I think it did make the tala-type filler a lot harder to use, the TLT meta.

There was an earlier comment about the Bossk+Gunner combo on a YV, and it is extremely potent(I used it with a tactician for that double stress action), with 5 Z-95s as an escort. The trouble is, the YV is really easy to burn down, and is an absolute MoV pinata. It's also not amazing in terms of damage output vs beef for what it costs. It's great against green dice though.

I do think the meta is headed toward beef with TLTs in the meta, though I think there's more room for YT-1300s than people think. It's just that C3P0 isn't the amazing defense he used to be. He's still great, just not so much in the TLT meta. 3 points for a free 5/8+ evade is great.

I don't think the TIE/Z filler is harder to use because of TLT, I think it's harder to use because of the likes of Super Corran and Poe and Soontir. Aces present a real problem for a ship with only 2 attack dice.

TLT didn't really create these aces, just trimmed away the 60 point fat turret they were/would have been attached to. The current meta is like Fat Turretwing, minus the fat turrets lol.

I actually agree vehemently here

TLTs absolutely prey upon high value ships, especially ye ole two ships which got away with trivially boosting out of arc and using mindless PWTs to dice you into oblivion. Well, now two can play at that game, except you get more TLTs

Apart from thrusters, TLTs really get around defensive tech (defense tokens, c3po) by splitting the damage between two attacks that allow no range 3 bonus. Furthermore, the fact that they aren't arc-locked makes it far more difficult for an ace to just broll/boost out of a shot.

Now, a normal TLT isn't enough to crack your corrans/poes/soontirs unless you have some incredible luck, which I most certainly do not (quite the opposite in fact ). But then, I tried out the TLT R4 Thug. Holy **** this thing'll pop holes through a regenerating, thruster Poe!

For rebels, well they don't even need dice. Tactician K-wings and the BTL-a4 r3-a2, god of stess, will neuter your aces without sh*tty green dice intervening

When it comes to considering matchups, the TLT Y is a flexible addition that doesn't have nearly as many problems as the typical B-wing does when it comes to chasing down hyper-mobile ships. Of course, this doesn't mean it's even close to as easy to use as a fat high PS PWT or pre-errata whisper, because it's still low PS without re-positioning capabilities and an easily exploited doughnut-hole which can make planning out formations far more complex than it seems.

I've personally been finding the old PS 1-2 generics to be more and more useless. Although they'll plaster opposing TLTs, they just suffer against aces. After planning and outplaying the opponent, your Z-95 swarm isn't putting **** through the guaranteed defensive tech of your typical ace. They're simply far too unreliable, and you have the dice to blame for that. The TLTs have far better chances of success and are far easier to apply.

There is, however, a silver-lining in the generic EPT. Crackshot and Juke Ties have been performing in a similar vein to TLTs, finally resulting in generics that can reliably damage aces after going through the trouble of trapping them. Even better, they devour TLTs with their excellent dials and higher PS of 4.

But yeah, a bunch of PS 1-2 fillers really blows. I've flown a ~40 point APT Nera with 4-5 Z's before and Nera will kill one or two ships and die and then your 60 points of Z's end up doing absolutely nothing.

The Meta as I see it in store championship season-

• Thrusters
• TLT
• Regen
• Stress
• 3+ attack Turret
• Guidance Chip Munitions....???

I think this is correct for the most part, so I'll quote it and add my thoughts here, though they've been in other places as well.

It's essentially become/going to continue to be an upgrade card focused meta for generics (whether that's just based on adding firepower or other elements like stress). Those mentioned above are a good start, but we'll see some Juke and Crackshot as well. Beyond that, just like always, we'll see the good high PS pilots that we've been seeing. Hard to know if Degnar is going to make a splash but the Ghost has enough going on that it will have combinations that make it effective and change the way people fly. We'll see if munitions make a comeback with the unknown cards, but either way I think that TLT Ys will be the dominant ship in the meta, well beyond any other ship.

basically, what you need to be competitive is reliable

thrusters are reliable, TLTs are mostly reliably, regen is completely dice independent, so is stress control (apart from flechette cannon...which no one uses), and even the bygone dark ages of fat PWTs was awash with re-rolls, focus mods, and gunner

because let's face it, the spikey dice in this game are bull and win/lose games far too often for comfort

guidance chip munitions will need to make munitions really **** reliable for them to see any play, though their expendable nature may still interfere with that

I know that TLTs are beatable and I know they aren't the evil bane of the game but ... Man... They are dull to play against. If all I have to look forward to in store championship season is TLTs on TLTs, I might have to reconsider going this year.

Honestly I'd rather watch two quad TLT players duke it out than watch a fat turret mobile for the 47th time. Positioning would play a critical role in that fight.

basically, what you need to be competitive is reliable

This is why among other things I really think palp with aces is going to be a real strong meta presence for the foreseeable future. With the inquisitor promising to maybe give an alternate ace and a few actually viable upgrade variations, the consistency that list can output while flown well is incredible.

Honestly I'd rather watch two quad TLT players duke it out than watch a fat turret mobile for the 47th time. Positioning would play a critical role in that fight.

Experience suggests that it's initiative that plays the critical role in that fight.

Around me, there's not really a meta. We just started our official league at the FLGS (FINALLY, CONSISTENT PLAYERS!) and we had four show today. I led the day, going 3-0 with dual Aggressors. There was a Patrol Leader + 4 Academies, Poe/Rookie/Blue/Blue, and Fel/Vader/PalpaShuttle.

I know that TLTs are beatable and I know they aren't the evil bane of the game but ... Man... They are dull to play against. If all I have to look forward to in store championship season is TLTs on TLTs, I might have to reconsider going this year.

Are you seeing all that many 4 TLT builds out there? We saw a number of the locally initially, but after that first league tournament, they pretty much disappeared... The 4 TIE Advanced with the X1 titles ("Oops we over costed that fighter" refit), 3 x Accuracy Corrector and an Ace like Vader are a rough one to face and tear through the Y-Wings pretty easily. Frankly, playing a few TLTs in my builds I find them unable to reliably tag anything with 3 Green dice, so even a basic TIE is a challenge to kill... OTOH, low agility ships are easy to tag,.. But just my observations locally, YMMV...

Honestly I'd rather watch two quad TLT players duke it out than watch a fat turret mobile for the 47th time. Positioning would play a critical role in that fight.

Experience suggests that it's initiative that plays the critical role in that fight.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how. Assuming no points are put into an engine upgrade or R7-T1 or BB-8 or whatever for positional abilities, the only thing I can think of that it matters for is bumping for action denial. Which matters but isn't very important with 3 unmodified reds vs. One probably unmodified green.

Explain to me how it matters. I've never seen a quad TLT ditto battle before. Is it forfeiting initiative to see where your opponent sets up his ships so you can counter place? Are you not aware of the simultaneous attack rule?

Biggs is going to become a staple again for Rebels.

As for Poe, PS10 lets him keep targets in arc; but he can't dodge arcs nearly as well as a Soontir or a Vader without the BR.

IG-88s should make a strong comeback if Poe dominates the meta. Being able to alpha down a regen Poe and to survive TLTs is a pretty good combination. Their struggle against Soontir is the only thing keeping them down right now. That and stresshogs, but those can be alpha'd down before it shoots ~70% of the time with Glittercrack.

Honestly I'd rather watch two quad TLT players duke it out than watch a fat turret mobile for the 47th time. Positioning would play a critical role in that fight.

Experience suggests that it's initiative that plays the critical role in that fight.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how. Assuming no points are put into an engine upgrade or R7-T1 or BB-8 or whatever for positional abilities, the only thing I can think of that it matters for is bumping for action denial. Which matters but isn't very important with 3 unmodified reds vs. One probably unmodified green.

Explain to me how it matters. I've never seen a quad TLT ditto battle before. Is it forfeiting initiative to see where your opponent sets up his ships so you can counter place? Are you not aware of the simultaneous attack rule?

Bumping is the issue. In a mirror match (or even in a rough mirror match like Mux/3 Thugs) it's very much a war of attrition as you know, so every little bit matters. This assumes that both players have hit the skill ceiling of quad TLT maneuvering.

How do you guys think Mangler Ten will do now that Biggs is really useful again? An uncancelable crit is amazing in my opinion, makes me not worry about green dice walls and mangler gives you a crit nearly every time even when stressed (which is my biggest concern going forward)

I have been think of stress shruggers and found:

Ibtisam with Ezra will loves stress

Tycho hoards stress

Defenders, especially Vessery, doesn't really care after getting an initial TL

Epi leader can help with stressed out pilots.

Bossk crewed ships laugh at stress

Scum Boba can survive but his blind spot is glaring when stressed

Guri doesn't care

K4 ships don't care really

Drea is nearly Tycho with stress after TL number 1

Who am I missing?

Things with Lone Wolf can be pretty stress resistant. Chiraneau with Predator is as well. Gunner helps a lot with stress.

So I hit the squad builder for some competitive list building, and I was a bit saddened by my list building experience.

I prefer to play Rebels, and I think we are on the verge of getting to the point where the game was with Fat turret+ace, at least with Rebels. I mean, I open up the squadbuilder, I fiddle around for a few minutes, I look at what I came up with, and then I instantly think "Oh, Poe/Corran/Miranda fit better there. And look! Just enough room for a stresshog."

Anyone else having these issues right now? I love to be creative with my lists, and I really hope what is released by Store Championship time gives enough flavor to the game to get me excited in competitive list building again, but right now it is not going so well. I'm especially bothered by how powerful the stresshog is right now. He is close to an auto-include in any list that has room for him, as he is one of, if not thee most cost efficient ship right now. When you run him, you basically are paying 26 points to shut down the opponents top ace, which is always going to be a positive trade in your favor. Perhaps he isn't the greatest take against swarms, and I really hope the Gozanti makes swarms more prevalent again just so he isn't in every single rebel list.

I like the discussion going on of stress-resistant ships, but the issue there is you can't have EVERY ship in your build be stress resistant.... Or can you? I'd love to hear some lists that are competitive in any match-up, but perform especially well against stress.

"Oh, Poe/Corran/Miranda fit better there. And look! Just enough room for a stresshog."

This pretty much nails it. I've tried some creative lists involving moldy crows, namely the 6 dice miranda and death star cannon dash, but I always come back to picking two of those four ships and adding a TLT or a blocker depending on points.

The stresshog isn't the problem.

Seeing Poe/Corran/Miranda/Soontir/Vader/Whipser in every god damned list is the problem. Maybe if your opponent's ships weren't invincible as long as they got their 5 actions a turn there wouldn't be a need for a ship that can double stress something automatically.

Maybe if DASH'S ENTIRE DIAL TURNING GREEN wasn't happening also. Jesus Christ.

It's one of the few generic ships that performs well in this meta.

As for aces being in every lust, that's because when you stack enough power upgrades and abilities on a ship they act as force multipliers and you end up with a 48 point ship that's better than 48 points of TIEs or B-Wings or Scyks or whatever. If it ends up being your super 39 points vs their normal 39 points in a game then you have already won.

The stresshog isn't the problem.

Seeing Poe/Corran/Miranda/Soontir/Vader/Whipser in every god damned list is the problem. Maybe if your opponent's ships weren't invincible as long as they got their 5 actions a turn there wouldn't be a need for a ship that can double stress something automatically.

Maybe if DASH'S ENTIRE DIAL TURNING GREEN wasn't happening also. Jesus Christ.

It's one of the few generic ships that performs well in this meta.

As for aces being in every lust, that's because when you stack enough power upgrades and abilities on a ship they act as force multipliers and you end up with a 48 point ship that's better than 48 points of TIEs or B-Wings or Scyks or whatever. If it ends up being your super 39 points vs their normal 39 points in a game then you have already won.

Best summary of Stackpole I ever heard, that's for sure.

I must agree I don't think tlt is as bad as phantom, pre nurf phantom could close out a whole squad on his own. Like that guy who wins pool by clearing the whole table before you get to your turn. Poe also isn't that hard to beat either, poe is only as good as he is because for his points you can still fit in tlt and stuff like that without taking upgrades off of him like you would have to with corran. I can deal with this new metta, they say big ships are out, but I've been killing rebel lists with Oicunn and whisper lately and it really has not been too big of a challenge. I think this meta is still pretty open.

Looking at all the new stuff coming out in the next couple months I think we still have some new builds comming too. So I think the game is still sitting in a very open and fun place right now

The stresshog isn't the problem.

Seeing Poe/Corran/Miranda/Soontir/Vader/Whipser in every god damned list is the problem. Maybe if your opponent's ships weren't invincible as long as they got their 5 actions a turn there wouldn't be a need for a ship that can double stress something automatically.

Maybe if DASH'S ENTIRE DIAL TURNING GREEN wasn't happening also. Jesus Christ.

It's one of the few generic ships that performs well in this meta.

As for aces being in every lust, that's because when you stack enough power upgrades and abilities on a ship they act as force multipliers and you end up with a 48 point ship that's better than 48 points of TIEs or B-Wings or Scyks or whatever. If it ends up being your super 39 points vs their normal 39 points in a game then you have already won.

Best summary of Stackpole I ever heard, that's for sure.

but the (not) funny thing is that he's 146% right in what he said.

How bad is the Phantom nerf? I mean I get it's annoying, and not as good, but I still like flying Whisper, then again, I haven't played outside my own home yet.

The stresshog isn't the problem.

Seeing Poe/Corran/Miranda/Soontir/Vader/Whipser in every god damned list is the problem. Maybe if your opponent's ships weren't invincible as long as they got their 5 actions a turn there wouldn't be a need for a ship that can double stress something automatically.

Maybe if DASH'S ENTIRE DIAL TURNING GREEN wasn't happening also. Jesus Christ.

It's one of the few generic ships that performs well in this meta.

As for aces being in every lust, that's because when you stack enough power upgrades and abilities on a ship they act as force multipliers and you end up with a 48 point ship that's better than 48 points of TIEs or B-Wings or Scyks or whatever. If it ends up being your super 39 points vs their normal 39 points in a game then you have already won.

Kanan is not going to break dash.

What made dash powerful before was being able to fully modify attacks while also barrel rolling and boosting in one go.

Boost + rill on the large base is way faster than any of the white maneuvers plus one of those actions.

How bad is the Phantom nerf? I mean I get it's annoying, and not as good, but I still like flying Whisper, then again, I haven't played outside my own home yet.

it must now de-cloak at the beginning of Activation phase, so now it's an unpredictable jouster, not OP-arcdodger.

and yeah, there are now stress-spammers at range that can deal 2 streess per turn.

it's no more THE MOST HORRIFYING BASTARD ON THE LOOSE

How bad is the Phantom nerf? I mean I get it's annoying, and not as good, but I still like flying Whisper, then again, I haven't played outside my own home yet.

it must now de-cloak at the beginning of Activation phase, so now it's an unpredictable jouster, not OP-arcdodger.

and yeah, there are now stress-spammers at range that can deal 2 streess per turn.

it's no more THE MOST HORRIFYING BASTARD ON THE LOOSE

That would now be Soontir, THE MOST ELECTRIFYING MAN IN SPACE ENTERTAINMENT.

Soontir is the best! my absolute favorite.