Daredevil is a white maneouver...

Please tell me this is joke. Pretty please tell me this is tongue-in-cheek...............

Go on then ace, you're clearly dying to... Enlighten the foolish.

Remember that he only works if you actually execute a white maneuver. You can't have him help a friend if you do a green. In the case of a Dash/Corran build, either you're doing one action with Dash to remove the stress from Corran, or you're removing the stress from Dash and leaving it on Corran. That's a limiting factor, especially on ships like the HWK that barely have any white maneuvers.

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

'He does nothing for red maneuvers' - Dash, his obvious partner, only has one! Granted, he has only a limited effect on B-wings, but on every other carrier, this is a minor quibble. Let me say it again: he makes a hwk dial viable for arc dodging. He ushers in the first ship with a 100% green dial - something that if spitballed on the forum before his release would have been laughed out as game breaking - and that ship is the K-WING!

'He doesn't negate obstacles' - a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing. And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance? Especially when his most obvious partner already has that ability?

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

In short, your objections amply demonstrate just how powerful he is; Kanan breaks a crucial element in the cost analysis of a list, but that's okay because ... he's a crew card?? We haven't even talked about his very powerful aoe effect.

1.) This doesn't even make sense. All he does is essentially turn whites into greens. That does nothing for Dash unless you plan to stress him alot

2.) hold up: how is he eliminating obstacles? last I checked, you still take all penalties from obstacles, no matter what color your maneuver is or if you can remove stress. Sure that means debris becomes less useful, but asteroids are still not letting you perform an action, giving you possible damage, and not letting you shoot if you land on one.

3.) That crew slot can have a lot of other useful crew in it instead.

As for arc-dodging Hawks: Again he isn't making the ship become for maneuverable, he's simply making it easier to get rid of stress. He's not suddenly giving the Hawk milllions of maneuvers, and the last I checked, Jan is really the only Rebel Hawk that stresses itself. As for being a carrier, the main ships that would benefit from him (A-wings), want to be out arc-dodging, and not near the carrier.

K

Daredevil is a white maneouver...

Except you can only use it if you're unstressed, and the stress token from Daredevil would be given to you after Kanan's ability triggers.

They activate at the same time so I'm not sure which activates first but there is NO crew capable ship with Boost, so unless you are willing to spend 4 more points on an engine upgrade the upgrade is rarely worth it

As for Kanan
the important factor is that he doesn't turn the white maneuvers green

he removes a stress from a white maneuver

Lando and R2-D2 gain nothing from him

neither does any green related ability

Kanan's best friend is push the limit but even that is severely limited by the dials
Hell he's not even the best choice on Hera because her abilities are targeted for green and red maneuvers (in fact Nien Numb may have a new best friend there...)

The sky isn't falling with Kanan, him and Ezra are probably the most powerful combination with PTL
Dash and Kyle are still Bffs

and honestly the only ship I really want to put Kanan on the most is a B-wing...

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

This is all assuming that it works like it would seem to. Should FFG make the stress removal happen after your chance for an action, or FAQ it and Jan Ors Crew and Super Wingman TIE/FO to not apply to the ship they're on I'd have significantly less issue with it.

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

1 every turn, precisely. With PTL.

It's called Super Dash, and he is pretty potent.

Dash Rendar (36)

Push the Limit (3)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Kyle Katarn (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Outrider (5)

Total: 58

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Now with Kanan available in place of Kyle Katarn, some believe he opens up Dash's dial so much so that he will break the game. See- Slayer, Paragoomba

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

The hyperbole is strong in this one...

and that ship is the K-WING!

Anyone who puts Kanan on a K-Wing to remove stress, has wasted 3 points and a crew upgrade.

a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing.

Exactly which crew does both? Also no crew eliminates obstacles, Dash (pilot) lets you ignore them in the action phase, Dash (crew) lets you ignore them in the combat phase. No one lets you do both.

Oh and he doesn't turn the dial green. There's other effects out there that consider the color of the maneuver.

And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance?

No it's not, not when there's other equally good options out there already.

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

So in other words you don't get why that's even a cost to consider. Which means your whole analysts is based on a flawed understanding of how the game is balanced.

If I buy a Ghost I would look forward to giving Jan Ors + 3x B-Wings a shot again:

Jan Ors + Kanan + TLT

Blue Squadron Pilot (x3)

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

1 every turn, precisely. With PTL.

So all it is doing for you is allowing you to perform 2 actions every turn. So game breaking.

Actually i think
Han, Kyle, Kanan is my favorite combo platter

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters.

If you think that Kanan is an autowin on Dash... Well there's no more need to debate that point then there is to debate if 1+1=3 or not.

Daredevil is a white maneouver...

Except you can only use it if you're unstressed, and the stress token from Daredevil would be given to you after Kanan's ability triggers.

Exactly that, nothing to see there, move along.

I think you guys may overvalue green manouvers. Like I said, as a fan of stressdealing lists I don't fear him, since I ususally stack 2+ tokens at once (with any faction that is, Tactician is my favourite crew EVERYWHERE). He does not enable new manouvers to stressed ships.

Compared to other 3 point upgrades he isn't that impressive and only helps you in combination with other things. Predator, Kyle, RecSpec, PTL, 3PO all help you surviving and killing opponents, Kanan does neither.

Kanan will be strong on PTL Dash, but that comes at a significant price. Triple action economy is a really big thing. It makes Soontir Fel viable compared to other Interceptor pilots, who are confined to some specific metas. Jax is really good when he prevents Soontir or other aces from focussing it up, but Soontir is just really good in general. Losing that triple economy makes it so that repositioning will hurt Dashs damage output and defense, which is not always going to be worth it.

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

1 every turn, precisely. With PTL.

So all it is doing for you is allowing you to perform 2 actions every turn. So game breaking.

I'm not saying it is, but if you don't think Super Dash is one of the best available builds in the game, you haven't faced it enough to understand why some people feel he is.

1.) This doesn't even make sense. All he does is essentially turn whites into greens. That does nothing for Dash unless you plan to stress him alot

2.) hold up: how is he eliminating obstacles? last I checked, you still take all penalties from obstacles, no matter what color your maneuver is or if you can remove stress. Sure that means debris becomes less useful, but asteroids are still not letting you perform an action, giving you possible damage, and not letting you shoot if you land on one.

3.) That crew slot can have a lot of other useful crew in it instead.

As for arc-dodging Hawks: Again he isn't making the ship become for maneuverable, he's simply making it easier to get rid of stress. He's not suddenly giving the Hawk milllions of maneuvers, and the last I checked, Jan is really the only Rebel Hawk that stresses itself. As for being a carrier, the main ships that would benefit from him (A-wings), want to be out arc-dodging, and not near the carrier.

1) The argument is largely in the context of the PTL Dash with Engine Upgrade. He'd be free to boost/barrel roll at will. However, this is balanced by the fact that a) he would not have a modifier unless he takes an action to focus/TL, and b) PTL Dash is locked at PS7, well below a lot of the aces in the current meta.

2) Again, as the argument largely covers PTL Dash specifically, he'd be able to ignore obstacles during the movement phase. He could do this anyway, but before he only had a fairly slow range of greens to choose from to clear the stress from PTL.

1.) This doesn't even make sense. All he does is essentially turn whites into greens. That does nothing for Dash unless you plan to stress him alot

2.) hold up: how is he eliminating obstacles? last I checked, you still take all penalties from obstacles, no matter what color your maneuver is or if you can remove stress. Sure that means debris becomes less useful, but asteroids are still not letting you perform an action, giving you possible damage, and not letting you shoot if you land on one.

3.) That crew slot can have a lot of other useful crew in it instead.

As for arc-dodging Hawks: Again he isn't making the ship become for maneuverable, he's simply making it easier to get rid of stress. He's not suddenly giving the Hawk milllions of maneuvers, and the last I checked, Jan is really the only Rebel Hawk that stresses itself. As for being a carrier, the main ships that would benefit from him (A-wings), want to be out arc-dodging, and not near the carrier.

1) The argument is largely in the context of the PTL Dash with Engine Upgrade. He'd be free to boost/barrel roll at will. However, this is balanced by the fact that a) he would not have a modifier unless he takes an action to focus/TL, and b) PTL Dash is locked at PS7, well below a lot of the aces in the current meta.

2) Again, as the argument largely covers PTL Dash specifically, he'd be able to ignore obstacles during the movement phase. He could do this anyway, but before he only had a fairly slow range of greens to choose from to clear the stress from PTL.

Still, in the end, this is situational on one ship, that is tough, but hardly overpowered. All it does is on some turns turn Dash into a pseudo-Vader.

but if you don't think Super Dash is one of the best available builds in the game

You mean like how there was what 2 of them in the top 32 in Worlds? Neither of which made it past the final 8.

So if Super Dash was really as good as you're trying to claim, it should've been seen a lot more.

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

1 every turn, precisely. With PTL.

So all it is doing for you is allowing you to perform 2 actions every turn. So game breaking.

Tycho flies around laughing at half the cost

Precisely.

He could do this anyway, but before he only had a fairly slow range of greens to choose from to clear the stress from PTL.

But he's then giving up the 2nd focus he'd get from Kyle.

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

'He does nothing for red maneuvers' - Dash, his obvious partner, only has one! Granted, he has only a limited effect on B-wings, but on every other carrier, this is a minor quibble. Let me say it again: he makes a hwk dial viable for arc dodging. He ushers in the first ship with a 100% green dial - something that if spitballed on the forum before his release would have been laughed out as game breaking - and that ship is the K-WING!

'He doesn't negate obstacles' - a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing. And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance? Especially when his most obvious partner already has that ability?

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

In short, your objections amply demonstrate just how powerful he is; Kanan breaks a crucial element in the cost analysis of a list, but that's okay because ... he's a crew card?? We haven't even talked about his very powerful aoe effect.

No worries! Allow me to go more in-depth then.

— Red manoeuvres tend to offer the most positional adjustment in a single turn; most K-Turns, Sloops, and Trolls are red specifically to be prohibitive. Multiple rounds of "turnaround" moves is a very potent strategy to outflank an opponent. Kanan doesn't inherently provide access to these manoeuvres. I think it was DracoPyrothean that pointed out his hilarious interaction with Adrenalin Rush though.

— Dials in general get a boost from Kanan but that doesn't turn the ship into an offensive force on its own. A HWK with a TLT doesn't gain a huge benefit from having access to a 2-Turn even while stressed; it's missing the much more potent Boost and/or Barrel Roll options. The K-Wing is in a similar boat. Will it be fantastic if that K-Wing gets stressed? Yes, but what happens next? You have the option to SLAM from a 2- or 3-speed manoeuvre, or you can potentially dodge around a ship and return fire, but that's not overwhelmingly special. Useful, but not unfairly so.

— Dash is a special case because his ability is already so potent, and the synergy between Dash, PtL, Kanan, and the YT-2400 dial is remarkable. "100% green" is a bit of an exaggeration though, and I feel that's a bit disingenuous. The effects are similar but the path getting there is different. You're still in trouble with a Damaged Engine, for example. Regardless, yes, Dash ignores obstacles when moving, and Kanan allows him to select any move aside from his K-Turn. Dash then has the capacity to Roll or Boost (EU optional for this build, I think, but I'd like to try both versions out) off or through any rock or debris. This has been the case for a while, and is much like first encountering Dash/Kyle and Dash isn't stressed yet. Very unpredictable. As ever, Dash is most limited by Pilot Skill and not-firing (due to Range or standing on obstacles).

— The Crew slot is easily the most flexible and important Upgrade slot in the game. I'm thankful new and interesting Pilot/Crew combinations keep coming out! I'm very excited for the Ghost especially because of the new options from the Rebels crew cards (while keeping an eye on the best bounty hunters in the business). So, Kanan occupies a Crew slot. This is significant because the Crew slot offers one of the easiest ways to make a Pilot more effective in combat, often through damage mitigation (R2-D2, C-3P0) or offensive consistency (Kyle Katarn, K4 Security Droid, Gunner, Luke, Bossk-ish). Kanan does not offer this inherently through his ability, although he enables it indirectly through access to manoeuvres and actions. So, choosing Kanan has an opportunity cost of not taking one of the other Crew choices that do directly lead to offence or defence.

At the end of it all I feel Kanan is appropriately costed for an appropriately potent ability. He can absolutely be made worthwhile, and can be utterly pointless at other times. I'm very excited to see some builds using him in the future. But he is a far cry from breaking the game.

Hi tsieg, I don't see any of your points as constraints, I'm afraid...

The hyperbole is strong in this one...

and that ship is the K-WING!

Anyone who puts Kanan on a K-Wing to remove stress, has wasted 3 points and a crew upgrade.

a crew member that turns your Dial 90% green And eliminates obstacles from the game results in a game that is straying away from x-wing.

Exactly which crew does both? Also no crew eliminates obstacles, Dash (pilot) lets you ignore them in the action phase, Dash (crew) lets you ignore them in the combat phase. No one lets you do both.Oh and he doesn't turn the dial green. There's other effects out there that consider the color of the maneuver.

And a 3pt card that only achieves half of this is not a concern in terms of balance?

No it's not, not when there's other equally good options out there already.

'He takes up a crew slot' - yes, sure, he's a crew card.

So in other words you don't get why that's even a cost to consider. Which means your whole analysts is based on a flawed understanding of how the game is balanced.

Respectfully, I don't think you read the post I was replying to. As a rule, I like to show respect to people, even if they don't do me the same courtesy.

I take your point concerning the K-wing, I suppose, although it is in a unique position to bring stress relief to whoever needs it in your squad, dropping mines while doing so.

but if you don't think Super Dash is one of the best available builds in the game

You mean like how there wasn't what 2 of them in the top 32 in Worlds? Neither of which made it past the final 8.

So if Super Dash was really as good as you're trying to claim, it should've been seen a lot more.

....huh? I'm confused if this is in jest or serious. How could 2 builds consisting of Dash in the Top 32 lists in the world negate my argument that he is one of the best available Pilots in the game? I feel it does the exact opposite.

And just fyi, there was a Super Dash in top 8, as well as another, separate build, in top 16. https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192577-2015-worlds-results/

So, ya, I think it's more than safe to say he is a pretty strong ship.

It's blatantly broken and people that can't see that are suffering from the same delusion that people who didn't think the Phantom was broken are suffering. "It's not an autowin, you just have to get good or fly hard counters."

Just like the Phantom, you'll autowin matches against lists that don't have hard counters. Every once and a while someone will play a hard counter and you'll lose and pretend that it's balanced.

Before the Phantom nerf I'd play the 86 double Phantom list and win against everything that wasn't a fat turret, it was ******* stupid. Dash with Kanan is going to do the same thing.

Again, how much stress are you really gonna accumulate with Dash?

1 every turn, precisely. With PTL.

So all it is doing for you is allowing you to perform 2 actions every turn. So game breaking.

I'm not saying it is, but if you don't think Super Dash is one of the best available builds in the game, you haven't faced it enough to understand why some people feel he is.

He sure is strong, but his counters are used frequently and are so hard that taking him into a tournament setting is a considerable risk. Palpshuttle is just laughing manicaly, TLT Y-Wings don't care about his mobility. He isn't as reactive as the old Phantom and easily blocked (although Kanan changes that), so generics still have a fighting chance. Exactly how bad Kanan is going to be? no way to tell for sure, yet. The matchup for pure generic lists is going to become quite a bit worse, but those lists are too limited to be highly competetive anyways, unless we are talking about a heavy control list. I don't think pure generic spam lists have to be viable, since they often can't even be considered listbuilding "I used all the cheapest generics that are not overcosted!" Great accomplishment. Synergies will always be more interesting than spamfests.