Ok then we were clearly misunderstanding each other.

That's very possible. I should apologize, it seems I lumped you in with the "This will make Dash a autowin" camp.

I know part of it is that after 3 or so years the whole 'the sky is falling' posts get really, really old.

I don't know if Kanan or Zep is overpowered, but both of them feel like training wheels for beginners. One removes the penalty of thinking a move ahead when stressed, the other removes the entire game mechanic of blocking for 1 point? Feels a bit wrong somehow.

Stresshog now required in all lists. Sorry Imps and scum.

You don't have to apologize to us, it's not like Epsilon Leader is a bad pick.

the other removes the entire game mechanic of blocking for 1 point?

It doesn't, the only thing Zeb lets you do is shoot something in your arc, that's touching you. You still have to skip your activation phase.

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

'He does nothing for red maneuvers' - Dash, his obvious partner, only has one! Granted, he has only a limited effect on B-wings, but on every other carrier, this is a minor quibble. Let me say it again: he makes a hwk dial viable for arc dodging. He ushers in the first ship with a 100% green dial - something that if spitballed on the forum before his release would have been laughed out as game breaking - and that ship is the K-WING!

'He doesn't negate obstacles' - a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing. And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance? Especially when his most obvious partner already has that ability?

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

In short, your objections amply demonstrate just how powerful he is; Kanan breaks a crucial element in the cost analysis of a list, but that's okay because ... he's a crew card?? We haven't even talked about his very powerful aoe effect.

1.) This doesn't even make sense. All he does is essentially turn whites into greens. That does nothing for Dash unless you plan to stress him alot

2.) hold up: how is he eliminating obstacles? last I checked, you still take all penalties from obstacles, no matter what color your maneuver is or if you can remove stress. Sure that means debris becomes less useful, but asteroids are still not letting you perform an action, giving you possible damage, and not letting you shoot if you land on one.

3.) That crew slot can have a lot of other useful crew in it instead.

As for arc-dodging Hawks: Again he isn't making the ship become for maneuverable, he's simply making it easier to get rid of stress. He's not suddenly giving the Hawk milllions of maneuvers, and the last I checked, Jan is really the only Rebel Hawk that stresses itself. As for being a carrier, the main ships that would benefit from him (A-wings), want to be out arc-dodging, and not near the carrier.

1. Yes, everyone plans on stressing Dash a lot, not sure where you've been.

2. We're still talking about Dash here, remember he ignores obstacles for movement and actions?

3. It just replaces Kyle, and since you have full access to your dial now, you will probably only need 1 post movement action, letting you focus for the same offensive power.

It's a busted card.

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

'He does nothing for red maneuvers' - Dash, his obvious partner, only has one! Granted, he has only a limited effect on B-wings, but on every other carrier, this is a minor quibble. Let me say it again: he makes a hwk dial viable for arc dodging. He ushers in the first ship with a 100% green dial - something that if spitballed on the forum before his release would have been laughed out as game breaking - and that ship is the K-WING!

'He doesn't negate obstacles' - a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing. And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance? Especially when his most obvious partner already has that ability?

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

In short, your objections amply demonstrate just how powerful he is; Kanan breaks a crucial element in the cost analysis of a list, but that's okay because ... he's a crew card?? We haven't even talked about his very powerful aoe effect.

1.) This doesn't even make sense. All he does is essentially turn whites into greens. That does nothing for Dash unless you plan to stress him alot

2.) hold up: how is he eliminating obstacles? last I checked, you still take all penalties from obstacles, no matter what color your maneuver is or if you can remove stress. Sure that means debris becomes less useful, but asteroids are still not letting you perform an action, giving you possible damage, and not letting you shoot if you land on one.

3.) That crew slot can have a lot of other useful crew in it instead.

As for arc-dodging Hawks: Again he isn't making the ship become for maneuverable, he's simply making it easier to get rid of stress. He's not suddenly giving the Hawk milllions of maneuvers, and the last I checked, Jan is really the only Rebel Hawk that stresses itself. As for being a carrier, the main ships that would benefit from him (A-wings), want to be out arc-dodging, and not near the carrier.

1. Yes, everyone plans on stressing Dash a lot, not sure where you've been.

2. We're still talking about Dash here, remember he ignores obstacles for movement and actions?

3. It just replaces Kyle, and since you have full access to your dial now, you will probably only need 1 post movement action, letting you focus for the same offensive power.

It's a busted card.

See Above (specifically VanorDM's and Tsiegetz' posts).

Also, you always have full access to all non-red maneuvers on the dial. It's some strange fear of no actions that leads to the thought of stress = only green maneuvers. And considering there are already pilots that can do the same (or similar) thing, it's hardly game breaking to see the latest iteration of 2 actions every turn.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I'm not saying Dash + Kanan is bad. In fact, it's a very good combo. It's far from broken however.

TLTs will still be his undoing - aces not so much, imo. It's going to be very very hard to stay in the doughnut of doom with the new Dash.

Of all the ships in the game, he offers the highest risk/reward for move prediction.

He just became the most unpredictable ship in the game.

He'll still be more predictable than Bossk with Stay on Target, Navigator, and Maneuvering Fins.

And he can't take Outlaw Tech and Intelligence Officer which makes the above amazing.

I'm not positive that a card which works with 1 current build and very likely only that build is busted. I mean for Pete's sake the raider came with a crew card that generated an entire flexible archetype and got less kerfuffle than this.

On an infinite board where you are fighting dash with 1 academy pilot, sure he's busted. On a real game board where the number of places a ship can go are finite and the pilot skill of the ship is 7 then he's perfectly fine. If you're playing generics you need to answer arc dodge aces already anyway, and if you have an ace with repositioning and ps 8+ you really just need to stick in the range 1 band. Take safe middle ground options then adjust into the hole after he moves. If you can't feasibly cover him, move slowly and turtle and you will weather his fire pretty safely.

Aces still just laugh since dash will now pick between good modifiers and a lot of movement. For the first, dodge into hole. For the second, get superior modification and survive.

I <3 this topic. There's barely any of the crew cards released from Wave 8, but already the game is broken and only one ship will be worth flying with only one combo of upgrade cards.

Again.

For what? The 17th time? I've lost count.

The Assault Missilpocalypse is hilarious in hindsight.

Aces still just laugh since dash will now pick between good modifiers and a lot of movement. For the first, dodge into hole. For the second, get superior modification and survive.

Untrue, pre-Kanan 58 point Dash would generally green - BR - boost (with a free focus) Now Dash has full access to his dial, so he will probably only need one post dial move, boost OR br, then he can still focus for the same offensive output.

We already have Lone Wolf Dash, which, depending on the number of times you got shot at each turn was pretty close to a free action on top of your basic action. That left the dial totally open as well, and was totally beatable.

Aces still just laugh since dash will now pick between good modifiers and a lot of movement. For the first, dodge into hole. For the second, get superior modification and survive.

Untrue, pre-Kanan 58 point Dash would generally green - BR - boost (with a free focus) Now Dash has full access to his dial, so he will probably only need one post dial move, boost OR br, then he can still focus for the same offensive output.

1) With access to his full dial, PTL Dash will be able to dodge arcs with only a barrel roll or boost. I think this will likely be the case vs. Jousters, but against any PS 8+ Arc dodgers? Not so much.

2) Given Kanan Dash will usually be spending one of his actions to focus, is barrel roll/boost+Any maneuver exept his k-turn better than his Green maneuvers+both? Again, questionable- While the latter is certainly easier to block, boost+barrel roll gives Dash a lot more options after his move.

While we have to wait and see, my gut reaction is this is going to be something of a metagame and personal taste choice, not a strict Upgrade.

Yeah, it is difficult to predict where the metagame will be after Wave 8. There is still a LOT we don't know.

This is more broken than the pre-nerf Phantom, at least the Phantom didn't have a turret for its 4 dice attack and isn't on a large base.

This is more broken than the pre-nerf Phantom, at least the Phantom didn't have a turret for its 4 dice attack and isn't on a large base.

It is still not as bad since it does not have the capability to entirely avoid blocks. That was the point that broke the Phantom in my opinion.

I am not at all scared to face this new Dash, he seems weaker than the old one against my playstyle. Even the old one never really was a problem, the thing that got me was Corran, but even he won't bother me much anymore with my new maxime of Tactician wherever possible. And don't give me the crap about me never being able to get range 2, because I know I can, regardless of wether you do.

at least the Phantom didn't have a turret for its 4 dice attack and isn't on a large base.

Regardless of whether or not the first two points are an issue (hint: they're not), having a large base is not: in fact, it's harder easier to block a large base and more difficult to dodge rocks with one.

Edit: typo

Can we all stop acting like PTL Dash is great and should be feared? What has it won? A few store championships? It didn't do anything of note in world's and gencon and I'm pretty sure wasn't that good during regionals.

Indeed I think he 'only' placed twice in the top 32, and we have TLTs to thank for that! They are Dash's hard counter, and the reason that his spot as top dog didn't last past the nationals.

But the question is going to be, what remains of aces and blocking, his other two weaknesses? This discusion is about whether having 16 (effectively) green maneuvers, including hard 1 2 and 3, will impact the effectiveness of aces and blockers.

The answer is of course they will. Blocking will now be much much harder, that much is clear. Doughnutting will be much harder too, probably. His original 4 greens were servicable, if a little predictable - he could either shed stress and leave himself in doughnut territory, or flee and go for the dodge. That choice has collapsed into 'green everything, with added Corran support'. Whether the cost, of losing one focus from his multi-actions, will be steep enough to balance this out, is open to question. Considering his movement range is so vastly increased, I doubt it very much. Others disagree.

We'll have to see, I suppose, but regardless, tlts will still mess his day up, and have him longing for Kyle. In that situation, we'd have a list with only one hard counter: problematic, from a game design point of view...

Can we all stop acting like PTL Dash is great and should be feared? What has it won? A few store championships? It didn't do anything of note in world's and gencon and I'm pretty sure wasn't that good during regionals.

Lone Wolf Dash won Gencon. PTL Dash was second in Australia and Spain. Several Dash builds placed highly at Worlds. Spanish Regionals was PTL Dash mirror for the finals. A couple of Predator or LW Dashes also won Regionals.

I think it's safe to say Dash is very strong, but he didn't dominate the 2015 meta.

How many big tournaments was palp plus aces legal for? It feels like quite the natural predator for dash and something to keep him in check even if Kanan somehow makes him a juggernaut.

Can we all stop acting like PTL Dash is great and should be feared? What has it won? A few store championships? It didn't do anything of note in world's and gencon and I'm pretty sure wasn't that good during regionals.

*checks*

Lone Wolf Dash won Gencon. PTL Dash was second in Australia and Spain. Several Dash builds placed highly at Worlds. Spanish Regionals was PTL Dash mirror for the finals. A couple of Predator or LW Dashes also won Regionals.

I think it's safe to say Dash is very strong, but he didn't dominate the 2015 meta.

I was just discussing this earlier in the thread... Apparently no one caught it. For some reason this community seems to think a ship has to place at the very top of worlds, 5 nationals, 20 regionals and every other store championship to be considered "that good".

It's blatantly broken.

No, no it isn't.

How can you say it is broken if you know next to nothing about the complete wave? How dare you be so arrogant to presume that the designers did not see what you spotted immediately. Go play with your generics and complain about the state of the game, but do it quietly, you bore me with your broken record posts, everything that ever beat you is broken.

It's blatantly broken.

No, no it isn't.

How can you say it is broken if you know next to nothing about the complete wave? How dare you be so arrogant to presume that the designers did not see what you spotted immediately. Go play with your generics and complain about the state of the game, but do it quietly, you bore me with your broken record posts, everything that ever beat you is broken.

Nah man ffg totally has 0 playtesters who ever tried dash with Kanan, the most obvious combo for the card... Duh!

(Sarcasm disclaimer)

I would have accepted this if he was 7-8 points, but 3?

Sigh...

I would have accepted this if he was 7-8 points, but 3?

Sigh...

8 points means you think this is as strong as Palpatine.

Kanan is the crew equivalent of wingman essentially and that card gets played basically 0 with the ability to be taken on way more ships in 3 factions. I must be missing something that makes him fairly costed at hlc/Palpatine point amounts.