Oh, Juke is good with the X7 title! I like it. If you use Vessery, you can always use your action to get the Evade if you don't get one free. That's OK as you get the free TL.

Nope. If you don't get the free Evade token, you aren't getting one. Defenders don't have the Evade Action.

Well, I'll be a scruffy Nerf Herder! I never really tried to Evade with one, but I just thought.

Just adding to the hype of the title. I also was considering a Vessery build, now this lets us play 4 target lock ships.

The Tie/FO are blockers and TL providers, they have enough of a body and can deal some damage too.

I guess the PS6 generic Defenders will be 34 points .... so you just can't have 3 of these in a 100 points list.

hoping it's 33, ala the 1 point jump from Saber to Royal

of course, they kept the ept and it's only a 2 PS jump, but the Defender is so ludicrously overpriced that they can afford to go Bounty Hunter on it

34 would be fine, but it's the absolute maximum

To repeat my thoughts on this from earlier in the thread:

I assume 34 points. Cheaper than Vessery due to the lack of an ability, but I'd be surprised if they were 33 and just +1 for +3 PS over the Onyx. This also leaves room for the Countess at 33 points. Maarek fills the last spot at 36 points.

Also forgot the Onyx doesn't have an EPT, so yeah +1 point for +3 PS and an EPT seems incredibly unlikely. Expect 34 points and the Countess filling in the 33 slot.

So 33 points would be absolute minimum and 34 points absolute maximum

I understand the reasoning, but I legitimately would not be surprised about a 33 point Glaive

this is simply because we got a sorta generic food chain, except it's worth of a sandwich between TLTs and PS 4 Crackshots (or Juke FOs)

and there's no real room in there for Ps 1 or 3, as they'll get devoured by TLTs and cracksquad respectively (Esp the defenders with all their faliable, crackshotable green dice)

Aces of course lie outside this range because they're so play dependent

this seems to be sorta reflected at worlds as well

simply put, I wouldn't be surprised at the complete replacement of Deltas and Onyxs as the current environment seems to promise to do that anyway

of course, at PS 6 (> 4; = Aggressors) the Glaive promises to be quite a useful beast regardless of how much he costs (as long as it's not above 34)

I understand the reasoning, but I legitimately would not be surprised about a 33 point Glaive

this is simply because we got a sorta generic food chain, except it's worth of a sandwich between TLTs and PS 4 Crackshots (or Juke FOs)

and there's no real room in there for Ps 1 or 3, as they'll get devoured by TLTs and cracksquad respectively (Esp the defenders with all their faliable, crackshotable green dice)

Aces of course lie outside this range because they're so play dependent

this seems to be sorta reflected at worlds as well

simply put, I wouldn't be surprised at the complete replacement of Deltas and Onyxs as the current environment seems to promise to do that anyway

of course, at PS 6 (> 4; = Aggressors) the Glaive promises to be quite a useful beast regardless of how much he costs (as long as it's not above 34)

I think you could be right. Onyx does literally see no table time, and even at 31 points will probably continue doung so.

Let's face it Glaives at 33 would be 1 point under the current logic for Defender pricing, but then the defender was horribly overpriced. So what if it's 33 points. This won't break the game and if you could take 3 with Juke it would be really worthwile.

You could still play 3 x Onyx + /x7 + Stealth Device for example

With Focus+Evade + 4 greens you shouldn't loose the device that fast ... while being able to fire before most TLT ships ...

So many possibilities now ...

BTL-A4 let Y-wings become Ionhogs, and hammer away at low agility targets. They were, and are, a thing to be feared.

TIE/D lets Defenders do exactly the same with an Ion Cannon... with an extra die on the primary, and range 3 on the Ion.

... Yeah, I think Ionfenders (Defioners?) will be just fine.

I remember when the Warthog title was announced for the Y-Wing that the Defender should beat up the Y-Wing and steal its title.

Well.

FFG listened.

You could still play 3 x Onyx + /x7 + Stealth Device for example

With Focus+Evade + 4 greens you shouldn't loose the device that fast ... while being able to fire before most TLT ships ...

So many possibilities now ...

And even if they break the Stealth on the first Onyx, by the time it's time to kill the second, the biggest guns in the opposing squad might well be gone, making it that much harder.

BTL-A4 let Y-wings become Ionhogs, and hammer away at low agility targets. They were, and are, a thing to be feared.

TIE/D lets Defenders do exactly the same with an Ion Cannon... with an extra die on the primary, and range 3 on the Ion.

... Yeah, I think Ionfenders (Defioners?) will be just fine.

I remember when the Warthog title was announced for the Y-Wing that the Defender should beat up the Y-Wing and steal its title.

Well.

FFG listened.

now I have a "shakedown" in mind - soprano'style

BTL-A4 let Y-wings become Ionhogs, and hammer away at low agility targets. They were, and are, a thing to be feared.

TIE/D lets Defenders do exactly the same with an Ion Cannon... with an extra die on the primary, and range 3 on the Ion.

... Yeah, I think Ionfenders (Defioners?) will be just fine.

I remember when the Warthog title was announced for the Y-Wing that the Defender should beat up the Y-Wing and steal its title.

Well.

FFG listened.

now I have a "shakedown" in mind - soprano'style

It's less tehft and more Plaigarism . The Y-wing still has it's title, and the Defender has a knockoff version!

No it's minus two points and it gives you an evade token, it's better than -3 points because with PTL it gives rex three action economy that's hard to match.

It's turning the defender into that supercepter people wanted.

Except that it isn't nearly as maneuverable.

Last weekend I set up an asteroid field and navigated it, just to practice my maneuvers. I used this squad:

Darth Vader (29)

Daredevil (3)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Carnor Jax (26)

Push the Limit (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Defender started in the lead, so that I could have the lowest PS ship move first without having to worry about bumping. The Defender finished the slalom course _dead last_. (Darth finished first). The boost/BR combo is so powerful because it's amazingly twisty. You get all kinds of ability to be exactly where you want to be. The Defender simply _won't_ have those options. Thus, it won't be a "superceptor.

Instead it will be a different beast. It will have the chance to be the king of the Jousters. One solid hit from an Ion TIE/D, and you'll know exactly where Soontir will be next turn- if you haven't killed him outright. A TIE X7 will be able to get up in some poor fool's face and unleash a 4 die attack at range 1- with the safety of a free evade token. Or, if it's under heavy assault, it can simply boom the heck away and still get that evade token.

That's 2 different ways to become a better Jouster. It is certainly not going to step on the toes of an Interceptor, though- the Squints will still be running circles around the Defender.

BTL-A4 let Y-wings become Ionhogs, and hammer away at low agility targets. They were, and are, a thing to be feared.

TIE/D lets Defenders do exactly the same with an Ion Cannon... with an extra die on the primary, and range 3 on the Ion.

... Yeah, I think Ionfenders (Defioners?) will be just fine.

I remember when the Warthog title was announced for the Y-Wing that the Defender should beat up the Y-Wing and steal its title.

Well.

FFG listened.

now I have a "shakedown" in mind - soprano'style

It's less tehft and more Plaigarism . The Y-wing still has it's title, and the Defender has a knockoff version!

*sends 'the boys' to jimmius, selling "ensurance"*

No it's minus two points and it gives you an evade token, it's better than -3 points because with PTL it gives rex three action economy that's hard to match.

It's turning the defender into that supercepter people wanted.

Except that it isn't nearly as maneuverable.

Last weekend I set up an asteroid field and navigated it, just to practice my maneuvers. I used this squad:

Darth Vader (29)

Daredevil (3)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Carnor Jax (26)

Push the Limit (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Defender started in the lead, so that I could have the lowest PS ship move first without having to worry about bumping. The Defender finished the slalom course _dead last_. (Darth finished first). The boost/BR combo is so powerful because it's amazingly twisty. You get all kinds of ability to be exactly where you want to be. The Defender simply _won't_ have those options. Thus, it won't be a "superceptor.

Instead it will be a different beast. It will have the chance to be the king of the Jousters. One solid hit from an Ion TIE/D, and you'll know exactly where Soontir will be next turn- if you haven't killed him outright. A TIE X7 will be able to get up in some poor fool's face and unleash a 4 die attack at range 1- with the safety of a free evade token. Or, if it's under heavy assault, it can simply boom the heck away and still get that evade token.

That's 2 different ways to become a better Jouster. It is certainly not going to step on the toes of an Interceptor, though- the Squints will still be running circles around the Defender.

x7 Defenders don't go around asteroids, they go through them.

I think alot of people are looking at flechette cannons from the wrong angle, we used to pay seven points for an extra attack now we can pay two to get that potential four damage and if conditions are right deal a stress.

No it's minus two points and it gives you an evade token, it's better than -3 points because with PTL it gives rex three action economy that's hard to match.

It's turning the defender into that supercepter people wanted.

Except that it isn't nearly as maneuverable.

Last weekend I set up an asteroid field and navigated it, just to practice my maneuvers. I used this squad:

Darth Vader (29)

Daredevil (3)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Carnor Jax (26)

Push the Limit (3)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Autothrusters (2)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Defender started in the lead, so that I could have the lowest PS ship move first without having to worry about bumping. The Defender finished the slalom course _dead last_. (Darth finished first). The boost/BR combo is so powerful because it's amazingly twisty. You get all kinds of ability to be exactly where you want to be. The Defender simply _won't_ have those options. Thus, it won't be a "superceptor.

Instead it will be a different beast. It will have the chance to be the king of the Jousters. One solid hit from an Ion TIE/D, and you'll know exactly where Soontir will be next turn- if you haven't killed him outright. A TIE X7 will be able to get up in some poor fool's face and unleash a 4 die attack at range 1- with the safety of a free evade token. Or, if it's under heavy assault, it can simply boom the heck away and still get that evade token.

That's 2 different ways to become a better Jouster. It is certainly not going to step on the toes of an Interceptor, though- the Squints will still be running circles around the Defender.

Of course it did. They way you built it, it was the only ship lacking Boost AND it was the only ship lacking a second action. Both other ships not only had a second repositioning action available, they had a second action to use it every turn.

I think alot of people are looking at flechette cannons from the wrong angle, we used to pay seven points for an extra attack now we can pay two to get that potential four damage and if conditions are right deal a stress.

I'm behind this

the only problem is the ion effect is incredibly devastating (even shuts down r2-d2 !) and, in this era of small bases, may well become a dominant force in the meta.

Ioned TLts --> screwed

Ioned aces --> screwed

all for 1 more point

Flechette will always be there when we can't spare that 1 point, though, or if we want to do silly things such as

Delta (ion, Tie/D) x 2 [66]

Onyx (flechette, Tie/D) [34]

I think alot of people are looking at flechette cannons from the wrong angle, we used to pay seven points for an extra attack now we can pay two to get that potential four damage and if conditions are right deal a stress.

And potentially cause more Critical Damage as well.

And more damage at range one.

I think alot of people are looking at flechette cannons from the wrong angle, we used to pay seven points for an extra attack now we can pay two to get that potential four damage and if conditions are right deal a stress.

I've taken Flechettes on Deltas in the past just to have a range three attack that doesn't grant higher agility targets an extra Defense die. That alone was worth 2 points. It was just gravy if the attack happened to deal a stress token as well.

Not having to choose between making that attack or one with the primary will be awesome.

I understand the reasoning, but I legitimately would not be surprised about a 33 point Glaive

this is simply because we got a sorta generic food chain, except it's worth of a sandwich between TLTs and PS 4 Crackshots (or Juke FOs)

and there's no real room in there for Ps 1 or 3, as they'll get devoured by TLTs and cracksquad respectively (Esp the defenders with all their faliable, crackshotable green dice)

Aces of course lie outside this range because they're so play dependent

this seems to be sorta reflected at worlds as well

simply put, I wouldn't be surprised at the complete replacement of Deltas and Onyxs as the current environment seems to promise to do that anyway

of course, at PS 6 (> 4; = Aggressors) the Glaive promises to be quite a useful beast regardless of how much he costs (as long as it's not above 34)

I think you could be right. Onyx does literally see no table time, and even at 31 points will probably continue doung so.

Let's face it Glaives at 33 would be 1 point under the current logic for Defender pricing, but then the defender was horribly overpriced. So what if it's 33 points. This won't break the game and if you could take 3 with Juke it would be really worthwile.

I think a 33 point generic with an EPT is very much needed for this ship. This will give you the ability to run 3 with a 2 point EPT or 7 total points for upgrades.

Here's hoping A) Glaives have an EPT, and B) they cost no more than 33 points. I have my doubts about the cost though...

I understand the reasoning, but I legitimately would not be surprised about a 33 point Glaive

this is simply because we got a sorta generic food chain, except it's worth of a sandwich between TLTs and PS 4 Crackshots (or Juke FOs)

and there's no real room in there for Ps 1 or 3, as they'll get devoured by TLTs and cracksquad respectively (Esp the defenders with all their faliable, crackshotable green dice)

Aces of course lie outside this range because they're so play dependent

this seems to be sorta reflected at worlds as well

simply put, I wouldn't be surprised at the complete replacement of Deltas and Onyxs as the current environment seems to promise to do that anyway

of course, at PS 6 (> 4; = Aggressors) the Glaive promises to be quite a useful beast regardless of how much he costs (as long as it's not above 34)

I think you could be right. Onyx does literally see no table time, and even at 31 points will probably continue doung so.

Let's face it Glaives at 33 would be 1 point under the current logic for Defender pricing, but then the defender was horribly overpriced. So what if it's 33 points. This won't break the game and if you could take 3 with Juke it would be really worthwile.

I think a 33 point generic with an EPT is very much needed for this ship. This will give you the ability to run 3 with a 2 point EPT or 7 total points for upgrades.

Here's hoping A) Glaives have an EPT, and B) they cost no more than 33 points. I have my doubts about the cost though...

I'm pretty sure they are going to be 34 points. Compared to an onyx, there's no way they are getting +3 pilot skill AND the elite slot for just 1 point more...

Also, I'm hoping that they learned from Imperial Aces (where Lorrir was priced higher than the royal guard and never sees play) and they will put Countess Ryad (with her likely questionable pilot ability but no EPT) at 33 points.

33 points for the generics would be reasonable.

With /x7 it gives the choice of a 1 point EPT + MKII or a 2 point EPT, which would be Juke in this case ... and maybe interesting 2 point EPT to follow.

... with 33 points for the named one as well.

... and its also OK that Rexler and Vessery still are overpriced compared to the new ones (given they are 33 points ... not including Maarek of course) because their ability is so much better with a cheap cannon and the /D title (Rexler with a second focus from Fleet Officer).

... and its also OK that Rexler and Vessery still are overpriced compared to the new ones (given they are 33 points ... not including Maarek of course) because their ability is so much better with a cheap cannon and the /D title (Rexler with a second focus from Fleet Officer).

Rex with Predator can be a real beast against hull heavy lists. Rex with TIE/D is even scarier. Throw in his buddy Fleet Officer for a really good time.

Vess actually isn't overpriced

he's the only defender worth his points pre-fix, i.t.o jousting value (assuming his ability is enabled)