Has anyone even considered how this would fare on an MC30 dodana list....

Yes. . . It wins games. . .

My primary rebel list includes Dodonna and 2 MC30 torpedo's with APT and Ord experts. It's pretty evil as you can fish for crits with ord experts, and then fish for the best crit with Dodonna. They can and will tear anything to pieces in short order.

It really is devastating. Against small ships, just fish for those strucutral damages to finish them off quicky. Consider an MC30 can kill a raider, cr90, gladiator, or neb b in one round of shooting. 2 structural damage + ram = 5 damage.

Against big ships, I'd look for stuff that can neuter them quick. Imagine an Ackbar list running MC80's (or AFMK2), or ISDs with depowered armaments? (no long range attacks.) Game, set, match, right there, baby.

A double arcing TRC30 with APT and OE can 1 shot a Victory. I have done it. It does not require a spectacular roll either.

Against bigger ships I weill strike them at long range, drop shields and jump in ready to take them out while they have no tokens. MC30c's are very shark like in that way.

Um...surely I'm not saying this cannot happen, but you really have to have EVERYTHING go your way perfectly. Let me walk through this (this is more a mental exercise for myself than as an "argument" towards you.)

Scenario 1. max damage, but no accuracies.

Let's say you get double broadsides. Which is...tricky. It's very tricky in the front ( medium sized ship leaves you less room to work with, if you're off parallel alignement to your target ship by more than 2 degrees, you don't have double broadsides ), and while it's more doable in the side, it still requires things to really go your way. You really only need to be off your perpendicular axis by about 7 degrees in order to not hit him in the same hull zone with both shots. And if you don't hit him with both shots in the same hull zone, he can get that redirect to the opposite side of the ship.

If you max damage on both sides (10 damage), he braces for 5 each time (burning his brace in the process).

The first attack (in flank) brace to 5, redirect 3 to front. 2 damage to side hull zone shields.

The second attack (in flank), brace to 5, redirect 1 to back, 1 damage to remaining side hull shield, 3 damage to ship.

Each attack with APT gets you a crit, let's say you pull 2 structural damages. You're now "only" at 7. You could finish him off with a ram I suppose.

So in this scenario, yes, you kill a Vic in 1 shot with a perfect roll, and perfect ending position. That is so unlikely as for me to never plan a battle strategy, deployment, or, really, anything around it. Which is why I didn't include it in my list of things that an MC30 can possibly kill in 1 activation.

Scenario 2. 1 accuracy + lots of damage.

So...let's see what happens when we throw in a single accuracy.

1st attack (acc) blocks brace and pushes 8 damage. 3 side shields, 3 front shields, 2 damage through + APT structural damage = 4 damage

2nd attack gets 8 damage through and no acc. brace to 4. redirect 1 to back. 3 damage through + APT structural damage = 5 damage

And if you don't get what you need, you ram to finish him. Ok so a single brace kills the Vic pretty squarely.

Scenario 3 . 2 accuracies + lots of damage.

No need to examine this. Blocking both braces slaughters the vic pretty handily.

Scenario 4. A more reasonable dice roll / scenario.

Alright, here's what I think you can actually expect more like...75% of the time.

1st attack: Red: 2 hits (TLRC), + 1 hit. Black: hit/crit, hit, hit (after rerolls). 7 damage. brace to 4. 3 to front shields, 1 to side shields. APT + Dodonna for structural damage.

2nd attack: Red: 2 hits (TLRC) + 1 acc. Black: hit/crit, hit, hit (after rerolls). 6 damage. no brace. 1 to rear shields, 2 to side shields. 3 damage to ship. APT but no structural damage.

Ram for 7 total ship damage.

My Conclusion:

Well I have to admit that it's a bit easier to accomplish then I first intuitively thought when I saw your post. That being said...

Yeah. I dunno Lyr, the stars need to be soooo aligned for this happen, that I can't reasonably include such an event in my planning matrix. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely to? No. And not just because of dice rolls either. You need to not only be hot on dice, but lined up perfectly for double side arc, AND you need to be able to ram him (if you're going too fast you can completely overshoot him) AND you need to pull the right crits with Dodonna. (and while there is a good chance to do this, it's not necessarily a given.) Murphy's laws suggests something is bound to go wrong in all that.

Are you only considering the application of Structural Damage? Those are not always the most efficient way to deal damage, especially to medium, and large ships. Projector Misaligned is huge, the one that doesn't let you use exhausted defense tokens, things like that.

Are you only considering the application of Structural Damage? Those are not always the most efficient way to deal damage, especially to medium, and large ships. Projector Misaligned is huge, the one that doesn't let you use exhausted defense tokens, things like that.

No, absolutely. I totally agree. The point of the exercise was to see if it's possible/feasible/likely to knock out a Vic in a single activation. Lyr indicated that it's possible...and...I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth, but kind of inferred that it's...worth shooting for (Lyr, I don't mean to be badly paraphrashing you here).

And while I agree it's possible, I think it's highly unlikely. In my opinion, the better way to crit-fish against something like a Vic (or bigger) is to look for crits that will really cripple a large ship, and finish them off in subsequent rounds. Misaligned Projectors is good, Depowered Armaments also takes the teeth out of an ISD or MC80 pretty nicely too.

He considered Structural Damage. He did not consider Intel Officer which has become a staple or a Concentrate Fire Command. Oh and for me I use Dodonna so that is taken into consideration.

Let's say you only have a front arc and side arc. You have 5 damage coming through with TRC's with a reroll (actually quite likely), you Intel Officer the brace (though you may want to hit with the side arc first to force the brace). From there you use APT's before the redirect goes off. With Dodonna you pick the crit so if Projector Misaligned is in there you take that over Structural Damage (if they have more shields on the side they will likely redirect to now if they have the shield failure one where you take away 1 shield from 2 sides. . . Well that is another priority). If they don't brace they are taking 5 damage which will leave them at 6-7 hull remaining and at best 1 shield. You now attack with the side arc getting with reroll and TRC's 7 damage and an accuracy. If they are at 6 you fish for structural damage if they are at 7 you plan for the ram after structural damage. Only exception is if you get shield failure.

It is highly possible to take out a VSD in one go. It is not a guarantee like a triple tap GSD but it is still a strong chance

He considered Structural Damage. He did not consider Intel Officer which has become a staple or a Concentrate Fire Command. Oh and for me I use Dodonna so that is taken into consideration.

Let's say you only have a front arc and side arc. You have 5 damage coming through with TRC's with a reroll (actually quite likely), you Intel Officer the brace (though you may want to hit with the side arc first to force the brace). From there you use APT's before the redirect goes off. With Dodonna you pick the crit so if Projector Misaligned is in there you take that over Structural Damage (if they have more shields on the side they will likely redirect to now if they have the shield failure one where you take away 1 shield from 2 sides. . . Well that is another priority). If they don't brace they are taking 5 damage which will leave them at 6-7 hull remaining and at best 1 shield. You now attack with the side arc getting with reroll and TRC's 7 damage and an accuracy. If they are at 6 you fish for structural damage if they are at 7 you plan for the ram after structural damage. Only exception is if you get shield failure.

It is highly possible to take out a VSD in one go. It is not a guarantee like a triple tap GSD but it is still a strong chance

Wait, hold up a second Lyr. The attack sequence Rules Reference part that I'm looking at indicates the defender spends his defense tokens (all / any of them, so, including redirect), before resolving damage.

So, wouldn't he redirect the damage before you get to apply any damage (and thus the redirect?) I'm not saying this necessarily changes the end result, mind you.

Also, you didn't indicate Intel Officer in your sample list above. I agree he adds quite a bit, but now we're talking a 69+4OE+7TLRC+8title+7IO+5APT = 100 pt. ship. Getting a bit pricey for a 4 hull ship :-)

EDIT:

btw, Lyr, I'm not saying this isn't an awesome ship. MC30 is my fav rebel ship, hands down.

Wait, hold up a second Lyr. The attack sequence Rules Reference part that I'm looking at indicates the defender spends his defense tokens (all / any of them, so, including redirect), before resolving damage.

So, wouldn't he redirect the damage before you get to apply any damage (and thus the redirect?) I'm not saying this necessarily changes the end result, mind you.

Defense tokens are spent during that step, but Redirects and Braces don't have an immediate effect. Those only kick in at the end once damage is applied. You spend them, then the crit happens, then damage is resolved.

Very important note that the effect of defense tokens doesn't happen until after the crit effect

Another note is when the shield redirect is spent, the defender must say which shield(s) the dMage is being redirected to. Thus, a crit that drops a shield..etc the attacker knows which shield to then use against...

Apt is a goldmine for this. Acms just don't have the potential massive effect of a "critical" crit seriously compromising the defense token usage.

This sequence , I find, has to be clearly explained a lot in tournaments....like, to almost all my opponents so far.

Holy freaking crap. The **** you learn by reading and posting on these forums. Sadly, you would have had to explain that to me, Mike.

Hahaha!

Wasn't meant as a negative on any players . Just a very important nuance that gets glossed over in the damage sequence a lot (for speedy play, which is understandable)

Holy freaking crap. The **** you learn by reading and posting on these forums. Sadly, you would have had to explain that to me, Mike.

Guess what I have! A handy dandy video!

https://youtu.be/ZkEQATZXbxE

Actually, Mike, after rereading the defense tokens details, i think this statement is wrong (although I think I understand your overall intent):

"Very important note that the effect of defense tokens doesn't happen until after the crit effect"

From my reading, the sequencing only applies to redirect.

-The evade token allows you to remove (or reroll) a die. This happens at the time of the roll, according to my reading, and according to any logic I can see. (How else can you calculate the total amount of damage suffered until the attack dice are committed?). That is to say, there is no specific language as to the Evade token's timing, thus we default to the "Defense Tokens" general language, which reads: "Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the "Spend Defense Tokens" step of an attack to produced the effects described below"

-Brace is applied when damage is totaled. That seems to indicate to me it happens before suffering any damage.

-Redirect, on the other hand, specifically indicates that its affect kicks in "when the defender suffers damage".

Yea, my MC30's are 92-100 points. They however can take on ships worth far more and win which makes them deadly.

Actually, Mike, after rereading the defense tokens details, i think this statement is wrong (although I think I understand your overall intent):

"Very important note that the effect of defense tokens doesn't happen until after the crit effect"

From my reading, the sequencing only applies to redirect.

-The evade token allows you to remove (or reroll a die). This happens at the time of the roll, according to my reading, and according to any logic I can see. (How else can you calculate the total amount of damage suffered until the attack dice are committed?). (Which is to say, there is nothing specific to the Evade token's language, at which point we default to "Defense Tokens" general language, which reads: "Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the "Spend Defense Tokens" step of an attack to produced the effects described below"

-Brace is applied when damage is totaled. That seems to indicate to me it happens before suffering any damage.

-Redirect, on the other hand, specifically indicates that its affect kicks in "when the defender suffers damage".

Correct, each token has their own set of timings. The Evade also let's you wait and see

Holy freaking crap. The **** you learn by reading and posting on these forums. Sadly, you would have had to explain that to me, Mike.

Guess what I have! A handy dandy video!

Sadly, Lyr, I would have first had to know that I was doing it wrong before I marshaled any resources to learn the correct way to do it.

Holy freaking crap. The **** you learn by reading and posting on these forums. Sadly, you would have had to explain that to me, Mike.

Guess what I have! A handy dandy video! https://youtu.be/ZkEQATZXbxE

Sadly, Lyr, I would have first had to know that I was doing it wrong before I marshaled any resources to learn the correct way to do it.

Yeah, Roc, evade can eliminate a die. However, the other defense tokens are spent but are not resolved until later

e.g.

Hit four 5 damage, one of which is a double hit and one is a crit

defense tokens time. players uses evade immediately to remove the double hit leaving a crit and two more hits for a total of three hits. Player says hes using brace and also redirect to aft shield which has 3 shields because his side has zero. Thinking the shields will absorb all damage. The player is now done with defense tokens

crit happens. Lets say the crit drawn is a shield lowering one (cant remember the name). That allows the attacker to choose a shield to lose.

Now, it is actual damage allocation. The brace happens now.

Damage is now 2 after brace

Then redirect happens. OOPS. Shield that was redirecting to has none. Therefore all the damage is applied to the original target side. etc..etc..

So, point being...its very important to properly state your defense token usage including the shield location.

And, I suppose you could watch Lyrs video... I presume it explains the same thing

Yeah, Roc, evade can eliminate a die. However, the other defense tokens are spent but are not resolved until later

e.g.

Hit four 5 damage, one of which is a double hit and one is a crit

defense tokens time. players uses evade immediately to remove the double hit leaving a crit and two more hits for a total of three hits. Player says hes using brace and also redirect to aft shield which has 3 shields because his side has zero. Thinking the shields will absorb all damage. The player is now done with defense tokens

crit happens. Lets say the crit drawn is a shield lowering one (cant remember the name). That allows the attacker to choose a shield to lose.

Now, it is actual damage allocation. The brace happens now.

Damage is now 2 after brace

Then redirect happens. OOPS. Shield that was redirecting to has none. Therefore all the damage is applied to the original target side. etc..etc..

So, point being...its very important to properly state your defense token usage including the shield location.

And, I suppose you could watch Lyrs video... I presume it explains the same thing

Other than the fact that when you Redirect you dont declare where it is being redirected to until you get to that step. Besides that you are absolutely correct.

I still say that Do you have questions about attacking, defense tokens and critical hits? READ THIS FIRST should be stickied

Defense tokens are spent prior to resolution of damage.

When spending defense tokens (under redirect defense token) it specifically says to choose a shield (then)

Therefore, shield facing for redirect must be chosen prior to resolution of damage step.

Defense tokens are spent prior to resolution of damage.

When spending defense tokens (under redirect defense token) it specifically says to choose a shield (then)

Therefore, shield facing for redirect must be chosen prior to resolution of damage step.

You are correct. I will have to enforce that more in my area then. This makes Projector Misaligned and Shield Failure more critical now. . .

Its one of my "Questions Pending Clarification"...

And has been since... January.

Not the oldest question I have waiting on...

Its one of my "Questions Pending Clarification"...

And has been since... January.

Not the oldest question I have waiting on...

THATS WHERE!!!

I knew there was a reason I was questioning this. I just could not remember the thread that we discussed it in. . . it has been so long.

In practice, it only really makes a difference against APTs, but it is a potentially HUGE difference and so people should get used to playing it correctly just to be in the habit.

In practice, it only really makes a difference against APTs, but it is a potentially HUGE difference and so people should get used to playing it correctly just to be in the habit.

And Assault Concussion Missiles. You dont have to use these cards for their effects if you dont want to.

In practice, it only really makes a difference against APTs, but it is a potentially HUGE difference and so people should get used to playing it correctly just to be in the habit.

And Assault Concussion Missiles. You dont have to use these cards for their effects if you dont want to.

That's true, actually, although that seems a lot more corner-case than the APT situation.

In practice, it only really makes a difference against APTs, but it is a potentially HUGE difference and so people should get used to playing it correctly just to be in the habit.

And Assault Concussion Missiles. You dont have to use these cards for their effects if you dont want to.

That's true, actually, although that seems a lot more corner-case than the APT situation.

Correct. It is less of a thing.