Can we all stop acting like PTL Dash is great and should be feared? What has it won? A few store championships? It didn't do anything of note in world's and gencon and I'm pretty sure wasn't that good during regionals.

*checks*

Lone Wolf Dash won Gencon. PTL Dash was second in Australia and Spain. Several Dash builds placed highly at Worlds. Spanish Regionals was PTL Dash mirror for the finals. A couple of Predator or LW Dashes also won Regionals.

I think it's safe to say Dash is very strong, but he didn't dominate the 2015 meta.

I was just discussing this earlier in the thread... Apparently no one caught it. For some reason this community seems to think a ship has to place at the very top of worlds, 5 nationals, 20 regionals and every other store championship to be considered "that good".

Right, but this version isn't going to be way different than Lone Wolf or Predator Dash. While PTL/Kanan Dash can do all white moves and then two moves, it's throwing 4 unmodified dice to do so. As weird as it is to say, 4 unmodified dice from a near 60 point ship is just not that scary. Ships at that point level need gunner or some re-rolls to really carry their weight. You've got to kill things to win, and it might take you half an hour to kill a TIE Fighter if you're throwing unmodified dice.

Dash with lone wolf and r2d2 is still probably his best build. Yeah dash is good. Him and his "superdash" build aren't top tier though and never were.

I am reminded of the time when Stay on Target was going to be a must have and would destroy all the game play and nuance in X-Wing....

I would have accepted this if he was 7-8 points, but 3?

Sigh...

8 points means you think this is as strong as Palpatine.

Kanan is the crew equivalent of wingman essentially and that card gets played basically 0 with the ability to be taken on way more ships in 3 factions. I must be missing something that makes him fairly costed at hlc/Palpatine point amounts.

Don't forget, every single rebel ship from now on will have to be designed with this card in mind.

So yes, I do think he is on par with Sheev, who is a lot more restricted in use. Not everyone enjoys Palpmobile you know. And since Scum and Imps don't have a stress-hog, Kanan-Dash will be even worse to meet on the table than LW Dash currently is.

Comparing Kanan to Wingman, I have no words other than, eh?

It's blatantly broken.

No, no it isn't.

How can you say it is broken if you know next to nothing about the complete wave? How dare you be so arrogant to presume that the designers did not see what you spotted immediately. Go play with your generics and complain about the state of the game, but do it quietly, you bore me with your broken record posts, everything that ever beat you is broken.

I think it's safe to say ParaGoomba Slayer is just bitter that jousters have really lost place in the current meta. Looking through his posts, it sounds like that is what he likes to fly, and the fact that they are pretty terrible against a large portion of the meta (Super Dash being a key component of that), seems to light his fire in a mean way.

I mean, I think we can all relate to him a little bit at least. I know I can. I remember the first time I went to a tournament, and sitting across from my Horton, Dutch and Wedge was 2 YT-1300s. It was awful and 0% fun. Luckily that sent me down the ladder to play other players with similar, non-competitive lists, and I stuck with the game and competitive scene. I learned from that experience, and now I don't bring a loaded Horton, Dutch and Wedge to a tournament. But for some, if you can't take the list you want to take, it almost feels like you might as well not play. And, in addition to that, it feels like everything that beats what you like to fly is ruining, or "breaking" the game.

The truth is we WANT everything to be competitive. But it just isn't going to happen. The issue isn't so much that Dash is "broken", it's that some of the things we like to fly, in Paragoomba Slayer's case I would guess generic B-wings or something similar, make him feel broken. But, the truth of the matter is, in the current meta, where Super Dash is an option, and so are TLTs, and high PS arc dodgers run rampant, generic B-wings are simply a bad choice. And in this case, it's either you join in with the meta, or suffer the consequences of running what doesn't fit. Does it limit you in some ways? Yes. But it also opens up opportunities as you look for ways to counter what is at the top. It gives a reason to list building beyond just flying your favorite ships or pilots. It becomes less about Star Wars, and more about X-wing.

Dash with lone wolf and r2d2 is still probably his best build. Yeah dash is good. Him and his "superdash" build aren't top tier though and never were.

What's your definition of top tier? Because anything that has the same build on the same pilot in two lists in top 16 of worlds would definitely be considered top tier for me personally.

I would have accepted this if he was 7-8 points, but 3?

Sigh...

8 points means you think this is as strong as Palpatine.

Kanan is the crew equivalent of wingman essentially and that card gets played basically 0 with the ability to be taken on way more ships in 3 factions. I must be missing something that makes him fairly costed at hlc/Palpatine point amounts.

He's also better than unhinged, nien numb and mkII combined - green hard turns are the best options, and Kanan on either YT gives them 6.

He's well above and beyond any other dial improving upgrade thus far. You could even say that his power exceeds, or is 'over' that of any comparable upgrade.

For me the absolute top tier is things that win win gencon and world's. Can consistently make if to to the top 4's and have an effect on the meta where you needed to bring something to counter it like old whisper.

No I can't relate to Goomba because I'm not a pessimist and defeatist. Yeah it sucks when your favorite pilots and and ships aren't that competitive. My favorite sw character is Kyle katarn and him winning gencon and world's is gonna be a long time coming. You either get over it and run different stuff or you keep running it and have fun. If losing isn't fun then either sell the game or change what you're flying or how you fly.

I just can't see this being a problem. OPPORTUNITY COST is a thing on all non-Dash lists.

THE Dash everyone is comparing this to is a three action arc dodging monster. This is a 2 action arc dodging monster that is harder to block.

When you sit down against a Dash player with Kyle, he's going to try and outfly you while out modifying you. When you sit down vs. a Kanan Dash that player is flat out saying "I will outfly you". In either case they were going to beat you unless you planned for it and executed your plan. He has a more open dial at the cost of dice modification.

At his very best he is an extra action. Extra actions are costed at 3pts. He is an extra action with restrictions in the highly competitive crew slot (and can sometimes action pass), and is unique. Might have been ok at 4pts, but is competitive at 3pts.

On one ship. Once a turn. Within Range 1-2.

He removes only one token, he doesn't guarantee an action, and does nothing if you still run into something. He is absolutely worth his cost and he's going to have some very potent effects but he is absolutely not overpowered. He's a very real extension of Rebel synergy, and will be prominent in the forthcoming evolution of Control as a game strategy.

Are we sure it boils down to an extra action? Doesn't sound right to me. For example...

You're playing Super Dash. Soontir is on your six, and you're holding a stress from last round. You can either choose to perform a very predictable array of green maneuvers, or try to bug out. Predictable gets you Soontir shadowing you, and boosting/br into your doughnut. Bugging out may well work, but leaves you both vulernable and much less likely to hit back. It is also dangerous, as you have no boost/br to extend your reposition.

Now, Uber Dash leaves you with 16 movement options, options that are mutually exclusive for your opponent in terms of being tracked by Soontir: he has to guess, and his range of options are huge. The chances are he will guess wrong - more so than if you bugged out stressed, and lost out on post-maneuver movements. In which case you will be sitting out of arc with at least a tl or focus. If he gets lucky (and it will be luck) you are in exactly the same position you would have been if you had bugged out with super dash, but with tokens in hand.

That doesn't sound like +1/-1 action to me.

^ how far behind you is soontir in that hypothetical?

Your call, Atomic, interested to hear your feedback

Nothing two ions won't fix.

Are we sure it boils down to an extra action? Doesn't sound right to me. For example...

You're playing Super Dash. Soontir is on your six, and you're holding a stress from last round. You can either choose to perform a very predictable array of green maneuvers, or try to bug out. Predictable gets you Soontir shadowing you, and boosting/br into your doughnut. Bugging out may well work, but leaves you both vulernable and much less likely to hit back. It is also dangerous, as you have no boost/br to extend your reposition.

Now, Uber Dash leaves you with 16 movement options, options that are mutually exclusive for your opponent in terms of being tracked by Soontir: he has to guess, and his range of options are huge. The chances are he will guess wrong - more so than if you bugged out stressed, and lost out on post-maneuver movements. In which case you will be sitting out of arc with at least a tl or focus. If he gets lucky (and it will be luck) you are in exactly the same position you would have been if you had bugged out with super dash, but with tokens in hand.

That doesn't sound like +1/-1 action to me.

That's against one particular pilot that relies heavily on movement control. Also, what if he guesses wrong? He Focus/Evades and doesn't care at all about your HLC. Time is on Soontir's side. Dash using all his actions to run isn't going to kill Soontir, with Kyle or with Kanan.

Are we sure it boils down to an extra action? Doesn't sound right to me. For example...

You're playing Super Dash. Soontir is on your six, and you're holding a stress from last round. You can either choose to perform a very predictable array of green maneuvers, or try to bug out. Predictable gets you Soontir shadowing you, and boosting/br into your doughnut. Bugging out may well work, but leaves you both vulernable and much less likely to hit back. It is also dangerous, as you have no boost/br to extend your reposition.

Now, Uber Dash leaves you with 16 movement options, options that are mutually exclusive for your opponent in terms of being tracked by Soontir: he has to guess, and his range of options are huge. The chances are he will guess wrong - more so than if you bugged out stressed, and lost out on post-maneuver movements. In which case you will be sitting out of arc with at least a tl or focus. If he gets lucky (and it will be luck) you are in exactly the same position you would have been if you had bugged out with super dash, but with tokens in hand.

That doesn't sound like +1/-1 action to me.

That's against one particular pilot that relies heavily on movement control. Also, what if he guesses wrong? He Focus/Evades and doesn't care at all about your HLC. Time is on Soontir's side. Dash using all his actions to run isn't going to kill Soontir, with Kyle or with Kanan.

Your call, Atomic, interested to hear your feedback

Well let's say soontir is behind right around range 2 range 1ish. I use that because if he was range 3 you'd just jet forward to get the shot. Anyway. Even if you kyle or Kanaan your best play would be to do a hard 1 then barrel back and take a target lock action. Fel is going straight, either 2,3, or 4 because he most likely pushed. Fel won't turn or bank because he doesn't want to risk not getting a shot. You grab the tl to set up next shot. Knowing that Fel is going straight and planning to re adjust you're hoping to block him with the 1 turn barrel roll. If he hits you great then hopefully you brought anti pursuit lasers and do a damage but either way Fel won't shoot and you'll have a decent tl focus shot next turn. This can be done with Kanaan or kyle katarn and isn't game breaking stuff. It's just good playing.

I think it's safe to say ParaGoomba Slayer is just bitter that jousters have really lost place in the current meta.

I was thinking about this earlier and wondering how in the world that would be a better state for the game. Jousters fly straight at each other, shoot, pass, turn around, and do it again. Without different playstyles like turrets and arc-dodgers (and bombs! etc), that would be an incredibly boring game.

In fairness I'd like to point out that you're saying the super op overlord build you've predicted has a good chance at breaking even with ships that cost half as much as it does. Color me minorly unconcerned.

Again, [Kanan] Dash boils down to he pulled his range 1 bubble away from you by more than br+boost so you focus + evade or he didn't and you get free shots. Either way seems pretty okay.

Are we sure it boils down to an extra action? Doesn't sound right to me. For example...

You're playing Super Dash. Soontir is on your six, and you're holding a stress from last round. You can either choose to perform a very predictable array of green maneuvers, or try to bug out. Predictable gets you Soontir shadowing you, and boosting/br into your doughnut. Bugging out may well work, but leaves you both vulernable and much less likely to hit back. It is also dangerous, as you have no boost/br to extend your reposition.

Now, Uber Dash leaves you with 16 movement options, options that are mutually exclusive for your opponent in terms of being tracked by Soontir: he has to guess, and his range of options are huge. The chances are he will guess wrong - more so than if you bugged out stressed, and lost out on post-maneuver movements. In which case you will be sitting out of arc with at least a tl or focus. If he gets lucky (and it will be luck) you are in exactly the same position you would have been if you had bugged out with super dash, but with tokens in hand.

That doesn't sound like +1/-1 action to me.

That's against one particular pilot that relies heavily on movement control. Also, what if he guesses wrong? He Focus/Evades and doesn't care at all about your HLC. Time is on Soontir's side. Dash using all his actions to run isn't going to kill Soontir, with Kyle or with Kanan.

Hi Bio, I chose soontir as worst-case scenario - vader corran etc do a lot worse in this situation, don't they?

They do worse (no Autothrusters), I don't know about a lot worse. They both have better damage output than Soontir(how much better depends on set up). So even if they can't hit the donut hole, they can still get guns on target. If ATC Vader has his TL up, he can slowly plug away at Dash, probably saving his Focus/Evade for defense. He probably doesn't win against a full health Dash, but he's about 60-70% of the points, so that's fair. Corran fares a little better because he can double-tap. You probably token up again to hand the HLC, and if the Focus is left-over, you use it on your double-tap. Maybe Corran doesn't even double-tap, though. Dash won't usually have tokens for defense, so the double-tap only matters if you're trying to go for the kill or you manage Range 1, which will occasionally happen. I think with the regeneration, Corran can still probably win this one. Like Soontir, time is on his side. He's probably close to 10 points less than Dash, so it's more reasonable that he can take Dash.

Look at it this way, also. You sometimes will fight against Turrets (maybe a lot of the times). Against a Decimator or 1300, that extra positioning power will put you at Range 3 more often (and then usually only against lower PS ships). Classic Super-Dash can get the extra Focus which is great for those fights where you just slug it out. I think against Turrets, Kanan-Dash is straight up worse.

Much as it might be broken... in terms of tourney points, with the MOV nerf, I think this only brings the annoying rebel turret ships back up to wave5 levels of bork. Annoying as hell, but you can still get some points.

One day I really want to play a game where all I do is take falcons or whatever, and literally randomly spin their dial. take 3 stress rocks. And if you get randomly flown off the board, just re-spin for another random move, or pick one thats more obvious.

WHEEEE

Literally. Spin these dials at random. Literally random.

If flown off the board, just re-roll.

Chewbacca (42)

Depends on timing. I guess the stress will be removed in the check stress phase. Also the ship will have to land within range 2 to work so if they move too far from Kanan or misjudged it they will likely still be stressed.

But yup once Wave 8 is released like always ther will need to be a new FAQ.

guys, isn't this guy even better on super han? ptl, kanan, EU, threeps, kyle or lando for the second slot. Build yourself a real nasty ps 9 arc dodger that doesn't care about stress and has two actions every turn.

guys, isn't this guy even better on super han? ptl, kanan, EU, threeps, kyle or lando for the second slot. Build yourself a real nasty ps 9 arc dodger that doesn't care about stress and has two actions every turn.

Of course, put three crew on the Falcon, why didn't I think of that?

I always shove C-3PO into the missile tube, myself.