to sweeten the alpha-strike. As some ships have started to appear with 4-dice primaries, or EPT’s which add dice or re-rolls, the cost of a single-use ordinance seems to be inconsistent with the attack-value they provide. What seems to have been lost in the consideration of ordinance is that nearly all ordinance do something beyond just rolling larger than average numbers of red dice. They may modify a blank to a hit, stress the defender, or splash damage.

I believe that the cost complaint, at least on a heavy ordinance ship (K-wing, Tie Bomber and Punisher) was fixed with Extra Munitions. Where you are basically strapping on a missile to a Z-95 or Tie Advanced, the heavy ordinance ships were built for multiple launches. Add four points for one heavy hit that gives me a little extra? That is worth considering. However, it is my experience that it is unusual to launch more than four ordinance with a single ship. Without Extra Munitions, heavy ordinance ships would be paying more for the ordinance than for the ships themselves in some cases. Assuming that you loaded up four torpedoes/missiles at 4 points each, the cost of your weaponry went from 16 points to a more manageable 10.

When it comes to the more nimble “fighters”, ordinance does not seem to make much sense on most higher PS ships simply because you already have the added cost of the pilot ability invested. An ion pulse missile might be nice in the right circumstance, but if you are not using the upgrade card at least every other game, those three points would be better spent somewhere else.

Lower PS ships, where you have the ability to collect three or more together, is a different story. If we consider the average IG-88 build at 48-50 points with Crack Shot, and the ability to roll three dice with a +1 effectively delivered by Crack Shot; and it can do this precisely once with possible range bonuses. You can take three Z-95’s with Concussion Missiles and effectively do that same attack three times in one round. This is not a pure apples-to-apples comparison as there are other things an IG-88 can bring to the table, and other advantages to the three Z-95’s. However, it boils down to strategy, and there are basically only five of them with ordinance.

1). Alpha-Strike/Swarm.
This is the strategy that most think of when it comes to ordinance. Get as many missiles on as many ships as possible and try to do the most damage in the first round of combat, then mop up the rest in the rounds there after. While many aces can be equipped with PTL and a single missile or torpedo, they only have room for a single ordinance, and the cost paid for that EPT and PTL make it difficult to have enough ships on the board for the alpha strike strategy to be effective. Cheap is better here, and there is not a more efficient missile delivery system in the game than the Z-95.

It will be VERY helpful to be able to pass Focus tokens to launch quickly. Craken is OK, but is dependent upon having a shot himself. Squad Leader will further tax his actions, but you can then pass two Focus to others with Target Locks ready to fire. Kyle Katarn is better for passing focus, but if you want any sort of offense out of him, he will come at nearly a 50% premium over Craken (Katarn (21 points) plus TLT (6), Recon Spec (3), Squad Leader (2) versus Craken (19) and Squad Leader (2)). I have actually started using Esege (28) with Recon Spec and Advanced Slam to effectively pass the two focuses. At one point more than Katarn, you get more health, more mobility, but you also only use the focus tokens by others if they need them. This really allows for more than two missiles to Target Lock because you will likely only need the focus 50-75% of the time.

Finally, consider running 1-2 blockers ahead of the ordinance ships to slow the target down. You can get to range 3 for the Target Lock, but hold the target to range 2 the next round to provide time for the focus action. Blocking also limits any actions which might be used to mitigate an attack.

2). Anchor/Flanker.
The use of a Punisher, Bomber or K-Wing can be a nice compliment to a list with more traditional fighters. I do not believe that the high PS is required in this instance, but patience is. With only one heavy ordinance ship on the map, and some dancing shiny objects like Soonter Fel on the map, your opponent is going to have to make some decisions regarding target priority. Unless you have a support ship to pass focus, the goal is to skirt close to range three to get the target lock, then circle in for the shot. It may be the second or third round of combat before you can fire, but the round should be decisive. I particularly like Weapons Engineer on a K-Wing. A Warden Squadron pilot with Extra Munitions, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles, Advanced SLAM and Weapons Engineer comes in at an even 40 points. The Advanced SLAM allows for the K-Wing to actually boost past your opponent. The Weapons Engineer allows for two Target Locks such that you have a better selection of target opportunity rather than have to focus upon a single ship. Advanced Proton Torpedoes gives the hardest base-case hit in the game when backed up with a focus token at range 1, but Concussion Missiles are there for range 2-3. You can drop three points by moving to Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles for a slightly softer punch. The goal is to be engaged by the third round of combat, and have the match decided by the fifth.

3. Primary Gunship.
Miranda Doni, Major Rhymer and Redline all have the ability to fill primary attacker roles given their PS and re-positional skills. Doni is the most difficult of the three because she will need to acquire a focus token from someplace to fire focus-supported ordinance in a single round. The Squad leader EPT on another ship is difficult to use here because it requires the pilot passing the action to have a higher PS, and sucking up an EPT on the handful of higher PS ships available will compromise their effectiveness. Craken is an option, but he has to shoot first. If he has no shot, or is beyond range 1, then there is no action to pass. Katarn is your best option. What you get in return is the hardest punch in the game with Doni’s ability (Advanced Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles, Advanced SLAM, Navigator, 46 points). I believe you need Navigator on Doni because she does not have any native reposition actions available that allow for her to shoot. This is critical for late moving ships, to avoid blocks and to line up shots. The nice thing with Doni is that if she gets too balled-up, a 1-straight can turn into a 7-straight with Navigator and SLAM.

I think Rhymer is even better (PTL, Twin Ion, Extra Munitions, Adv, Proton Torpedoes, Concussion Missiles). At 42 points, not only do you get a Barrel Roll and PS 7, but his ability allows you to increase the range of the ordinance. Suddenly that 5-dice Adv. Proton Torpedo shot can be done at range 2. PTL allows him to fire it with focus support in a single round, and the Twin Ion upgrade helps to shed the stress. If there were one ship in the game that is made for ordinance, it is Major Rhymer. In my opinion, there should not be an Imperial list that does not include this ship, with the possible exception of a Tie swarm.

Redline is the other Imperial option. Set up in the same manner, you do not get PTL, but you do get two target locks. This makes Adv. Proton Torpedoes less attractive, but still a lot of dice. The dial is worse than the Bomber, but is balanced by three shields and saving 2 squad points.

4. Bomber Swarm.
It I difficult to get enough ships into a 100-point dog fight match with ordinance. In my opinion, Extra Munitions makes a 4-ship Tie Bomber swarm viable. Captain Jonus is the stripped down leader of this list, with little more than Squad Leader to further augment his pilot ability of re-rolling two dice for ships at range one. Let the other three ships launch the attack. If anything, give him an extra shield or hull as he ought to be the priority target of your opponent.

K-wings do not quite work as well due to the need to pass Focus. Esege was made to support this effort, but with only Recon Spec. on Esege, that leaves only 69 points for the remaining K-wings. You basically get three naked, or two lightly loaded with ordinance. Changing out the Adv. Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missiles with Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles gives you Katarn with either not enough points for both Recon Spec and Twin Laser Turret, resulting in a ship which does not add much to the offensive environment. A fun list, perhaps, but not competitive.

5. Hey! I have 3-4 points left on my list, there are no slots to fill but ordinance, and I do not care about initiative.
Not really a strategy, but it happens.

So in summary; ordinance is fine where it is. Use it as it is.

Oh, and Scum could use a heavy bomber (that does not suck).

And that is all I have to say about ordinance…for now.

As for torpedoes and missiles they don't need to be fixed, they need to be removed :P

Okay well lets face it THERE IS NO PRACTICAL USE FOR TORPEDO AND MISSILE SECONDARY WEAPONS! Problem with them much like the problem with Huge ships in epic. FFG didn't want them to become I win buttons so they made them only good is specific situations. Well as the meta developed those specific situations were not a part of the meta so torpedoes and missiles are never used in any competitive tournament or premier setting. It would be better to save those 2-6 points and push for the initiative bid.

It is difficult to properly balance these discarding upgrade cards as they can only be competitively viable if they do one of two things.

  1. Save a ship from being removed
  2. Remove an opponent's ship

The best example of an upgrade with a discard mechanic that does this is Crack shot but it had to be FAQ first. If it followed normal timing where it only modifies defense dice in the attacker modifies green dice step it would never see play because it doesn't guarantee the removal of the opposing ship. When the FAQ came out stated that it was to be used during the comparing results step of the attack after all dice modifications that is when crackshot can ensure a ship is removed. Now lets take a look at either a proton torpedo or a concussion missile. You have to set it up with a target lock. You have to discard the target lock losing vital dice modification ability (and I am using weapons with built in dice modification but still the statistics would be in favor of just keeping the TL for the primary weapons attack). Even then you could still roll poorly (like all focus results for concussion missiles) the defender still gets an evade roll and on 3 agility that can still cancel an attack. You spent and discarded X number of points which did nothing for you but if that ship got killed even if it was discarded still add X point to your opponents MOV. These secondary weapon upgrades are nothing but a lose/lose situation.

Now I understand the call to end all "We need to fix missile and torpedo secondary weapons" posts. Especially when every so called "fix" that FFG makes is nothing but a huge disappointment.

  • Better/cheaper 2ndary weapons Still difficult to set up and can easily be evaded and gives points to MOV
  • Munitions Failsafe does not address the correct problem
  • Extra Munitions too little too late
  • Non token discarding missiles Still expensive to use and difficult to set up see the first bullet.
  • Tracer missile TL is still better used for Primary weapon attacks
  • Long Range Sensors Arc dodgers rejoice. TIE Interceptor pilots are being served Bombers on a platter. Got TL beyond range 3 time to play keep away. jump in to range 1 and oh you can't target lock me. I'll be taking my bonus red die now and you can DIE. Seriously people who use this upgrade will soon realize that TIE Bombers should just stay as far away from the tournament play mat as possible. It would be okay for Epic but then again so will a TIE swarm.

I don't know what ti is with FFG but every time they do try to fix it they end up making it worse than before such as ships with abilities that only work with certain upgrades making even more of a point sink to releasing a far better weapons such as TLT that widens the power gap between cannon/turret weapons from missile/torpedo weapons in conjunction wit these so called "fixes".

At first I started out using these weapons a lot trying to make them viable and I hat to say this but the more I used them the more it appears that the game might be better if these were just removed from X-wing all together. -_- I want them to be viable and good even in some non premier formats such as escalation or epic but it just doesn't look that way.

Edited by Marinealver

The best example of an upgrade with a discard mechanic that does this is Crack shot but it had to be FAQ first. If it followed normal timing where it only modifies defense dice in the attacker modifies green dice step it would never see play because it doesn't guarantee the removal of the opposing ship. When the FAQ came out stated that it was to be used during the comparing results step of the attack after all dice modifications that is when crackshot can ensure a ship is removed.

I don't think that had to be FAQ'd because of an error. According to the first rule book, Crack Shot worked perfectly well during the "cancel dice" step of combat. The reason it had to be FAQ'd is because that step was removed from the new rule book which seems to have been developed after Crack Shot was at the printer.

I refuse to read OP's font.

Good luck.

No, ordinance still needs a fix if it is to become viable. My fix is far to late to implement, as that would require divorcing the to-hit dice and the damage-dice of ordinance from each other. Torpedoes would have fewer dice for accuracy, as they're only really useful against slow targets, but do large amounts of fixed damage, while missiles would be the opposite.

The easy fix would be to allow ordinance to use the targetlock that they discarded for a reroll.

I refuse to read OP's font.

Good luck.

At least it's not light pink script or ALL CAPS.

I refuse to read OP's font.

Good luck.

At least it's not light pink script or ALL CAPS.

Light pink is at least readable on the old (good) forum theme, although I haven't had any reason to quote that poster yet so as to strip out the formatting.

The real crime there is their font choice.