Looking over the fleet builds on here, what I see at the FLGS, and my my own fleets, I've noticed that I rarely see the command dial manipulation upgrades.

For awhile I saw some Weapons/Defense Liasons, especially with Tarkin. Lately though, it seems to be all combat upgrades all the time. The only non-combat upgrade I see regularly seems to be Engine Techs.

So then, are upgrades like Support Officer or Wing Commander worth while? Any theories on why folks aren't taking them?

They carry the Stigma that they're only insurance for when you make a Mistake. That if you were a better commander you would have the correct dials all of the time.

Personally, I don't agree with that attitude, but that's the stigma that's been handed to me every time I've discussed them with people...

I'm using a Wing Commander on my ISD in order to ensure I always have a Squad Command if needed to support a Rhymerball. I agree they're under-represented, but they definitely have a place.

They carry the Stigma that they're only insurance for when you make a Mistake. That if you were a better commander you would have the correct dials all of the time.

Personally, I don't agree with that attitude, but that's the stigma that's been handed to me every time I've discussed them with people...

If you were a better commander you wouldn't think that.

Sorry, I had to.

I happily admit I'm not a good enough player to get my commands right every time, and if I thought these guys would make the difference for me winning games I would definitely take them.

I think the "command flexibility" is really only a benefit if running significant numbers of Wave 1 squadrons.

Most other ships pretty much know what command they need. Small ones can grab whatever they want anyway and big ones usually want Navigate or Engineer.

But if you have your big VSD or ISD1 with chirenau, flight controllers, boosted comms and hanger bays (and a partridge in a pear tree) that close to 100 points of squaddies are dependent on for commands, you BETTER be able to time your squadron commands right!

Other issues I see

- The Liaisons are nice and cheap but they burn a token to use and unless you are using Tarkin as your commander, tokens are in short supply! Potentiallyyou could use your first turn token to give your weapons liaison the ability to call in a squadron command at crucial moment.

- Tarkin and Garm both provide squadron tokens as needed. In Wave 2, even a single squadron token can often be all that is needed to lock someone down or call in a fighter for Ruthless. The rest are rogues and intel....

- per second point, so much of the squadron game is now rogue based, so less command burden for those guys too.

- per second point, so much of the squadron game is now rogue based, so less command burden for those guys too.

Flexibility is what Rogue means to me, not freedom from squad commands. Being able to launch a Firespray literally first thing in your turn can ruin someone's day just as much as waiting to do so unassisted in the Squad phase. This is where the Wing Commander comes in handy - you don't ever need to PLAN a squad command, as you will always be able to react on the spot. Six points guarantees that my Rhymerball is always where it needs to be.

I'm using a Wing Commander on my ISD in order to ensure I always have a Squad Command if needed to support a Rhymerball. I agree they're under-represented, but they definitely have a place.

Indeed. Tactical flexibility cannot be overstated. Only the foolish commander considers having more options for advantage at his disposal a weakness.

Take for instance the Space Marine Tactical Squad from 40k. It is called a tactical squad for a reason. It has a selection of small arms, special weaponry, and heavy weaponry intended to make it able to engage all targets from infantry to elite troops to armor.

Take one of those elements away, and you've got a unit that can't respond adequately to a given threat. That is a weakness. The more specialized a unit becomes, the less flexible, and thus the more vulnerable it becomes to certain threats even if it means being really stunning against specific threats.

Command dial upgrades work along a similar process, giving you a broader range of tactical options to deal with a broader range of threats, while not being as specialized as other upgrades.

It's a choice a commander has to make when assembling his forces. Gamble on specialization working in your favor, or try to prepare for a broader range of variables at the cost of narrower but potentially more effective focus. It's always a gamble either way, such is all warfare, simulated or otherwise.

That's why Sun Tzu was so adamant about the idea of knowing your enemy and yourself as thoroughly as possible, so that you could make the best, most informed decisions of these sorts.

But for my money, I never discount the advantage of tactical flexibility over specialization. There's a **** good reason Tarkin is so good (and thus so expensive). You simply cannot know exactly what you're gonna be up against until you face it. The fleet building rules for Armada specifically disallow it (the potential peculiarities of certain tournament settings notwithstanding).

Support officer on a torpedo MC30 or squadron based AF-B is one of my favorite things.

For MC30s having engineering, navigation and concentrated fire when I need them, in the order I need them, can be crucial for jumping in and out of the kill zone for black dice attack runs. The AF-B squad commands are so much better when you can wait to see how the table develops before you commit to them. And that is to say nothing of the emergency punt to navigation or engineering when I get the wrong side of an exchange.

I'll grant that he's more valuable on CMD:3 ships, and even then not everything really needs him, but 4 points to know that I'll have the right order on the turn that I need it is an offer I strongly consider any vessel that requires finesse.

The 6 point captain options that cut your command dial by 1/4 are less exciting to me. They increase your options to a degree, but engineering captain is the only one I really ever consider. Spamming repair in an attempt to save a ship is something that comes up fairly frequently and has some urgency. Needing Navigation turn after turn I can also see, but I honestly feel that those are easier to anticipate. Only rarely do I find myself in a situation where I simply must have a concentrate fire or squadron over and over but that I didn't see it coming. And when i say "rarely" I mean I can't remember it ever happening.

Tokens are too valuable to spend on the liaisons. I really wanted to use them, but the cost is just too high.

Resetting your command stack is such an amazing advantage, though... I can't understand why this guy isn't getting more attention.

Some good points, thanks.

I think there is something of a stigma, seeing these upgrades almost like training wheels. I suppose I am much more confident in my ability to stack my command dials at this point. The goal would be to create a build to take advantage of the flexibility they provide.

I know I would like to take them more often, but always feel so constrained for points. Would I rather fit in a Wing Commander of Boosted Comms for instance.

At this point, people seem to favor offensive boosts over command flexibility. I wonder if I could build a list to take advantage of that?

Some good points, thanks.

I think there is something of a stigma, seeing these upgrades almost like training wheels. I suppose I am much more confident in my ability to stack my command dials at this point. The goal would be to create a build to take advantage of the flexibility they provide.

I know I would like to take them more often, but always feel so constrained for points. Would I rather fit in a Wing Commander of Boosted Comms for instance.

At this point, people seem to favor offensive boosts over command flexibility. I wonder if I could build a list to take advantage of that?

I think it really bears experimenting. As an Imp commander where I am used to fat command stacks on my star destroyers, I find there's a lot of potential value in being able to change your commands (aka plans) at a moments notice to react to battlefield changes.

I would say that high command ships are by far the optimal use for such upgrades as smaller ships with smaller command values pretty much react well to changing circumstances anyway. Not saying they couldn't benefit from them hypothetically, but that the big ships need the flexibility more.

But that's where fun, casual games come in. The chance to experiment and play around with ideas is a big part of the fun in this game (to me at least).

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change"

(Megginson, L. C. (1963). “Lessons from Europe for American Business.” Southwestern Social Science Quarterly, 44(1): 3-13.)

At this point, people seem to favor offensive boosts over command flexibility. I wonder if I could build a list to take advantage of that?

Ozzel. Setup with your opponent expecting you to slow roll or speed in, and they will program their commands accordingly. Ozzel will let you mess with that predictability - by suddenly changing the turn upon which you will engage fleets. As I saw in the battle report on your blog, Ozzel can pull off some serious tricks! Just turn to the dark side... ;-)

And on the topic, I think Wing Commanders and wave 1 squadrons are the answer to all the rogues we see flying around now. A good alpha strike with pinpoint precision timing is well worth the 6pt cost.

I'm using a Wing Commander on my ISD in order to ensure I always have a Squad Command if needed to support a Rhymerball. I agree they're under-represented, but they definitely have a place.

And on the topic, I think Wing Commanders and wave 1 squadrons are the answer to all the rogues we see flying around now. A good alpha strike with pinpoint precision timing is well worth the 6pt cost.

And on the topic, I think Wing Commanders and wave 1 squadrons are the answer to all the rogues we see flying around now. A good alpha strike with pinpoint precision timing is well worth the 6pt cost.

"answer" may be too strong of a word. They are good yes but this game is far too balanced for something like rock, paper, scissors

It's funny you should say that. Perhaps I should introduce you to my roommate and I's Grand Unifying Rock Theory.

Looking over the fleet builds on here, what I see at the FLGS, and my my own fleets, I've noticed that I rarely see the command dial manipulation upgrades.

For awhile I saw some Weapons/Defense Liasons, especially with Tarkin. Lately though, it seems to be all combat upgrades all the time. The only non-combat upgrade I see regularly seems to be Engine Techs.

So then, are upgrades like Support Officer or Wing Commander worth while? Any theories on why folks aren't taking them?

The problem with the Liasons is that you will need to burn a token to change the dial. Tokens that you may want to save for something else or tokens that you do not have. (unless you have Tarkin or Garm) the Commanders though those are sure fire things that will trigger.. so more Wing Commander or Engineering Captains for me.

I've yet to really need to switch any command to anything else. Ergo, I don't use liaisons, as I much rather pour out more fire and kill my opponent faster than switch commands when I don't have to.

Sometimes I do make command dial mistakes... But it's not often enough to justify the cost of most command dial manipulation for me.

Sometimes I do make command dial mistakes... But it's not often enough to justify the cost of most command dial manipulation for me.

This.

Sometimes I do make command dial mistakes... But it's not often enough to justify the cost of most command dial manipulation for me.

This.

But is it worth the 6 points to make it a complete non-issue? I would think so, especially if Squads are a vital component of your fleet. Eng Captains if you tank, Nav Officers if you need a quick escape, Tac Experts for an Escort. Each one allows you to keep a command ALWAYS available, which makes the ship in question able to focus on the other three aspects without worry. For six points I will ALWAYS be able to do something. That's value right there, as long as you make it something you want.

And on the topic, I think Wing Commanders and wave 1 squadrons are the answer to all the rogues we see flying around now. A good alpha strike with pinpoint precision timing is well worth the 6pt cost.

I don't think the wing commander is necessary. Wave 1 squadrons are much more efficient than ships with Rogue, which pay a premium for that ability. Simply knowing when the dogfight will break out (not hard, usually turns 2-4) and making sure at least some of your carriers have squadron commands for each of those turns is all you really need. Heavy use of rogue is more for fleets that can't run carriers (MC30+CR90 is the only example at this time, though, since Squadron 2 is perfectly functional) or for pounding it into your opponent that the days of squadron-less builds are done with massed firesprays.

I find the 3x VSD list with Tarkin and weapons liaison on every ship is a nice list. Just spam move order+engineering token for 4 turns, and then engineering+engineering for the last 2.

You end up with far more manoeuvrable VSDs than usual, +1 shield per turn and a focus fire/squadron command at the exact moment it's needed, every time.

I like to run my big ship lists ( MC80, Assault frigates) with leia, in an CR90 ( as I always have one floating about in my lists, for activation manipulation ) all command flex you want for two extra points...

Tempo is very important (I will describe tempo as the speed of the attacking ships) these upgrades allow you to change tempo via the command dials while being able to respond with a key command at exactly the right time without worry. In fencing we are trained to change and mix up our tempo, we'll go forwards slowly with our feet and fast with our blade or fast with our feet but hold back the blade. In essence hiding what we are doing and changing it up so our opponent can't guess.

I have found that mostly my fleets will be choosing between two commands and maybe a stored token for the third command or extra effect. Mostly "good players" are the ones that are getting their sequence of orders right. Usually as they are playing into a fixed sequence based on the speed of the two fleets at the start of the game. At the start of the game you deploy at speed 1, you bank a maneuver token now during turn 2 your opponent who can see the "Wing Commander" is expecting something to happen with your squadrons. Now, things start to go crazy, you can change speed from 0 - 1 and use the token to go back up next turn while executing squadron commands via Wing Commander or accelerate to 3 and then hit the squadron commands next turn.

As such these are not about having to guess, but rather how to completely mess up the tempo of your advance as to mess up the strategy of someone who is guessing. Then of course the game after you dropped to speed 0 on turn 2 you follow up with a CF Command and continue at speed 1.