I think the Empire has a few crew cards that trump Kanan. I personally would take Fleet Officer over Kanan any day. Two focus tokens for the cost of stress. Not Focus actions either... so you can even assign focus tokens to stressed ships or ships that already have a focus token!

The Emperor causes dice luck to be more forgiving once every round. He is a huge game changer.

And I haven't even mentioned other greats like Darth Vader, Rebel Captive, and Mara Jade yet. I'm also VERY excited about Agent Callus! For 2 points he is going to wreck some poor ship on the other side. I think we're going to find him in Phantoms... A LOT!

So... I don't see the sky falling anytime soon over some half trained Padawan. Kanan does not know the true power of the Dark Side!

I'm not sure how on earth people get so hysterical about one card months before it's released, with no knowledge of how the meta will have developed with the addition of other unspoiled cards in the same wave.

Sure, Kanan is a powerful card. But the only occasion where he gets close to 'gamebreaking' is on Super Dash, and all it does it give him double actions, so long as he isn't blocked or double stressed. And if you get into the Donut hole, it doesn't matter anyway.

So, all of the old techniques everyone's been using to beat Dash still work.

Well colour me outraged, this card is gamebreaking after all.

I suppose, although it is in a unique position to bring stress relief to whoever needs it in your squad, dropping mines while doing so.

Which is again a waste of 3 points and a crew slot.

How could 2 builds consisting of Dash in the Top 32 lists in the world negate my argument that he is one of the best available Pilots in the game?

Because if it was as you said one of the best builds in the game, there should of been 5-6 of them in the top 32, and at least 1 in the final 4. 2 out of 32 is a pretty small % especially compared to previous worlds.

Great post, thanks Tsieg. I agree with nearly all of what you're saying, especially the way in which the crew slot really determines the role you see a ship playing.

I remain, however, perplexed by the manner in which dial design is suddenly being marginalised in conversations surrounding Kanan - 'it's not the be all and end all', 'remember, it doesn't fix reds', etc. Well, i couldn't disagree more: a ship is hugely determined by its dial composition. Take the starviper, for example. Denied the role of ptl arcdodger by its lack of greens. It falls short by two, perhaps three stress-relieving maneuvers - that's the margin of error when it comes to this element of game design. Or the T-70: barely feasible ptl, but made viable by bb8. Unhinged had a huge impact upon the way you can play a y-wing. The hwk has infuriated players for years with its stiff dial, while being in most other ways a brilliant ship, Etc, etc.

This one card opens up any crew carrying rebel ship as not just a viable ptl'er but one with a dial that equals or exceeds other users in its stress-clearing option. Secondarily, it provides squad support to those who can't carry it, and rapid recovery from that other rebel beast, the stresshog. This isn't a single ship release we're talking about, it's the entire faction, including any new ships to come. It's a big deal, and its power is 'over' the level of most other cards in the game. Not game breaking at all, but over-powered.

I know, I know, never go full Chicken Little.

I'm not sure how on earth people get so hysterical about one card months before it's released, with no knowledge of how the meta will have developed with the addition of other unspoiled cards in the same wave.

Sure, Kanan is a powerful card. But the only occasion where he gets close to 'gamebreaking' is on Super Dash, and all it does it give him double actions, so long as he isn't blocked or double stressed. And if you get into the Donut hole, it doesn't matter anyway.

So, all of the old techniques everyone's been using to beat Dash still work.

Well colour me outraged, this card is gamebreaking after all.

Blocking him won't be anywhere near as easy anymore, but other than that you are right.

So, all of the old techniques everyone's been using to beat Dash still work.

In many ways work better, since Dash can't have 2 focus tokens if he has Kanan. Letting Dash remove stress with a white maneuver will no doubt be a good build, but it is at best a bit more powerful than the double focus Dash, and far, far from game breaking.

Kanan may only be 3 points but you need to consider the Opportunity cost of the Crew slot which is one of the most useful and limited slots in the game. I think I'd much rather face either YT with Kanan than one with Gunner or Kyle. I'd rather face a TLT HWK with him than Tactician or Recon Spec. I'm not sure about B-wings or the Attack Shuttle yet.

Kanan may only be 3 points but you need to consider the Opportunity cost of the Crew slot which is one of the most useful and limited slots in the game. I think I'd much rather face either YT with Kanan than one with Gunner or Kyle. I'd rather face a TLT HWK with him than Tactician or Recon Spec. I'm not sure about B-wings or the Attack Shuttle yet.

A Bwing with advanced sensors and gunner is still a bad day

So, all of the old techniques everyone's been using to beat Dash still work.

In many ways work better, since Dash can't have 2 focus tokens if he has Kanan. Letting Dash remove stress with a white maneuver will no doubt be a good build, but it is at best a bit more powerful than the double focus Dash, and far, far from game breaking.

You know, that's an interesting point- Kanan Dash is significantly worse against PWTs. Not that I want the Decimator+Falcon show back in full, of course, but it does mean if someone brings the classic Han or Chiraneau build, Dash is in for a rough time without the ability to stack focus tokens.

Green maneuvers achieve their worth through the following questions:

How likely is my ship to be stressed?

The ultimate answer is pretty unlikely, unless you've taken Push the Limit, or in the Rebel's case, R3-A2.

Push is the only one of these that can go on Kanan's ship, so lets examine its worth in more context.

How important are multiple actions?

Actions come in a mix of 3 flavors: Offense, Defense, and Mobility.

Offensive actions have diminishing returns: one will add an average of +25% damage per die, whereas the second only adds an average of +18.75% damage per die.

Defensive actions are improved when you already have good damage mitigation. A defensive Focus is almost useless when you have 1 agility, and Evade's a drop in the bucket. The rebels have the HWK and the YT-24 with 2 agility and crew, and the first is basically unplayable for them.

Mobility actions are always powerful if you have high Pilot Skill, as arc-dodging and shot-acquisition are more powerful defensive or offensive options than the specific actions. However, the only non-turret ship the Rebels currently control with a crew slot is the B-Wing, so this will purely be used for the arc-dodge. PTL takes out your slot for Veteran's Instinct, so you're already at a disadvantage.

Verdict: The ships that can take Kanan do not care about Push the Limit as much as, say, TIE Interceptors or X1s.

Question the Second: How important is dial-based mobility to my ship?

Dash Rendar, the option most touted for pairing with Kanan, doesn't particularly care about maneuvering. With the current SuperDash set-up, he can perform a green maneuver with a barrel-roll or boost, and still have TL and Focus (the latter coming from Kyle Katarn crew).

He has a turret, so he doesn't need to keep foes in arc.

He has two relevant mobility actions at 8 PS, so he knows quite a bit about the board-state before using an action to alter his landing options, which means his post-action landing options would have to be drastically more constrained than his dial to be remotely close to the same balance.

I would argue that a Y-Wing with Push, Boost, Barrel-Roll, and PS advantage would be roughly as mobile as a ship with none with the Aggressor dial. Kanan on the YT24 is overkill.

For that matter, also remember the different sizes of base. The slowest maneuvers of a large ship are roughly a 2-2.5 for a small (Forwards and Turns don't scale the same), but they are very similar on a 5 forward.

In other words, between a Small ship and a Large ship with identical dials, the Large's speeds don't matter as much as the Small's. The Large will often go entire games using only its 1 speed options, because it cannot turn any more tightly.

Conclusion: The fact that Kanan is a super-Nunb seems to be fairly irrelevant, as you can get a larger power-boost on the ships in question through other crew. His true power is likely to come through his ability to Jan Ors the fleet, basically turning his ship into an upgraded Captain Yorr.

Feels like OP doesn't fly Rebels much and is fleeing the sky-fall before looking up.

The fabled Chicken Little WASN'T right, was he?

(I don't wanna debate stuff that isn't on tables yet... so don't be surprised if I don't reply to any questions. Have a good day.)

Such a touchy subject.

I don't think Kanan breaks the game, at 3 points, he's fairly price. As pointed out many times in this thread, there is not a lot of nasty combo available, only one actually: Dash. And I'll be honest, I also have some reservation about what it actually bring to the game. But first of all, I don't think it breaks the game. But I also don't think it was needed.

We didn't see a lot of Dash in finals because, as mobile as he may be, he was predictable. 4 green maneuver is not a lot and easy to block. If you can't block him, you could with your higher PS ace still guess pretty failry where he was going and then move+boost+barrel roll accordingly to get into his bubble. Dash is deadly against low PS ship, but hard countered by high PS ship. His weakness is his predictability.

Enter Kanan, and you completly erase that part. With PtL, Engine Upgrade and access to every maneuver except the straight 5 (excluding k-turns) as a green maneuver, Dash is now the best arc-dodger in the game. He can now pull a hard 1, clear stress and barrel roll, almost staying in place. or he can do a 3 bank and boost, then barrel roll. He will now be very hard to pin down. What's even worst is that you can't even use obstacles to get an idea of where he is going, because he don't care about them. Going against him is now more a guessing game than anything: Will he do a hard 1 left, a hard 3 right, a straight 4? Sky is the limit.

The bad part is that he also has a turret, a 4 dice turret. So his goal is just to dodge line of sight, making sure that there is no attack against him, and shoot. He might lose the Focus from Kyle, but it doesn't mean that he will need to Barrel roll AND boost every round, so he'll still have modified shot from time to time. And even without mods, a 4 dice turret average 2 hit. Might get higher, might get lower. We now get into a dice game. Will he get lucky or not. Odds are that sometimes he will, and there will be nothing you can do.

It's not that I think he will dominate the game, but the image he brings. I see him as the ship for newbie and quite frankly, won't have a lot of respect for the guy bringing him to the table. You know this game about maneuvring, keeping a line of sight and the importance of action economy. Well, this ship doesn't really care about any of it, well less than every other ship.

-While every other ship have to maneuver around obstacles, Dash doesn't care and can move right through them;

-You know this thing about the need to keep your target in line, well Dash has a turret, so no need to care about that, as long as you stay far to benefit from range defense while your opponent won't gain a dice vs your secondary weapon;

-You know how actions are important to reposition or get a better shot, well you'll get to pick 2 per turn as long as you don't get block;

-You know when you're stressed how you become more predictable because you have fewer maneuver to choose from, well Dash now have access to every maneuver as if they were green.

This ship will definetly be very deadly in expert hands. Probably not broken, I'll wait and see, but I don't think my games against him will be my most enjoyable, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.

But the real question is: Think about a new player going against it, do you think it will give a good image about the game? Think about how powerless a new player might feel going against it. I just fear it might discourage some.

So, to sum. Sky: Still in place.

But he's then giving up the 2nd focus he'd get from Kyle.

Yeah, this seems to be my main feelings on it as well. Dash exchanges 3 possible actions in a turn for a more reliable 2. It's an interesting choice and I don't see one as being obviously superior over the other.

I just fear it might discourage some.

So we should avoid putting powerful combos into the game because when some newbie tries their first game they might get crushed by a vet?

I <3 this topic. There's barely any of the crew cards released from Wave 8, but already the game is broken and only one ship will be worth flying with only one combo of upgrade cards.

Again.

For what? The 17th time? I've lost count.

For what? The 17th time? I've lost count.

That's close. I think it's funny how it's once again Dash who will break the game... Consider how true that was the last time we saw these 'Dash will break the game' posts.

I wrote it especially for you, Slug,you old curmugeon. <3

I suppose, although it is in a unique position to bring stress relief to whoever needs it in your squad, dropping mines while doing so.

Which is again a waste of 3 points and a crew slot.

How could 2 builds consisting of Dash in the Top 32 lists in the world negate my argument that he is one of the best available Pilots in the game?

Because if it was as you said one of the best builds in the game, there should of been 5-6 of them in the top 32, and at least 1 in the final 4. 2 out of 32 is a pretty small % especially compared to previous worlds.

Top 32 Meta Breakdown

Listed by order of appearance.

(minimum wave for core fundamentals) [placements] description

• (wave 7) [1, 9, 30] Rebel Ace + TLTs
• (wave 7) [2, 11] Rebel Aces
• (wave 7) [3] BroBots (crack+stim)
• (wave 7) [4, 6, 17] Palpatine + 2 Aces
• (wave 7) [5, 18] 2+ TLTs + Control
• (wave 7) [7, 15, 21, 24, 32] 3+ TLTs
• (wave 5) [8, 12, 25] Dash/Ace
• (wave 5) [10] RAC/Whisper
• (wave 1) [13] TIE Swarm
• (wave 4) [14] Whisper + Miniswarm
• (wave 7) [16] Imperial Aces
• (wave 4) [19] Rebel Swarm
• (wave 6) [20, 22, 28, 29] BroBots (wave 6)
• (wave 7) [23] Rebel Swarm with 2 TLTs
• (wave 7) [26] TLTs + Turrets
• (wave 7) [27] Crackshot TIE Swarm
• (wave 7) [31] Scum Ace + TLTs

Ships with TLT by points: 30.19%

Ships with Autothrusters by points: 24.69%

Emphasis added.

If we are going by worlds results in the Top 32, Builds with Dash as a core were seen in 3 Top 32 lists. Only 4 other build archetypes had as many appearances. Only 2 of those (Brobots, 3+ TLT) saw more appearances.

You need to understand I am not saying Dash is the best pilot with the best build at the best cost in the game. But he is one of the best. Now when I say one of the best, there is no way for you to know whether I mean top 2, top 3, top 10, or top 100. In this case, based on this evidence, I would say he is a likely Top 10 pilot in the game in its current state, and Top 20 for sure. TLT Ys, Stressbot, Soontir, IG-88B, regen Poe and Corran, maybe even the Academy Tie I would place higher on the list of top pilots over him when considering all aspects of the game. But Dash is definitely up there.

Not sure I want to continue this argument even if someone has more to add to why Dash isn't a top level pilot, so this will be my last attempt to help anyone reading see why Dash is considered powerful. If anyone disagrees with this, I would argue the meta in our areas of the world are different enough that that is the real difference which has us not seeing eye to eye.

That's close. I think it's funny how it's once again Dash who will break the game... Consider how true that was the last time we saw these 'Dash will break the game' posts.

I mean, that's still a valid discussion, imo. Although less about him breaking the game and more about him getting to be a tedious opponent to keep on playing. There's something those 4 reliable dice heading your way, combined with his talent, that just makes a game feel a little un-fun after a while.

It's not as bad as the TIE Phantom, but it's not far off.

I would say he is a likely Top 10 pilot in the game in its current state, and Top 20 for sure.

I'd agree. No one is claiming that Dash isn't a good pilot, or Super Dash isn't a good list. We are however saying that Kanan won't push Super Dash into the realm of being game breaking.

I'd even say that while Kanan will offer Dash more options, I don't know that he'll be a much better choice then Kyle since he'll lose out on the double focus.

There's something those 4 reliable dice heading your way, combined with his talent, that just makes a game feel a little un-fun after a while.

Sure, and if you are playing against that list, that often... Then I'd ask the other guy to change things up. Of course other than a tournament I never play the same list more than twice in a row.

As far as it being un-fun... That's far too subjective to really discuss. As long as it's balanced however I think it's fine.

Tractor beam, mark my words

I would say he is a likely Top 10 pilot in the game in its current state, and Top 20 for sure.

I'd agree. No one is claiming that Dash isn't a good pilot, or Super Dash isn't a good list. We are however saying that Kanan won't push Super Dash into the realm of being game breaking.

I'd even say that while Kanan will offer Dash more options, I don't know that he'll be a much better choice then Kyle since he'll lose out on the double focus.

Ok then we were clearly misunderstanding each other. I am in the same boat. Especially since we haven't even seen him on the freakin table yet with Kanan! We shall wait and see.

And as has been stated, the things that beat him now (high PS, fast aces which can close in on that bubble fast and have autothrusters to protect them when they don't), should still be able to take on the Kanan version pretty handily.

TLTs will still be his undoing - aces not so much, imo. It's going to be very very hard to stay in the doughnut of doom with the new Dash.

Of all the ships in the game, he offers the highest risk/reward for move prediction.

He just became the most unpredictable ship in the game.