This is my second post dealing with the Shadowlands in the new L5R. I enjoyed the discussion in that thread, and found most of the replies interesting input. In light of that, I have decided to give a little thought as to how I think the Spider should have been implemented in the game.

First off, while I do think that having a Shadowlands "clan" in the game is bad both thematically and mechanically, I do see that a Spider-type clan is important and can fit both of those. This is not a "get rid of the Spider" thread.

One of the best things about L5R is that the villains are not just Fu-Leng and the Shadowlands Baddies, but villains appear out of the clans themselves. A lot of the drama in the story comes from players within the clan attempting to corrupt it, with other players attempting to purify it. More drama comes from the struggles the clans have to face, and whether they face it with honour or disgrace. The Shadowlands can be used as a big threat in the story every now and then, but it really serves the story better as part of the setting.

The Shadowlands is the larger evil that threatens Rokugan. It is the prefect symbol of pure evil - it is relentless in it's assault. If Rokugan was passive against it, it would eventually destroy all - it's the constant actions of the citizens that keep it to the outskirts. That is the backdrop upon which all other stories are projected.

Using the above, I always thought that the Spider would have been better implemented as a clan of corrupted humans. Those who become corrupted are cast out and find a home among their own kind. Their struggles would be great, and their stories just as great.

1. They are corrupted or choose to live among those who are. They are looked down upon and feared by many of the populace. What struggles do those people face every day?

2. They live where no one else would. Perhaps they live in a tainted area of Rokugan, or a rugged production-less section, or maybe just outside the Wall in shacks they lean up against the stone. Think of Indian Reservations as a guide. If that land was suddenly of value, would these people be relocated?

3. They require Jade, but have no local source for it. They are dependent on the rest of Rokugan for the Jade they need. How do they feel about that? How does Rokugan feel about some of their Jade going to these corrupt?

4. The clan has the framework to allow for stories of great honour, and great evil. Does a member rise above his conditions and achieve greatness, or does he fight against the injustices against his people? Does he do these things with honour, or with evil? I realize that the Spider is there for players that like playing the bad guy, but every clan can have it's "bad guy", and these guys provide a simpler place for those players (like the Spider of old) while still attracting those who enjoy the story of honour coming from the darkest places.

Anyways, there are a lot of other story options found in a clan like this, and the best part is that it allows for both stories equally (good and evil). Plus it saves the Shadowlands from being watered down, and allows it to be the huge threat it really is when needed for the story.

I hope I was able to describe the vision in my head in a way that worked, and I look forward to hearing your input.

Well, they would have an interesting relationship with the Kuni, at the very least.

I'd like to know what the goals of the clan would be. What is it that their leadership wants, and what does the rest of Rokugan expect out of them?

The Spider Clan was a movement that originated in the CCG as a means to balance the Dishonor victory condition. Prior to the existence of the Spider Clan, Dishonor was not a viable deck theme on a tournament level due to the existence of an entire faction which auto-wins against it. So, during the end of the Lotus arc, specifically the Truest Test expansion set, they released a Spider Clan Stronghold which let you play Spider Clan personalities without losing honor.

During the Samurai Edition arc, the Race for the Throne, the Shadowlands faction was replaced by the Spider Clan in the CCG. In the setting, the Spider Clan was Daigotsu's attempt to place his heir on the Throne of Rokuan through (reasonably) legitimate means. As the descendant of Hantei, after all, the line of Daigotsu could claim lineage from Tengoku. The Spider Clan during those days were infiltrators, monks, and tainted samurai working their master's will in secret. Originally, the Spider Clan was supposed to disband as a faction if it failed to claim the Throne. Instead, it lingered into Celestial Edition, where the faction's players were supposed to decide "Stay as a Clan" or "Return to the Horde". It was initially fairly pro-Horde, until it was revealed that it was not going to be Daigotsu's / Fu Leng's Horde, but Kali-Ma's Horde. So, the pro-Spider Clan, pro-Daigotsu playerbase rallied, and turned it back to "Stay as a Clan". In Rokugan, the Spider Clan were recognized during the deaths of Kali-Ma, Fu Leng, and Daigotsu through the Goddesses story, with some very... heated reactions from the fans. Some loved it. Some REALLY hated it.

Emperor Edition saw the Age of Exploration, which would prove to be the golden age of the Spider Clan. It was, literally, when the Spider could have their cake and eat it too. They got to be all scary evil Tainted madmen in the story, while still participating nominally in the storyline. Things were not quite the same in the player base as the setting, however, and there was still a sense of resentment from several player groups. Ivory Edition, and the selection of the Heir, actually saw the Spider Clan finally start acting like samurai in many places. Evil, Shourido emphasized samurai, but samurai none the less. There were even strong factions in the player base of the Clan (and the setting; see Winter Court IV) who out and out rejected Jigoku. This severely disenfranchised the former Shadowlands Horde players, who grew in many cases to no longer see the Spider Clan as THEIR faction.

And then we have Kanpeki's rebellion, the first Story Path Vote, and the sale of L5R. And honestly? Now that I have had some time and distance to put things into perspective? The Spider Clan have gone from one identity crisis to another for all eight years it has existed.

What's the take away from this?

If you want to implement a Clan of Tainted Samurai? The Spider Clan circa 4th Edition Core Rules is a good example of what that would look like. They are, however, firmly belonging in the Alternative Rokugan Rules section of the Book of Water, along with monks, minor clans, and Imperials. They made an awesome CCG faction, with a beautiful legacy of being the Designated Bad Guy. Seriously, some of the best friends I have in the L5R community comes from my time playing a Spider Clan deck, as a Spider Clan player. Emre, Mark, Sparks, Tom... the entire Winter Court IV delegation... there are some seriously awesome people in the Spider Clan community. But their use in the RPG? That was a SERIOUS challenge to overcome.

Understand HOW you want to use the Spider Clan before you do, and understand the baggage you are taking with it. EVERYONE has an opinion about the Spider Clan, and not even those of us who were part of it really understand everything that happened or what it meant.

This sounds like of like the "leper colony" clan -- which I think is potentially interesting!

Personally, I wouldn't treat them as a "clan" as such, since that term implies a social role in Rokugan that I don't think Team Taint would have. Instead I'd treat them as a faction a la the Brotherhood or the Naga: they have their own internal organization, but aren't integrated into the normal fabric of samurai society. Rokugan accepts their existence because the Empire likes having a place to dump everybody who gets Tainted, mostly out of sight and out of mind, and there are stories about members of this group who rose above their ill fortune to do wondrous things -- but there are also stories about members of this group who embraced their corruption and became unholy monsters. So the Phoenix and Unicorn kind of patronizingly try to help those unfortunates, the Lion leave them to sink or swim on their own merits,the Scorpion keep one eye on them at all times, the Crane wish they could forget such a group exists, and the Crab form an alliance with those among them who want to go down swinging. (In other words, the Damned and the Deathseekers stop being groups within the Crab and the Lion, and start being traditions in the Brotherhood of Taint formed largely of ex-Crab and ex-Lion samurai.) Sometimes one of their less-Tainted number shows up at court, but only with a samurai watchdog to make sure they don't infect anybody else.

It could make for great stories!

EDITED TO ADD: sndwurks, I'm assuming the question here is for the setting/RPG rather than the card game as such, which I realize may be an incorrect assumption. But it gets a lot more flexible if you don't have to think about it from the perspective of decks and victory conditions. It sounds like what PsiNorm is proposing is a broader version of the Deathseekers and the Damned/sitting in a monastery drinking Jade Petal Tea for the rest of your life, rather than anything with a specific connection to Daigotsu and the IC/OOC history there. Basically: jettisoning the canonical version and rethinking the whole concept of "Tainted faction" from the ground up.

Much of what's been said is already what's been happening in the clan. The Daigotsu clan itself features a large number of the clan's Tainted individuals. Most of the clan is situated in the colonies right now, with the Susumu and Spider monks being the ones in the Empire itself.

As for tainted individuals, you might be better off having it as a story cycle that leads to a neutral faction or series of personalities that deals with them directly.

I think having the Spider Clan as the Shourido Clan makes a lot of sense, and I am a firm believer in the separation of the Spider Clan from Shadowlands. Have Shadowlands become the terrifying corrupting influence it has the chance to be. Yes Oni are an important aspect of the Horde, but the taint has so much potential. Combine that with their being a very dishonorable, and focused Spider Clan, that has its origins among the Fallen, but now walk a different path, I feel that makes them all the stronger.

Spider Clan to me have been these Shourido Samurai Monks, with their origins always hovering about them, but choosing to walk this other path, a path without taint, because it takes more power to do that. The taint to them being the easy path, the path of a weakling, while choosing Shourido, the path of true freedom, is the only true way of the Spider. It;s one of the reasons that when the Mantis saved Shourido I was so excited, Shourido for the Mantis fits, but in a different way than for the Spider. Similar to how Bushido is different to the Scorpion compared to the Lion.

^Oh yes, the Spider as some sort of "Fu Leng Clan" would be so much better than the "Jigoku Clan". Every Great Clan takes after their founding Kami, and the Spider shouldn't be different, even though Fu Leng did not found the clan (at least technically). A clan of narcissistic samurai with a touch of paranoia who are also the second best at everything except courage and patience (in which they are the worst), people who like to exploit dark and forbidden powers then get away with it scott-free after double-crossing said powers... oh yeah, there is a lot of potential!

@Kinzen -

I just wanted to provide the full information on the origin of the Spider Clan from both an in-setting and an out-of-setting way. More information is never a bad thing, and making a different kind of Spider Clan still carries with it some of the baggage.

Regarding the main topic of the Clan of the Damned -

The numbers of samurai who become Tainted were never truly that great, barring two fairly sizable disasters in (documented) Rokugani history. Yes, you would have your Tainted Crab in sufficient numbers to constitute a faction within their Clan. See the Damned for more information. However, your other Clans would only on rare occasion become Tainted, and then it was usually the socially acceptable thing to either retire and drink Jade Petal Tea or commit seppuku and save your soul.

So, what happened in the world of Rokugan to create a large enough population of Tainted samurai that they have their own Clan? Here are some possible answers...

1) The Fu Leng Solution - The First Day of Thunder was not as resounding of a success as had been planned. The Seven Thunders succeeded in weakening Fu Leng, but not killing him. It is enough to allow for peace, however, and in time, Fu Leng dies but not before having an heir. This heir (lets call him Daigotsu) kills his father, however, and presents his head to the Emperor. Hantei Genji allows there to be a peace agreement between them. Daigotsu is acknowledged as the leader of a Great Clan, and they claim control of the land to the south of the Crab lands, literally the Shadowlands. The human followers of Fu Leng (of which there were many) form a sustainable set of families in this region, and samurai who fall to the Taint are expected to swear fealty.

2) The Rain of Blood - What happens when the entire Empire has to make an Earth roll or become Tainted? That's practically what happened during the Rain of Blood, and a possible side effect could be the creation of the Spider Clan to handle all the Tainted Samurai who wish to still serve.

3) The Demonic Foreign Legion - This was one of the directions of the Spider Clan under WC IV that got some traction. The idea is that as it is illegal to be Tainted within Rokugan's borders, those who did become Tainted would become an army which would fight in foreign lands.

^Oh yes, the Spider as some sort of "Fu Leng Clan" would be so much better than the "Jigoku Clan". Every Great Clan takes after their founding Kami, and the Spider shouldn't be different, even though Fu Leng did not found the clan (at least technically). A clan of narcissistic samurai with a touch of paranoia who are also the second best at everything except courage and patience (in which they are the worst), people who like to exploit dark and forbidden powers then get away with it scott-free after double-crossing said powers... oh yeah, there is a lot of potential!

That's an incorrect assertion if you look at some of the various families in the clan. The Susumu and monks alone have enough patience to match any other clan out there and the whole thing about getting away scott-free with any of these "said" powers is ridiculous. It's the same attempt to just write off the clan without really looking into it.

and the whole thing about getting away scott-free with any of these "said" powers is ridiculous.

No, it is actually canon regarding Fu Leng. He screwed over the Lying Darkness big time before the Fall of the Kami, first learning magic from it then LOLNOPE'ing out from their deal by cutting the Nothing with a crystal sword.

and the whole thing about getting away scott-free with any of these "said" powers is ridiculous.

No, it is actually canon regarding Fu Leng. He screwed over the Lying Darkness big time before the Fall of the Kami, first learning magic from it then LOLNOPE'ing out from their deal by cutting the Nothing with a crystal sword.

If I recall correctly, that's another one of the lore elements that was turned into a "some say..." sidebar in 4th ed. I'll see if I can find the reference.

~~~~

Anyway, I have to agree without those who've said (here and going back to the old forums) that it would take a serious change to the rest of Rokugan to have an openly-Tainted Great Clan make sense within the setting.

Personally, I like the idea of the Spider Clan as the "clan of last chances" where outcasts and misfits go to redeem themselves, or at least find a place where they're not met with constant disdain and disgust.

I always liked the "clan of outsiders and last chances" idea with the preference of being a faction of villains. I always liked the way the Spider was described in "Hawk Among Sparrows" and in Emperor Edition where they described the Spider as serving the empress loyally, as long as the line remained strong, and then seeking power through the system, like the war of the heirs ultimately was. If they just kept the Spider from the "coup the throne and pour taint all over it" plot and allowed just evil, power seeking, samurai in the setting, following the mantra of Shourido it would've been fine. Plots to gain power in the imperial bureaucracy (The Susumu and the Otomo) or missions to obtain possibly forbidden lore or magic (the blood of Kali Ma) or even grand schemes to assume powerful allies (The Heir conflict or the progressive movement). All of these were fun as usually it got another clan or two involved and led to fun times.

Leave them on the fringes and a few select areas in the empire proper ( I LOVED the idea of the Spider gaining the ruins of Otosan Uchi and its surrounding port cities to better transport the riches of the colonies to the empire proper) and let them be a significantly powerful clan, stationed to conquer the outside world for the empire however far enough to keep their armies away from the throne, but not distant enough to make them meaningless. Their military dominance of the colonies could have been emphasized more.

All they needed to do was move Kanpeki from the "drown all in taint" that we was forced into to more how he was in Hawk Among Sparrows and tone the tainted down from "must kill everything" to more Daigotsu Bofana and Arakan levels. I enjoyed Arakan's desperation to escape a life of dishonor and death by turning to the spider and the plots that started from it. He was a great example of how a Spider character and villian could also have a fantastic story with it.

I LOVED my evil little Susumu family and shourido dark samurai guys with the ninjas and monks in the background, freaking loved it.

Hopefully they will keep that style of Spider clan.

The Spider Clan existance is a rough topic, specially when it goes on the RPG side. In my opinion, I will say that the Spider Clan being the vilain of the Empire just don't fit at all. It's even worst if they keep their Great Clan status and clearly acts as the vilain, it's like taking the Empire as stupid people. That just don't fit. In my games, I take them as the "Redeemer Clan", a bit like MaxKilljoy said. It's not because they are tainted, that they cannot serve the Empire.

I would even say that Kanpeki's going for the throne isn't bad neither, if it's with the optic of: "He's the descendant of Hantei" and not with the : "I'm going to great THE Clan". That's just asking for the doom of the clan.

Now as how to implement them. I personally think they should no longer be with the Shadowland, that's my opinion. They cannot stay forever with both the Empire and the Shadowland, that just removes any credibility to their Great Clan status. I can understand some kind of transition but after a while, I just don't understand why their status should still exist if they keep it that way. It's like saying that the other Clans have stupid leaders, note that I'm not talking about the Emperor because an Emperor can be manipulated. But 8 Clan Leaders and none of them are able to see this? That just don't fit.

In short, the Spider Clan cannot be both the vilain of the Empire and a Great Clan of the Empire... Or they are their own enemy?

My personal take on Spider Clan is it never really existed in the first place. I played Clan War, and the story there ended with the Second Day of Thunder. Story over, I left the game, and went on to other games. I come back in Ivory, I am like what is this Spider Clan? Then I begin learning about them and my first thoughts were ooph, Rokugan's on version of ISIS. Needless to say, no they are not on my A list, and I would not play a Spider character or deck ever. That is just my perspective opinion.

Now as for how to implement them? I like the redeemer clan theorim. A clan of the fallen, but not forgotten. A chance for a samurai to fight against the tainted affliction, and find salvation, or glorious death in service to the Empire. I also agree that such a clan should be seperate entity apart from the Shadowlands. Now for bad guys, yes they exist in every clan, always have from the very beginning. One clan's hero maybe another clan's villian. (Matsu Agetoki I am looking right at you, you villianious cur.) Lady Matsu herself could be viewed as a villian by some. Just my two koku.

The Spider Clan existance is a rough topic, specially when it goes on the RPG side. In my opinion, I will say that the Spider Clan being the vilain of the Empire just don't fit at all. It's even worst if they keep their Great Clan status and clearly acts as the vilain, it's like taking the Empire as stupid people. That just don't fit. In my games, I take them as the "Redeemer Clan", a bit like MaxKilljoy said. It's not because they are tainted, that they cannot serve the Empire.

I would even say that Kanpeki's going for the throne isn't bad neither, if it's with the optic of: "He's the descendant of Hantei" and not with the : "I'm going to great THE Clan". That's just asking for the doom of the clan.

Now as how to implement them. I personally think they should no longer be with the Shadowland, that's my opinion. They cannot stay forever with both the Empire and the Shadowland, that just removes any credibility to their Great Clan status. I can understand some kind of transition but after a while, I just don't understand why their status should still exist if they keep it that way. It's like saying that the other Clans have stupid leaders, note that I'm not talking about the Emperor because an Emperor can be manipulated. But 8 Clan Leaders and none of them are able to see this? That just don't fit.

In short, the Spider Clan cannot be both the vilain of the Empire and a Great Clan of the Empire... Or they are their own enemy?

That's the biggest issue right there. By Rokugani (and in some ways by our modern, western) standards, the Spider are EVIL -- all-caps, everyone agrees, it's not a matter of personal or family or clan conflict, EVIL. Why would anyone in Rokugan have anything to do with them?

The Scorpion Clan fills the role of "the loyal opposition", testing the Empire for weakness and doing much of the dirty work that others refuse to. There's no need for the Spider to play "designated villain".

(Assuming a setting with a divinely-mandated imperial line, which forestalls a situation in which all the Clans are trying to get someone from their clan on the throne.)

By Rokugani standards, a whole host of people are (or were) evil.

My personal take on Spider Clan is it never really existed in the first place. I played Clan War, and the story there ended with the Second Day of Thunder. Story over, I left the game, and went on to other games. I come back in Ivory, I am like what is this Spider Clan? Then I begin learning about them and my first thoughts were ooph, Rokugan's on version of ISIS. Needless to say, no they are not on my A list, and I would not play a Spider character or deck ever. That is just my perspective opinion.

Now as for how to implement them? I like the redeemer clan theorim. A clan of the fallen, but not forgotten. A chance for a samurai to fight against the tainted affliction, and find salvation, or glorious death in service to the Empire. I also agree that such a clan should be seperate entity apart from the Shadowlands. Now for bad guys, yes they exist in every clan, always have from the very beginning. One clan's hero maybe another clan's villian. (Matsu Agetoki I am looking right at you, you villianious cur.) Lady Matsu herself could be viewed as a villian by some. Just my two koku.

Just look at the Obsidian possible clan directions for the Spider. Most of the possibles were already in the minds of AEG. Everything would have depended on the clan's player base to determine where the clan went, not fear.

By Rokugani standards, a whole host of people are (or were) evil.

Not "that guy is evil because our fathers' fathers were in a dispute over which side of the big rock our border was on near Who Cares Village".

Rather "that guy is EVIL because he's an unappologetic agent for the otherworldly power that seeks to tear down everything and bathe the world in blood, fire, and flith".

Rather "that guy is EVIL because he's an unappologetic agent for the otherworldly power that seeks to tear down everything and bathe the world in blood, fire, and flith".

So... like Shosuro, Mirumoto Hitomi, Hida "muh FEELZ" Kisada or Fu "I got it for the fourth time!" Leng? I must admit, most of the evil guys in the setting fill the "spineless *sshole" bill rather than the "agent of darkness" one, but I'm not exactly sure if the former is better than the latter. I mean, an obviously evil guy gives you a straightforward fight, but you can't put down people like Isawa "zeeerooooo reeeegreeeets" Tadaka without causing a big mess - if you even get the chance to deal with them.

Rather "that guy is EVIL because he's an unappologetic agent for the otherworldly power that seeks to tear down everything and bathe the world in blood, fire, and flith".

So... like Shosuro, Mirumoto Hitomi, Hida "muh FEELZ" Kisada or Fu "I got it for the fourth time!" Leng? I must admit, most of the evil guys in the setting fill the "spineless *sshole" bill rather than the "agent of darkness" one, but I'm not exactly sure if the former is better than the latter. I mean, an obviously evil guy gives you a straightforward fight, but you can't put down people like Isawa "zeeerooooo reeeegreeeets" Tadaka without causing a big mess - if you even get the chance to deal with them.

Any issues with those characters don't in any way mitigate the issues with attempts to make the Spider servants of literal hell AND a clan-in-good-standing of the Emerald Empire at the same time.

(And issues with Fu Leng REALLY don't mitigate issues with the Spider... )

Rather "that guy is EVIL because he's an unappologetic agent for the otherworldly power that seeks to tear down everything and bathe the world in blood, fire, and flith".

So... like Shosuro, Mirumoto Hitomi, Hida "muh FEELZ" Kisada or Fu "I got it for the fourth time!" Leng? I must admit, most of the evil guys in the setting fill the "spineless *sshole" bill rather than the "agent of darkness" one, but I'm not exactly sure if the former is better than the latter. I mean, an obviously evil guy gives you a straightforward fight, but you can't put down people like Isawa "zeeerooooo reeeegreeeets" Tadaka without causing a big mess - if you even get the chance to deal with them.

Any issues with those characters don't in any way mitigate the issues with attempts to make the Spider servants of literal hell AND a clan-in-good-standing of the Emerald Empire at the same time.

Well, they don't mitigate them, but they clearly show that Rokugan works in strange ways when it comes to determine heroes/villains. There are a lot of Karma Houdinis running around, and a Kharma Houdini Great Clan kinda fits into this picture (in a rather bizarre way TBH). It is like the quintessence of the moral quagmire.

I think a lot of this mess could be dealt with by separating the Spider "I like being in a Clan" Players from the Spider "I'm only playing this because the Hoard isn't an option" Players.

The former owners of L5R felt that the Hoard was not good for the game and tried to make them more human. And that group of players went from laughing at Dishonor and stomping it to getting pummeled by Dishonor. (dishonor is balanced, my.... )

If FFG separates these elements, implementing them each would be a lot easier.

Are any of you up for FFG to bring back the Hoard?

I think a lot of this mess could be dealt with by separating the Spider "I like being in a Clan" Players from the Spider "I'm only playing this because the Hoard isn't an option" Players.

The former owners of L5R felt that the Hoard was not good for the game and tried to make them more human. And that group of players went from laughing at Dishonor and stomping it to getting pummeled by Dishonor. (dishonor is balanced, my.... )

If FFG separates these elements, implementing them each would be a lot easier.

Are any of you up for FFG to bring back the Hoard?

That touches on the problems that arise from of trying to make the card game and the RPG mirror each other (really, the RPG mirror the card game) as much as possible.

That touches on the problems that arise from of trying to make the card game and the RPG mirror each other (really, the RPG mirror the card game) as much as possible.

QFT.

I think a lot of this mess could be dealt with by separating the Spider "I like being in a Clan" Players from the Spider "I'm only playing this because the Hoard isn't an option" Players.

The former owners of L5R felt that the Hoard was not good for the game and tried to make them more human. And that group of players went from laughing at Dishonor and stomping it to getting pummeled by Dishonor. (dishonor is balanced, my.... )

If FFG separates these elements, implementing them each would be a lot easier.

Are any of you up for FFG to bring back the Hoard?

I would imagine the Mantis players would object to losing their Hoard.

Horde.

I think a lot of this mess could be dealt with by separating the Spider "I like being in a Clan" Players from the Spider "I'm only playing this because the Hoard isn't an option" Players.

The former owners of L5R felt that the Hoard was not good for the game and tried to make them more human. And that group of players went from laughing at Dishonor and stomping it to getting pummeled by Dishonor. (dishonor is balanced, my.... )

If FFG separates these elements, implementing them each would be a lot easier.

Are any of you up for FFG to bring back the Hoard?

I would imagine the Mantis players would object to losing their Hoard.

Horde.

I leave it to the Crane to be more knowledgeable about the Shadowlands than some lowly Mantis.