Also Vessery is 7 points too expensive. With the new upgrades available though, I'll say he's just 6 points too expensive.
Where do you get that number from? MajorJuggler stated that he thinks Vessery is even a little under if he gets a free TL with most of his shots. ...not that you have to listen and believe everything he says. I've had good success with Vessery without new titles and such.
Imperial Veterans is SWX52 ... while the highest SWX code before it is Punishing One at SWX42. That means there are NINE products planned between them! Seems like a lot.
Those are all the colored bases and dial kits in the forties, I think, and if I do remember that correctly, then that's all probably coming out at the same time, or at least in two chunks. It may not be as long as you're thinking.
Vessery will probably wet himself thinking about a TIE shuttle with a long range weapons engineer painting targets for him everywhere...
Sadly that's impossible, you can't take the long range sensors and the Shuttle title on the same ship. Long Range Sensors require that the ship have a missile and torpedo slot on his bar but the title remove them all.
I don't think they conflict, actually.
The TIE Shuttle says that your upgrade bar 'loses all [torp], [missile], and [bomb]' icons, not that it was required for the ship to have any to begin with. Since you can equip upgrades in any order you want (else how would any of the upgrades that add slots ever work?), and the Long Range Sensor upgrade doesn't SIT in the slot, just require they once have been there...just apply the long range sensors first, then the TIE shuttle.
No, I really think they conflict.
By your logic, I could equip a missile, extra munition a bomb and then equip the title.
Tie Shuttle title says that you 'lose all torpedo, missile and bomb upgrade icons'
Long Range Scanner says that you can 'equip this card only if you have a torpedo and missile icon in your upgrade bar'.
Seems pretty clear to me that you can't equip both on the same ship. Might need a FAQ to clarify it for the more skeptical.... or to show me that I'm the fool.... would not be the first time.
You could do that, sure, it's just that when you equipped the title the missile, extra munition, and bomb would go away because the slot they were in was removed. So if you wanted to pay the points for them and have to discard them before the match began...okay by me. (Similarly, if the Long Range Sensors had a torpedo and missile icon on them, the way Palpatine has two crew icons, I'd absolutely agree it definitely couldn't be equipped. Or, more specifically, that it could be - but you'd lose it the moment you equipped the TIE shuttle.)
I mean...how could something like the 'Slave-1' title ever work if you couldn't equip it in an order of your choosing, before you tried to add a torpedo to the ship? Obviously it can only function if the upgrades can be equipped in specific order. And the Long Range Scanners doesn't occupy any slots at all - it just checks to see if you have them when you equip it. Once that check is done, it doesn't interact with those upgrade icons any further.
These new upgrades bring the Defenders up to the level of the Firespray-31, I'll give them t
.....
huh?
Xanderf I'm missing your logic. I feel like your argument about the Slave I title works against your own line of thinking. I'm 100% with Red Castle on this one. Any time something conflicts, it negates the other option immediately in reaction. Squad building isn't a step by step process when you are talking about lists you put on the table. At one point in the list building both Long-range Scanners and the Tie Shuttle were both options, but once you put the upgrades on together, it immediately becomes an illegal ship. When your build is finished, It must be 1 complete, cohesive unit where every upgrade must align with each available slot as well as the other upgrades requirements.
Just think of how ridiculous this situation might be if what you were arguing was the case. Here is an example of what would happen if your line of thinking was correct-
I'm at a tournament where my opponent has the TIE shuttle and Long range Sensors equipped. I say "Hey, that doesn't work", and my opponent says "Oh, ya it does. You see, I put this on before I put this one on. So, the effect that would have negated its inclusion wasn't there when I equipped it in list building.", I would then give my opponent a long stare trying to figure out if they were being serious or not. After that I would call over the TO. I tell the TO the situation. The TO then stares at the cards, VERY, VERY hard, and determines that actually, my opponent didn't put that card on before the other, so the ship is invalid and cannot be fielded with Long range sensors. Good call TO. It was obvious he put them on in the wrong order during list building!
And this is how it would go if the way Red Castle and I see it is the correct line of thinking-
I'm at a tournament where my opponent has a Firespray with the Slave I title as well as a torp equipped. I say "Hey, that doesn't work", and my opponent says "Oh, ya it does. You see, I put this on before I put this one on. So, the effect that would have negated its inclusion wasn't there when I equipped it in list building.", I would then give my opponent a long stare trying to figure out if they were being serious or not. After that I would call over the TO. I tell the TO the situation. The TO then informs us that the ship is perfectly fine because each piece within the list is cohesive with the others. While the Firespray does not have an innate torpedo slot, the presence of the Slave I title within the build makes it available. It does not matter whether or not my opponent put his torpedoes next to his pilot card before or after he set the Slave I title next to it. It only matters that in the final build, everything is legal, and nothing conflicts.
Edited by Kdubb
I mean...how could something like the 'Slave-1' title ever work if you couldn't equip it in an order of your choosing, before you tried to add a torpedo to the ship? Obviously it can only function if the upgrades can be equipped in specific order. And the Long Range Scanners doesn't occupy any slots at all - it just checks to see if you have them when you equip it. Once that check is done, it doesn't interact with those upgrade icons any further.
It's not the same thing.
You don't have the slot until you equip the Slave 1 title. As soon as you take the title, you can equip a torpedo because you now have the requirement, a torpedo icon.
When you take the Tie Shuttle, you remove the torpedo, missile and bomb icon. You no longer fulfill the requirement to equip the Long Range Sensor modification. Since you don't have the requirement anymore, you can't have the modification, it's now illegal.
So you are making my point for me?
I mean...how could something like the 'Slave-1' title ever work if you couldn't equip it in an order of your choosing, before you tried to add a torpedo to the ship? Obviously it can only function if the upgrades can be equipped in specific order. And the Long Range Scanners doesn't occupy any slots at all - it just checks to see if you have them when you equip it. Once that check is done, it doesn't interact with those upgrade icons any further.
You don't have the slot until you equip the Slave 1 title. As soon as you take the title, you can equip a torpedo because you now have the requirement, a torpedo icon.
(emphasis mine)
That's what I'm saying, yes. Order is important. You cannot take the torpedo before you take the title, but once you do...you can.
When you take the Tie Shuttle, you remove the torpedo, missile and bomb icon. You no longer fulfill the requirement to equip the Long Range Sensor modification. Since you don't have the requirement anymore, you can't have the modification, it's now illegal.
Obviously, yes. That's why you take the Long Range Sensor mod before you take the TIE Shuttle title.
That's all I'm saying - if order matters, and it does seem to, then these do not conflict.
Interestingly, I think it's basically the same issue we are going to have with EPTs via R2-D6 when the X-Wing equips Integrated Astromech. IE., is everything required to be in a valid state at all times (in which case ejecting R2-D6 loses your EPT, and TIE Shuttle and Long Range Sensors are in conflict)...or do slots get added/removed in a specific order, and once the check is passed, things move on (in which case ejecting R2-D6 does not drop your EPT...and TIE Shuttle and Long Range Sensors do not conflict)
KNEW IT!
Been using Linked Cannons here at The Battle Parlor for almost two years... but hey now you can too.
Just when I thought I got my wallet to stop hemorrhaging red they announce this! ****! I might have to go back to work.:-(
Just when I thought I got my wallet to stop hemorrhaging red they announce this! ****! I might have to go back to work.:-(
We need three...
So you are making my point for me?
I mean...how could something like the 'Slave-1' title ever work if you couldn't equip it in an order of your choosing, before you tried to add a torpedo to the ship? Obviously it can only function if the upgrades can be equipped in specific order. And the Long Range Scanners doesn't occupy any slots at all - it just checks to see if you have them when you equip it. Once that check is done, it doesn't interact with those upgrade icons any further.
You don't have the slot until you equip the Slave 1 title. As soon as you take the title, you can equip a torpedo because you now have the requirement, a torpedo icon.
(emphasis mine)
That's what I'm saying, yes. Order is important. You cannot take the torpedo before you take the title, but once you do...you can.
When you take the Tie Shuttle, you remove the torpedo, missile and bomb icon. You no longer fulfill the requirement to equip the Long Range Sensor modification. Since you don't have the requirement anymore, you can't have the modification, it's now illegal.
Obviously, yes. That's why you take the Long Range Sensor mod before you take the TIE Shuttle title.
That's all I'm saying - if order matters, and it does seem to, then these do not conflict.
Interestingly, I think it's basically the same issue we are going to have with EPTs via R2-D6 when the X-Wing equips Integrated Astromech. IE., is everything required to be in a valid state at all times (in which case ejecting R2-D6 loses your EPT, and TIE Shuttle and Long Range Sensors are in conflict)...or do slots get added/removed in a specific order, and once the check is passed, things move on (in which case ejecting R2-D6 does not drop your EPT...and TIE Shuttle and Long Range Sensors do not conflict)
I'm still confused by your logic Xandef. :/ You seem to be stating that this build is determinant on the timing in which you place upgrades on your ship in list building? How does that work, and how is that determined legal or illegal? Is it legal the moment it comes to my mind, as long as it comes to my mind in the appropriate order, but if not, I can never use it? Or do the cards have to be physically placed in a certain order so they don't disrupt each other? What happens if a player bumps the cards out of order so they then are disrupting each other? Does the ship then forfeit its ability to use the upgrade which is then conflicting? Maybe have a time stamp beside each upgrade card as to when it was placed within the build?
I really do apologize if I'm being facetious... Our minds just seem to think in opposite directions on the subject. 
Lets stick with the Slave I example. It doesn't matter if you put the title on first, last, or in between in squad building. It just matters that when you put your upgrade cards out on the table, it's there. If I go to a tournament, and I forget my Slave I title, and have a torpedo next to my Firespray, and my opponent says "oh, you don't have the title, you'll need that for that torpedo." I would say "Oh you're right! Let me grab it!". At this moment, my build is illegal. Then, after I get the title, the moment I place it on the table, that torpedo is as much a part of the build as the rest of it. It doesn't matter one lick that I placed it there before the title. It only matters that the whole, cohesive build exists in its final form.
The Tie shuttle + Long Range Sensors is the opposite of the case of the Slave I title. Instead of the torpedo becoming instantly legal the moment I place the Slave I title on the table, Long Range Sensors become instantly illegal the moment the Tie shuttle title is placed on the board.
Either way, I will gladly eat my words if a FAQ states otherwise. I kind of like the idea of your proposed build, although, as you can tell, I believe it is 100% illegal. 
The R2-D6+EPT+IA interaction will for certain need a FAQ, as the build becomes illegal mid game, which I feel is a whole different space, and FFG can basically pick and chose what they want to happen there since it's basically an untouched space currently.
If I go to a tournament, and I forget my Slave I title, and have a torpedo next to my Firespray, and my opponent says "oh, you don't have the title, you'll need that for that torpedo." I would say "Oh you're right! Let me grab it!". At this moment, my build is illegal. Then, after I get the title, the moment I place it on the table, that torpedo is as much a part of the build as the rest of it. It doesn't matter one lick that I placed it there before the title. It only matters that the whole, cohesive build exists in its final form.
The Tie shuttle + Long Range Sensors is the opposite of the case of the Slave I title. Instead of the torpedo becoming instantly legal the moment I place the Slave I title on the table, Long Range Sensors become instantly illegal the moment the Tie shuttle title is placed on the board.
Either way, I will gladly eat my words if a FAQ states otherwise. I kind of like the idea of your proposed build, although, as you can tell, I believe it is 100% illegal.
Well, that's the thing - I think it is not the 'whole, cohesive build', but that builds iterate in the same way anything in the game does.
The FAQ addresses this, in part, regarding pilot skill. Pg 3 of the 3.2.3 FAQ reads:
Some abilities alter the pilot skill value of a ship. If several game effects alter the pilot skill of a ship, only the most recent effect is applied. For example, if a Green Squadron Pilot equips Veteran Instincts, it increases its pilot skill from 3 to 5. However, if it later receives the “Damaged Cockpit” Damage card faceup, its pilot skill is reduced from 5 to 0 (rather than 2). Next round, however, Wedge Antilles can use Swarm Tactics to raise its pilot skill to 9
...noting that VI provides "+2" to your pilot skill, and Damaged Cockpit sets your pilot skill it to 0...but you do not end up with 0 + 2 = 2. Instead, you are at 0. Period. The second effect occurs after the first and overrides it (IE., they don't "exist at the same time", or 'holistically' - rather, every card...upgrade or damage or whatever...has its effect applied strictly sequentially.)
At least, that's how I read it based on previous rulings from FFG.
No doubt, this needs a FAQ response, though!
Edited by xanderfCOLLECTION DIARY all ready too... already!
If I go to a tournament, and I forget my Slave I title, and have a torpedo next to my Firespray, and my opponent says "oh, you don't have the title, you'll need that for that torpedo." I would say "Oh you're right! Let me grab it!". At this moment, my build is illegal. Then, after I get the title, the moment I place it on the table, that torpedo is as much a part of the build as the rest of it. It doesn't matter one lick that I placed it there before the title. It only matters that the whole, cohesive build exists in its final form.
The Tie shuttle + Long Range Sensors is the opposite of the case of the Slave I title. Instead of the torpedo becoming instantly legal the moment I place the Slave I title on the table, Long Range Sensors become instantly illegal the moment the Tie shuttle title is placed on the board.
Either way, I will gladly eat my words if a FAQ states otherwise. I kind of like the idea of your proposed build, although, as you can tell, I believe it is 100% illegal.
Well, that's the thing - I think it is not the 'whole, cohesive build', but that builds iterate in the same way anything in the game does.
The FAQ addresses this, in part, regarding pilot skill. Pg 3 of the 3.2.3 FAQ reads:
Some abilities alter the pilot skill value of a ship. If several game effects alter the pilot skill of a ship, only the most recent effect is applied. For example, if a Green Squadron Pilot equips Veteran Instincts, it increases its pilot skill from 3 to 5. However, if it later receives the “Damaged Cockpit” Damage card faceup, its pilot skill is reduced from 5 to 0 (rather than 2). Next round, however, Wedge Antilles can use Swarm Tactics to raise its pilot skill to 9
...noting that VI provides "+2" to your pilot skill, and Damaged Cockpit sets your pilot skill it to 0...but you do not end up with 0 + 2 = 2. Instead, you are at 0. Period. The second effect occurs after the first and overrides it (IE., they don't "exist at the same time", or 'holistically' - rather, every card...upgrade or damage or whatever...has its effect applied strictly sequentially.)
At least, that's how I read it based on previous rulings from FFG.
No doubt, this needs a FAQ response, though!
Again, our lines of thinking are VERY different. I have never, not even once, considered that the mechanics of the in game sequential interactions should apply to my squad building at all. I mean, if you're right, all those times I put a crew card on my B-wing before I put on the B-wing/E2.... Those builds were illegal because I messed up the sequence...
I'm going to have to forfeit so many games....
I'm sorry, I still don't see this as a fix to the Defender.
The cheapest one will be at 28pts, but still PS 1 (they let Academy pilots fly this advanced fighter???) It really should have followed the Phantom in that regard with PS3 as the lowest.
You need too many upgrades before it becomes playable, and when you do that, you realize you used over a third of your squad points on something that still shoots last.
At least you tried FFG ....
Timing in squad building does not exist. Why this is even an argument is beyond all reason because it is blatantly obvious what the card is supposed to do. This is x1 on v1 level crap.
I'm still pretty sure you aren't expected to use the old Defender generics. If Glaive Squadron pilots get EPTs, I don't expect anyone will ever use any other generic Defender.
Edited by DarthEnderXI'm sorry, I still don't see this as a fix to the Defender.
The cheapest one will be at 28pts, but still PS 1 (they let Academy pilots fly this advanced fighter???)
Also Vessery is 7 points too expensive. With the new upgrades available though, I'll say he's just 6 points too expensive.
Where do you get that number from? MajorJuggler stated that he thinks Vessery is even a little under if he gets a free TL with most of his shots. ...not that you have to listen and believe everything he says. I've had good success with Vessery without new titles and such.
I'm sure if all you cared about was relative jousting value then they seem fairly priced.
Is 35 points of Colonel Vessery better, the same, or worse than 35 points of Poe Dameron?
I'm still pretty sure you aren't expected to use the old Defender generics. If Glaive Squadron pilots get EPTs, I don't expect anyone will ever use any other generic Defender.
The argument I've heard people make is that, since the Defender is a more advanced and complicated ship, it makes the pilots flying it seem less skilled by comparison. That someone who's a PS3 in a TIE Fighter seems like a PS1 when put behind the controls of this more difficult ship.I'm sorry, I still don't see this as a fix to the Defender.
The cheapest one will be at 28pts, but still PS 1 (they let Academy pilots fly this advanced fighter???)
A good pilot doesn't blame the ship! 
Also Vessery is 7 points too expensive. With the new upgrades available though, I'll say he's just 6 points too expensive.
Where do you get that number from? MajorJuggler stated that he thinks Vessery is even a little under if he gets a free TL with most of his shots. ...not that you have to listen and believe everything he says. I've had good success with Vessery without new titles and such.
I'm sure if all you cared about was relative jousting value then they seem fairly priced.
Is 35 points of Colonel Vessery better, the same, or worse than 35 points of Poe Dameron?
I'm still pretty sure you aren't expected to use the old Defender generics. If Glaive Squadron pilots get EPTs, I don't expect anyone will ever use any other generic Defender.
The argument I've heard people make is that, since the Defender is a more advanced and complicated ship, it makes the pilots flying it seem less skilled by comparison. That someone who's a PS3 in a TIE Fighter seems like a PS1 when put behind the controls of this more difficult ship.I'm sorry, I still don't see this as a fix to the Defender.
The cheapest one will be at 28pts, but still PS 1 (they let Academy pilots fly this advanced fighter???)
A good pilot doesn't blame the ship!
I really don't think players are realizing how good a free evade token is for doing 3-5 speed maneuver will be. At a minimum it should at least act as a free shield once per game. A good pilot can do it 3-5 times per game.
Also Vessery is 7 points too expensive. With the new upgrades available though, I'll say he's just 6 points too expensive.
Where do you get that number from? MajorJuggler stated that he thinks Vessery is even a little under if he gets a free TL with most of his shots. ...not that you have to listen and believe everything he says. I've had good success with Vessery without new titles and such.
I'm sure if all you cared about was relative jousting value then they seem fairly priced.
Is 35 points of Colonel Vessery better, the same, or worse than 35 points of Poe Dameron?
I'm still pretty sure you aren't expected to use the old Defender generics. If Glaive Squadron pilots get EPTs, I don't expect anyone will ever use any other generic Defender.
The argument I've heard people make is that, since the Defender is a more advanced and complicated ship, it makes the pilots flying it seem less skilled by comparison. That someone who's a PS3 in a TIE Fighter seems like a PS1 when put behind the controls of this more difficult ship.I'm sorry, I still don't see this as a fix to the Defender.
The cheapest one will be at 28pts, but still PS 1 (they let Academy pilots fly this advanced fighter???)
A good pilot doesn't blame the ship!
I really don't think players are realizing how good a free evade token is for doing 3-5 speed maneuver will be. At a minimum it should at least act as a free shield once per game. A good pilot can do it 3-5 times per game.
The only downside is control. A free evade token for taking the only (white) hard turn you have? Or any of the other 3, 4, or 5 maneuvers? INCLUDING the white k-turn?
An x7 pilot would be insane to ever take his foot off the gas! It's nearly a penalty-free PtL.
But VERY much a "boom and zoom" fighter. I almost think the x7 cries out for an Engine Upgrade as part of the de facto build, to help it keep that speed up...
The only downside is control. A free evade token for taking the only (white) hard turn you have? Or any of the other 3, 4, or 5 maneuvers? INCLUDING the white k-turn?
An x7 pilot would be insane to ever take his foot off the gas! It's nearly a penalty-free PtL.
But VERY much a "boom and zoom" fighter. I almost think the x7 cries out for an Engine Upgrade as part of the de facto build, to help it keep that speed up...
It is definite a strong ability, especially with the TIE Mk. II mod to make your speed 3 banks green.
The fact that it is an evade token, and the defender has K-turns or green maneuvers it can do to generate it goes a long way to counter stress-wing. still... 28 points for the cheapest PS1 generic, I just can't get over that. It makes them unusable compared to what you get for the same points in Interceptors or named TIE Fighters.
We can't really be expected to field Defenders with a fully loaded Bomber or Punisher, can we? Unless we are supposed to finish every 3-ship squad with a single TIE Fighter.
I'm a little worried about the TIE Advanced Prototype generics.
Edited by VulfCan this be real? Can this be real? Can this be real?
Haven't read a single post in this topic - I just saw the news!
An Imperial Veterans Pack ... EXCELLENT!
they should also include a Twin Ion Engine Mk. II on invent the Twin Ion Engine Mk. III 
I bought a second bomber because sfter the The Force Awakens stuff and the Punisher I thought they wouldn't give some love to the Bomber. Serves me for not being patient
I would love to have more pilot choices for the Bomber
The Defender hasn't been my thing, I'll see...
they should also include a Twin Ion Engine Mk. II on invent the Twin Ion Engine Mk. III
the P-sz9.7 OF DOOOM
I'm still pretty sure you aren't expected to use the old Defender generics. If Glaive Squadron pilots get EPTs, I don't expect anyone will ever use any other generic Defender.
PS1 will still have a place. 33pts for an ion double-tap, or 28pts for a token-stacking boom'n'zoom filler is a mighty handy brawling asset to a swarmlet or aces list...
Kind of a shame it doesn't include that one, really. Flying two at 28pts each looks pretty dang tempting.
still... 28 points for the cheapest PS1 generic, I just can't get over that. It makes them unusable compared to what you get for the same points in Interceptors or named TIE Fighters.
I see the problem here. Someone's been playing swarms for so long that they don't understand what an elite fighter actually is.
"Unusable". LOL, good one!