It was brought to my attention the other day the impact on the meta TLT has had. Yes, Worlds was great this year, with a healthy amount of diversity in lists. I for one, am pretty pleased with the state of the game currently, and I look forward to the wrinkles Wave 8 will place into the game.

But, for those who play competitively, you may realize a trend is beginning to occur.

Think about this- What ships (or pilots if they are the only pilot seen of their ship) are on top tables? They seem to be, at least from my play experience (in no particular order)-

A-wing

Poe Dameron

Corran Horn

TLT K-wings

YTs

TLT Hwk-290s (in spots)

TLT Y-wings

IGs

Vader

EPT Tie Interceptors (largely Carnor and Sontir)

Tie Fighter or Z-95s (As swarms or fillers)

Palpmobile

Decimators

Tie Phantom (in spots)

__________________

Now that's a pretty healthy list, right?

Well... sort of. I say sort of because while it's a good list, the ships that are left off the list, all are missing something these ships have at least one of.

They are missing-

a) access to TLT

b) access to Autothrusters+ high level defensive bonus (PtL interceptors/Awings, regen Poe)*

c) access to a 3+ attack Primary Weapon turret/Outrider title, or 4+ attack primary weapon

d) access to a filler ship point cost (Tie Fighters/Z-95s)

e) access to a pilot or crew with a transcendent ability

*Star Vipers do not fulfill this requirement because they cannot turtle with evade+focus

My thoughts are this-

a) TLT is insanely efficient, and with a rng 2-3 band, they can deal out healthy damage while taking minimal back at range 3. Likely the most meta-forming upgrade of Wave 7.

b) Arc dodgers are powerful, but without autothrusters, they are nothing. With access to autothrusters, evade, and PTL, as well as a healthy number of green maneuver options, A-wings and Tie Interceptors can survive a volley of TLT shots to stick around in the meta. Poe, with his regen+autothrusters+ability, is able to do the same.

c) Primary Weapon turrets/Dash are still a thing. Not as dominant a thing, but they still are. They often can pound the TLT users as hard as they can pound them. Whisper and her Phantom Sisters are still seen here and there. They kind of fall under e as well, as I'm sure there Cloaking pays just as much to their success as their attack value does.

d) Tie Fighters and Z-95s just give so much value at 12 points. They block, they get forgotten, they steal away shots from more important targets... They just find ways into lists. Swarms are still great too, and they d well against TLT by having sheer numbers advantage.

e) Corran Horn and Vader. There is no other reason for them to be successful in the TLT meta other than they have insanely powerful pilot abilities. This makes me feel as though they will be viable in basically any meta.

__________________

So, what ships do not meet that criteria?

-E-wings not piloted by Corran Horn

-B-wings

-X-wings

-T-70 X-wings not piloted by Poe Dameron

-Scyk

-Star Viper

-YV-666

-K-fighter

-Firespray

-Tie Bomber

-Tie Punisher

-Tie/fo

-Lambda w/o Emperor (although a case could still be made for doom shuttle being top level competitive)

-Tie Advanced not piloted by Darth Vader

-Tie Defender

-Non-EPT Tie Interceptors

__________________

I may have missed something, but I'm pretty sure that's everything.

Please understand I am NOT saying the second list of ships are UNUSABLE. There is no need to comment and say "Well my buddy beat me with B-wings just yesterday!" or "Tie Advanced are amazing now! This is stupid and wrong!". I am only saying they seem to be suffering in the current meta due to their lack of access to any one of the listed points.

Any thoughts on this? Are my findings just something I contrived in my head after looking at what ships were in the competitive environment? Or are these actual requirements for a ship to withstand TLTs or the other meta lists?

Please discuss!

What it means to me is that people are either relying on repositioning to make up for their less than optimal planning, or turret weapons to counter the repositioning.

relative to Wave 5, this is a nearly infinite improvement

also, I've seen far more Blacksquad Crackshot than academies, they eat TLTs and high agility alike

the coming of Juke to supplement crackshot should add Imperial FOs and V1s (or at least the Inquisitor) to the competitive list by helping them overcome native 2 attack

Agreed there is improvement from Wave 5 for certain, but is this a troubling trend to anyone? I worry jousters are losing out a lot since the release of TLTs.

I'd say the meta is more diverse than that even. There's an element of preference at play and when you start narrowing down to top placing ships, that element is quickly enhanced. It's not so much to say for example, Bombers are not seeing play due to preference, but some of those ships certainly fall into that slot.

A good example is the Advanced. The non-Vader versions a still really solid, but they all compete a bit for spots with Interceptors. This is actually kind of a general Imperial problem, where the Defender, Phantom, Interceptor, and Advanced fit under similar archetypes and you're generally just going to see the best pilots of each because, hey, there's just not room for Vader, Soontir, Whisper and a bunch of other stuff (the Defender still needs help in general, just included it because its similar mechanically)

Scum hasn't been a super popular faction; whether its because they can't compete or because they're new or simply because they're not as iconic as the other two I can't say, but you don't see a huge percentage of Scum players in general. I think both Slave 1 and the 666 have potential, but the Aggressor is quite good and doesn't care for a diverse partner. Their small ships seem like they could use something though.

Mostly the game has just reached a point where you've got a dozen ships fighting to fill 3-4 slots in a list and some are getting crowded out, but given 1 ship can fill every slot, the fact even that's not happening too badly is impressive. It's more of a problem with pilots, but that's just because you're taking that same problem and expanding it out to over 50 pilots trying to fill those same 3-4 slots. I'm of the mindset that as long as a ship is viable, I don't really care how many pilots on it get crowded out by the best, but it would be nice if there was always a viable generic option for those who like to spam.

Agreed there is improvement from Wave 5 for certain, but is this a troubling trend to anyone? I worry jousters are losing out a lot since the release of TLTs.

We aren't seeing BBBBZ or people flying ties in straight lines as much anymore, but there's more to jousting than that- Heaver's worlds list was an (unconventional) jousting list, after all. Well, a jousting list with one tlt (TLT stressbot doesn't count).

Agreed there is improvement from Wave 5 for certain, but is this a troubling trend to anyone? I worry jousters are losing out a lot since the release of TLTs.

crackswarm says otherwise

Otherwise TLTs are great,but not because they're great against jousters (in fact, if you're even half competent, you can utterly rend TLTs asunder because they're just so blocky and slow outside the K-wings). The bigger reason is they make targeting aces a far lesser issue, especially big fat ass PWT aces

They make for very flexible, low maintenance ships that can engage anything from a B to Soontir with more or less the same reliability. B-wings have notably greater issues with the latter

Ties have the maneuverability to chase and block, but nothing to really overcome their native 2 dice bouncing off high agility + thrusters. That is, of course, until crackshot (and, soon, Juke)

If I had to put forth a numerical value to represent the current diversity, that number would be 17. The game is currently 17 diverse.

It was brought to my attention the other day the impact on the meta TLT has had. Yes, Worlds was great this year, with a healthy amount of diversity in lists. I for one, am pretty pleased with the state of the game currently, and I look forward to the wrinkles Wave 8 will place into the game.

But, for those who play competitively, you may realize a trend is beginning to occur.

Think about this- What ships (or pilots if they are the only pilot seen of their ship) are on top tables? They seem to be, at least from my play experience (in no particular order)-

A-wing

Poe Dameron

Corran Horn

TLT K-wings

YTs

TLT Hwk-290s (in spots)

TLT Y-wings

IGs

Vader

EPT Tie Interceptors (largely Carnor and Sontir)

Tie Fighter or Z-95s (As swarms or fillers)

Palpmobile

Decimators

Tie Phantom (in spots)

__________________

Now that's a pretty healthy list, right?

Well... sort of. I say sort of because while it's a good list, the ships that are left off the list, all are missing something these ships have at least one of.

They are missing-

a) access to TLT

b) access to Autothrusters+ high level defensive bonus (PtL interceptors/Awings, regen Poe)*

c) access to a 3+ attack Primary Weapon turret/Outrider title, or 4+ attack primary weapon

d) access to a filler ship point cost (Tie Fighters/Z-95s)

e) access to a pilot or crew with a transcendent ability

*Star Vipers do not fulfill this requirement because they cannot turtle with evade+focus

My thoughts are this-

a) TLT is insanely efficient, and with a rng 2-3 band, they can deal out healthy damage while taking minimal back at range 3. Likely the most meta-forming upgrade of Wave 7.

b) Arc dodgers are powerful, but without autothrusters, they are nothing. With access to autothrusters, evade, and PTL, as well as a healthy number of green maneuver options, A-wings and Tie Interceptors can survive a volley of TLT shots to stick around in the meta. Poe, with his regen+autothrusters+ability, is able to do the same.

c) Primary Weapon turrets/Dash are still a thing. Not as dominant a thing, but they still are. They often can pound the TLT users as hard as they can pound them. Whisper and her Phantom Sisters are still seen here and there. They kind of fall under e as well, as I'm sure there Cloaking pays just as much to their success as their attack value does.

d) Tie Fighters and Z-95s just give so much value at 12 points. They block, they get forgotten, they steal away shots from more important targets... They just find ways into lists. Swarms are still great too, and they d well against TLT by having sheer numbers advantage.

e) Corran Horn and Vader. There is no other reason for them to be successful in the TLT meta other than they have insanely powerful pilot abilities. This makes me feel as though they will be viable in basically any meta.

__________________

So, what ships do not meet that criteria?

-E-wings not piloted by Corran Horn

-B-wings

-X-wings

-T-70 X-wings not piloted by Poe Dameron

-Scyk

-Star Viper

-YV-666

-K-fighter

-Firespray

-Tie Bomber

-Tie Punisher

-Tie/fo

-Lambda w/o Emperor (although a case could still be made for doom shuttle being top level competitive)

-Tie Advanced not piloted by Darth Vader

-Tie Defender

-Non-EPT Tie Interceptors

__________________

I may have missed something, but I'm pretty sure that's everything.

Please understand I am NOT saying the second list of ships are UNUSABLE. There is no need to comment and say "Well my buddy beat me with B-wings just yesterday!" or "Tie Advanced are amazing now! This is stupid and wrong!". I am only saying they seem to be suffering in the current meta due to their lack of access to any one of the listed points.

Any thoughts on this? Are my findings just something I contrived in my head after looking at what ships were in the competitive environment? Or are these actual requirements for a ship to withstand TLTs or the other meta lists?

Please discuss!

Because those ships are 'jousters'. They move once a turn, perform one action a turn if they're not stressed, and attack once a turn if they have something in arc. They cannot compete unless you bring like, 8 of them.

Agreed there is improvement from Wave 5 for certain, but is this a troubling trend to anyone? I worry jousters are losing out a lot since the release of TLTs.

crackswarm says otherwise

Otherwise TLTs are great,but not because they're great against jousters (in fact, if you're even half competent, you can utterly rend TLTs asunder because they're just so blocky and slow outside the K-wings).

See and this is where we would disagree. Perhaps it is my piloting ability that is holding me back, but I feel like jousters just get wrecked by TLT heavy lists. The TLTs get off very consistent damage at range 3, and if the player knew the right time to turn away from the jousters, they just run while the jousters have to give chase while getting TLT'd to death. If the jousters don't chase, the TLTs can just swim through or around the rocks on the far side while trying to pinch in some range 3 shots, whittling them down enough that they aren't scared to turn in an joust them once they get in position anyways. And If the jousters really are faster, and can punch through the bubble quickly, then the TLT player just splits the formation the instant he sees that happening, and likely gets enough damage through that turn to take out a jouster or two anyways.

I love my B-wings, but I have never been able to do squat with them against TLT Ys.

I brought this up on the most recent NOVA podcast. TLT Y-wings are killing off "vanilla" generic ships. TLT at 6 points was unintentional mild power creep. The repercussions are significant.

I brought this up on the most recent NOVA podcast. TLT Y-wings are killing off "vanilla" generic ships. TLT at 6 points was unintentional mild power creep. The repercussions are significant.

Ya MJ don't you remember the other night we were discussing this on vassal too and I said I might post something like this to see what the community thinks? Well here it is haha. Guess I should've given you some credit for getting me thinking about it!

The TLT simply finished off what was in a bad spot already, eg chewie and Bs. If they priced it at 7 points the results would have been similar, if less pronounced.

Jouster days have essentially been numbered since ships were released that could reliably arc dodge. Interceptors in particular are reliably enough to never allow a shot unless outnumbered. The Phantom completely killed them off as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the TLT is a new phenomena in this regard.

One thing of note is that almost all these ships are paying for Torpedo slots that accomplish nothing. I suspect this is the most viable avenue of fixing them going forward.

Agreed there is improvement from Wave 5 for certain, but is this a troubling trend to anyone? I worry jousters are losing out a lot since the release of TLTs.

crackswarm says otherwise

Otherwise TLTs are great,but not because they're great against jousters (in fact, if you're even half competent, you can utterly rend TLTs asunder because they're just so blocky and slow outside the K-wings).

See and this is where we would disagree. Perhaps it is my piloting ability that is holding me back, but I feel like jousters just get wrecked by TLT heavy lists. The TLTs get off very consistent damage at range 3, and if the player knew the right time to turn away from the jousters, they just run while the jousters have to give chase while getting TLT'd to death. If the jousters don't chase, the TLTs can just swim through or around the rocks on the far side while trying to pinch in some range 3 shots, whittling them down enough that they aren't scared to turn in an joust them once they get in position anyways. And If the jousters really are faster, and can punch through the bubble quickly, then the TLT player just splits the formation the instant he sees that happening, and likely gets enough damage through that turn to take out a jouster or two anyways.

I love my B-wings, but I have never been able to do squat with them against TLT Ys.

havn't experienced this at all

then again, I've been flying nothing but Tie Fighters, Tie/FO Fighters, and Tie Advance for a long time now. The Y moves like a tarred brick compared to them and I've had precisely zero issues gunning them down either by concentrating fire at range or diving into lone doughnut holes

This experience has been replicated by another player who has been spamming nothing but Crackswarm and taking top spots over even 4 TLT Y-wing spam, but he lately out ground out of a mod win in a grueling game against a Heaver clone (which has a single TLT)

For Rebs, I just plop down 2 K-wings and a Y because they're freaking K-wings! (also with bombs, because bombs ignore dice)

the only jouster I've felt fell off is the scum Z-95. the **** thing is so worthless it pains me, as it's hard to run Xizor without all that fodder. Recently replaced them with a Bossk + Gunner Slaver and a Thug w/TLT + R4. With everyone rolling full modifiers, I have not been disappointed

I brought this up on the most recent NOVA podcast. TLT Y-wings are killing off "vanilla" generic ships. TLT at 6 points was unintentional mild power creep. The repercussions are significant.

Linksies? I only ever get to listen to the podcasts that are put on the forums...

Unfortunately since the introduction of TLT I think it does have a pretty significant effect on your decision making for your list building. It did replace some of the other point efficient ships like B-Wings, and they directly counter them as well, so that's a problem. I know we still see some YT-1300 floating around, but I think if you'd ask most, they would rather take 2 Y TLT's for that price... it's actually cheaper!

Jouster days have essentially been numbered since ships were released that could reliably arc dodge. Interceptors in particular are reliably enough to never allow a shot unless outnumbered. The Phantom completely killed them off as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the TLT is a new phenomena in this regard.

One thing of note is that almost all these ships are paying for Torpedo slots that accomplish nothing. I suspect this is the most viable avenue of fixing them going forward.

The existence of Chardaan Refit does not mean all upgrade slots cost points.

Also, I think an important factor is the tier 1.5, tier 2 stuff. Just because it doesn't show up at Worlds doesn't necessarily mean it is worthless. Especially with an increase in diversity and ship count.

Quick addendum to the above. This issue is, from a RPS standpoint, Bulky Turrets > Arc Dodges > Jousters, but Jousters don't hit any harder than Arc Dodgers, so they don't really hit hard enough to complete the cycle. To a degree, this is what the BTL Y-WIng is accomplishing. It's a Jouster that hits hard enough to get the job done. What's really needed is for the other jousters to have a similar way to deal large amounts of damage to bulky turrets. I think this is exactly what Torpedoes should be doing.

Jouster days have essentially been numbered since ships were released that could reliably arc dodge. Interceptors in particular are reliably enough to never allow a shot unless outnumbered. The Phantom completely killed them off as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the TLT is a new phenomena in this regard.

One thing of note is that almost all these ships are paying for Torpedo slots that accomplish nothing. I suspect this is the most viable avenue of fixing them going forward.

The existence of Chardaan Refit does not mean all upgrade slots cost points.

Also, I think an important factor is the tier 1.5, tier 2 stuff. Just because it doesn't show up at Worlds doesn't necessarily mean it is worthless. Especially with an increase in diversity and ship count.

All upgrade slots cost points. That's why Wampa has a pilot ability but no EPT and why Z95s lose Skill to get the Illicit slot. It's also why TIEs are so insanely efficient. Most upgrade cards that add an upgrade slot cost points and the ones that don't generally get away with it due to opportunity cost. The ones that don't are largely post release fixes. The only exception to all of the above I can think of is Slave-1 and honestly I'm not sure what the plan was there.

I definitely agree that it's the generics that are hurt the worst by TLT.

Low PS jousting ships have to rely on trading blows to come out ahead. TLT Y Wings trade blows better, and it is much easier for them to do it on their terms (turret arc vs front arc).

Ships with boost and the like can at least close the gap pretty easily, but that is best done on names pilots.

I brought this up on the most recent NOVA podcast. TLT Y-wings are killing off "vanilla" generic ships. TLT at 6 points was unintentional mild power creep. The repercussions are significant.

Linksies? I only ever get to listen to the podcasts that are put on the forums...

novasquadronradio.com

It's also in the linked thread

Any ship boosting into the doughnut hole is essentially arc dodging.

Any ship that can boost/roll/maneuver into the doughnut hole, they don't have to be named. They have to, at most, have a higher PS than 1.

You can do it with a Tempest Squadron after conceding the initiative; without issue, but it's a lot easier to do it with PS 3-4s that can reliably demolish a TLT before it can even shoot back

I definitely agree that it's the generics that are hurt the worst by TLT.

Low PS jousting ships have to rely on trading blows to come out ahead. TLT Y Wings trade blows better, and it is much easier for them to do it on their terms (turret arc vs front arc).

Ships with boost and the like can at least close the gap pretty easily, but that is best done on names pilots.

It really depends on the ship, though. Some are hurt more than others. I think it is more that TLT is sort of enabling a mix of TLTs and aces which is the problem.