I saw the Vets pack and knew that FFG just gave a blanket and some warm milk to the Imperial players.

I actually kinda feel for scum now.

They get some new toys sure but... they don't have the toys that Imp and reb have. No big toys.

+1 to all of the above.

Plus half-assed is just about the best description of IA heard so far.

I think I would prefer carefull, they are trying to inch closer towards the right solution because the flaws with the X-Wing aren't as bad as the A-Wings or TIE Advanceds were.

That is certainly true. The Advanced was probably the most useless ship out there and it deserved a fix.

Certain mathwingers said it was 4 points overcosted. And it got a 4 point free slot title, which totally brings it up to par, a very good solution!

But then the same mathwingers said that the X-Wing was about 2 points overcosted (in jousting value that is). And IA gives a "free hitpoint", but then again we don't have free astromechs, except the new unique "Chopper". So you have to buy something that you don't need for the most part for 1 point minimum to get a free hitpoint along with it. That's not as good as it seems because it's further overcosting the ship, and there is just no astromech that is good enough to consistently want it. And the ones that are are unique and you actually don't want to dump them!

So Integrated astromech is not worth it because the Astromech's are not worth it? Your patterns of logic are at odds. Integrated Astromech now gives every Mech the added ability of being discarded to save you a hull point. That means every single 1pt mech on an X-Wing is more than worth it. So ship is two points overcosted, spends one point to get on extra hull. Hull upgrade is three points......everything is fine.

Except that hull upgrade is prohibitively priced as a card to prevent spamming. Same as shield upgrade. It probably isn't worth 3.

Also HAVING to take a droid which doesn't offer much to the T-65 (the generic droids really don't) and having to increase the cost of the ship, just to become closer to the points efficiency the ship should have naked, doesn't strike me as 'fine'. If it was there wouldn't be this much discussion about it . The nekkid rookie X is about 1.5 to 2 points over costed by MJs math (if I remember). Adding a 1 point droid to this makes it about 3. More pricey droids widen that gap. IA struggles to make that up the more expensive the droid is. If there was a really worthwhile droid available for the T-65 I might agree with you, but there really isn't.

Also you have to count the opportunity cost of not being able to take a more effective upgrade. Porkins and R5D8 really wants another hull or experimental interface not IA, Luke and R2D2 really wants shield upgrade etc. Xs that can't take IA or are better without it suffer from the inbuilt lack of efficiency.

Except that hull upgrade is prohibitively priced as a card to prevent spamming. Same as shield upgrade. It probably isn't worth 3.

Except that in this case, instead of spending 4 points for a shield upgrade (which is what IA is more like), you spend at least 1 point for a droid (such as R2 or R5) that can help you a little until you need to spend it to block a hit or crit. It's worth the cost.

Except that hull upgrade is prohibitively priced as a card to prevent spamming. Same as shield upgrade. It probably isn't worth 3.

Except that in this case, instead of spending 4 points for a shield upgrade (which is what IA is more like), you spend at least 1 point for a droid (such as R2 or R5) that can help you a little until you need to spend it to block a hit or crit. It's worth the cost.

Exactly. We get a shield upgrade that gives us a little bit of extra green before it is used to keep us alive. Or perhaps R2-D6 with determination. Gives you a small chance to not need to discard your mech straight away. Phocian is unable to look at the upgrades as a collective and instead is still rating them on individual merit. All these upgrades are stronger together than taken by themselves.

I genuinely can not understand why people can't see the worth in this card on somebody like Biggs. It's going to rock on him.

Except that hull upgrade is prohibitively priced as a card to prevent spamming.

Nonsense. It's price at that value because that's what the developers think it's worth. They don't price upgrades based on how likely they are to be spammed.

Also HAVING to take a droid which doesn't offer much to the T-65

For 1 point, being able to both perform 1-2 speed manuvers and treat them as green, plus being able to eject it to discard a damage card, you have a fairly solid upgrade.

You are correct about the possibility of ejecting a very useful droid, but that droid will do you no good when that ship has been destroyed. So that really isn't a valid reason not to take IA. R2-D2 regen's zero shields when the X-Wing has taken 3 damage cards.

Worse case is using IA does nothing, because you've taken too much damage to matter, but at zero cost there's little down side. Best case is it keeps that ship around for another round or more. The only down side is the opportunity cost, but if you're going to put something in there already then IA doesn't factor into it.

Hull and shield are not worth 3/4 points respectively, I might be quoting mathwing in vain, but that's what sticks in my head from what I have read of MJs work. So if they are overpriced as upgrades, it's for a reason and to prevent auto include seems to be a logical conclusion, or else why overprice them?

Also R2 is pretty weak on a T-65 as apart from 1 move it has little way of generating stress. Sure an enemy might kindly donate you some via flèchette cannon or torpedo, but the stress meta isn't huge at the moment (YMMV by meta) and so those extra 4 green moves you gain are mostly wasted unless you plan to K turn all day or you know you will be getting stress. Aces with PTL are a possibility, but there are FAR better choices than R2 on say Wedge, or Luke, or Poe with PTL (or than PTL). And actually the 1 green moves are probably the most useful of the Xs dial as the X excels when you can slow crawl with targets to your front. Your 1 pt 'shield' therefore becomes a 2.5 point shield factoring in the T-65s point efficiency. Generic R5 is also not much use on a 3 hull ship, like an X. Both R2 and R5 are far more use on a Y wing, which has more hull and crappier dial to make use of them. Sure they both have limited utility, but only get better in conjunction with IA, which forces you to take a droid.

Yes the 1 point droids help you a little and together with IA they help the T-65. I have already said that. But the whole point of the IA upgrade is not to buff the ship, it's a buff to the largely useless collection of generic droids. Or else they could have given the X Wing a 1 point shield or free point of hull or a cost reduction like the new Defender title. It isn't a bad ship, it's a poor ship for the cost, which has always been one of its problems (that and comparison to the B wing, a much better ship for its price).

This free shield really ISNT when you look at the efficiency behind the X Wing. It becomes worse when you factor in the real lack of benefit the current 1 point Astros bring to the T-65. It becomes even worse when you look at 2 point generics, TA is a 2 point corner case generic, with limited utility on generic Xs and only marginally more use on one named pilot, Hobbie, who would probably prefer R3-A2. R7 is BFF with Tarn, unless your 4x rookie generics w/ R7s are fighting a 2 ship swarm where your odds of using it will be 50/50 each turn. Let's leave the unique droids out of this for now, they only have real synergy with the named pilots.

Opportunity cost always comes into it. Because if you can't take IA, you are running the T-65 in the basic inefficient state, which is why it needed buffing in he first place, or had you forgotten that bit? The T-65 without IA is more sucky than with it, even though with it, it's still not that great (Caveat: until a good generic droid appears that is).

So maybe phocion is actually evaluating these upgrades as a whole and seeing that being forced to pay more points for a ship which should have been better in the first place to improve it, and then only marginally at best, is a sucky deal. As soon as there is a decent (not marginal) generic droid that benefits the rookie T-65 I will sing IAs praises. Until then it has limited use and still does not bring the T-65 to the point of efficiency it needs to compete with ships in the same price bracket (MJ has already mathwinged that) Which is why the B wing is still the best generic ship the rebels have.

(Edit) and that breaks my heart because the T-65 is one of the icons of Star Wars and deserves better.

or else why overprice them?

Because FFG has a history of over pricing things.

but the stress meta isn't huge at the moment (YMMV by meta)

The stress meta is huge in the competitive circuit. It was all over the Worlds and Nationals. But even if the only thing it does, is allow you to eject a R2 to save a point of damage, that will be a point that is well spent.

That said, I don't believe IA is the fix the T65 needs, and per the dev's is not the last upgrade we'll see for it.

. Fair point about the pricing.

Agree with you there, I dont think IA is the fix needed. Though cancelling a hit is basically useful and occasionally really useful it depends very much, as you say on whether you survive to use it. Stress was definitely a feature of worlds as a component of builds, either dealing or dealing with. But that said vanilla R2 didnt make much of an appearance (nor did the T-65). Maybe (hopefully) that might change now IA is out and we might get something better to strap it to...

Except that hull upgrade is prohibitively priced as a card to prevent spamming.

Nonsense. It's price at that value because that's what the developers think it's worth. They don't price upgrades based on how likely they are to be spammed.

Also HAVING to take a droid which doesn't offer much to the T-65

For 1 point, being able to both perform 1-2 speed manuvers and treat them as green, plus being able to eject it to discard a damage card, you have a fairly solid upgrade.

You are correct about the possibility of ejecting a very useful droid, but that droid will do you no good when that ship has been destroyed. So that really isn't a valid reason not to take IA. R2-D2 regen's zero shields when the X-Wing has taken 3 damage cards.

Worse case is using IA does nothing, because you've taken too much damage to matter, but at zero cost there's little down side. Best case is it keeps that ship around for another round or more. The only down side is the opportunity cost, but if you're going to put something in there already then IA doesn't factor into it.

Yes, on aces at least you do give up your Modification slot, which is pretty big on them.

I think Phocion is totally correct in what he says. One Hull point is not worth 3 points in most of the retroengineered formulae i have seen.

At the best case you gain one HP for 1 point for R2 or R5. Now you gain one HP that is also immune to crits, and you have the Droid effect, which, let's face it is not all that great even on R2.

So, you have a Ship that is overpriced by 2 points. Then you have to pay one point to get the droid. So we are 3 points over still. Then we get an upgrade that is worth 1-2 points. So we are still 1-2 points overcosted. Which is nice and all, sadly its not enough.

IA makes X-Wings better, especially Generics. It brings them nearly on par with B-Wing jousting value. But then B-Wings have Barrel Roll and probably the more useful upgrade bar with access to Systems and Crew via title. Still worse than a B-Wing in jousting and less options. Not even to speak about TLT Y-Wings, the flavor of the month. No table ttime for you X-Wing!

On anything but Generics and maybe Biggs or Tarn, IA is strictly inferior to Engine upgrade. If you pay a lot for a pilot, he needs to be able to mitigate damage A LOT better than any T-65 could, or you need to be able to arc dodge and do it well! Which IA does not allow you to do. That's why i think that X-Wing Aces will become even a rarer sight.

(On another note, i think R2 units would be awesomesauce if the X-Wing Aces had cheaper access to Movement options like Engine Upgrade, in combination with PTL. Then the green maneuvers would actually count for something ad would extra actions. But as it is, for 7 points paid on this combo, with no access to Autothrusters, You don't need R2 on Aces...)

Ok sorry for wall of Text incoming, but here are some of the 22-26 point options you have for Rebel lists. Just so you can see what is possible to get on the table in that price range. For my part, except for Tarn Mison or very maybe Biggs in lists taylored towards him, i would not even consider the T-65 as an option between the others!

Blue Squadron Novice (24)
R2 Astromech (1)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Blue Squadron Novice (24)
Autothrusters (2)

Rookie Pilot (21)
R2 Astromech (1)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Rookie Pilot (21)
R2-D2 (4)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)
Fire-Control System (2)

Gold Squadron Pilot (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)

Gold Squadron Pilot (18)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
R3-A2 (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Jake Farrell (24)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Chardaan Refit (-2)
Autothrusters (2)

Tarn Mison (23)
R7 Astromech (2)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Biggs Darklighter (25)
R2 Astromech (1)
Integrated Astromech (0)

Total: 270

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

My Picks on this list would be the following in this order:

1. Gold Squadron Stresswing (because Heaver and meta...)

2. Blue Squadron B-Wing with FCS (because ridiculously precise, flexible, and durable for 24 points)

3. Jakes (PS 9 Autothrusters always in TLT Donuts... Yes please!)

4. Vanilla TLT Y-Wing (Bandwagoner meta pick...)

5. Blue Squadron Novice with AT (Autothrusters, 6HP naturally, Boost, Talon Roll)

6. Tarn Mison (He's nice and now more durable but if your enemy does the right thing and shoots him with more than one thing he still dies very fast)

So we are still 1-2 points overcosted. Which is nice and all, sadly its not enough.

I agree. IA effectively gives the X-Wing 2 points of upgrades for 1 point, so not enough to break even, but it is a positive step.

Myself if I'm running a T-65 and I have one point left, I'll always stick a R2 Astro on it. So in this case putting a IA on it as well is a bit of a no brainer, assuming I don't have something else I want in that slot.

But as I said, this isn't supposed to be the final fix for X-Wings, just another small step to making them more effective.

I quite like the idea of lots of little tweaks, each with some differing degree of benefit balanced against whatever negative it comes with too (cost, disposable, limited, etc.). Instead of making one All Powerful Over-Powered Upgrade^TM that becomes the only thing to take, it turns into a balancing act, or a major juggling act if you will, to custom fit the humble T-65 into your 100 points and tailor it to suit your squad. This is a game that starts out in the squad-building still, right?

So we are still 1-2 points overcosted. Which is nice and all, sadly its not enough.

I agree. IA effectively gives the X-Wing 2 points of upgrades for 1 point, so not enough to break even, but it is a positive step.

Myself if I'm running a T-65 and I have one point left, I'll always stick a R2 Astro on it. So in this case putting a IA on it as well is a bit of a no brainer, assuming I don't have something else I want in that slot.

But as I said, this isn't supposed to be the final fix for X-Wings, just another small step to making them more effective.

Man from today on i think our hope for that got a lot more realistic, that this because Imperial Aces pack II may be very well the precursor of a Rebel Aces pack II, where they will include X and E-Wing most probably, along with the real fix for the T-65!

I quite like the idea of lots of little tweaks, each with some differing degree of benefit balanced against whatever negative it comes with too (cost, disposable, limited, etc.). Instead of making one All Powerful Over-Powered Upgrade^TM that becomes the only thing to take, it turns into a balancing act, or a major juggling act if you will, to custom fit the humble T-65 into your 100 points and tailor it to suit your squad. This is a game that starts out in the squad-building still, right?

There are no-brainer upgrades, like for example Autothrusters on any ship that can take them except for TIE Punishers...

But that's largely meta-related since Turrets are such a common sight, Autothrusters are hardly ever wasted points, and even if you have no Turrets opposing you, you still fare better at Range 3.

On another note... Do you know Major Juggler from the forum? In other words: Pun intended??? :P