But that has nothing to do with Shrine To Nurgle. That answers the Scout question, but the two are not at all related which is why they use different wording entirely.

jaycsin said:

Nitpicker in me kicked in, sorry. Runesmith packs 1HP, so would be dead

Ahaha, Dam, good point.

FOR JAYCSIN: I'm not a moderator and my voice is not important, but I think you're flaming a little bit.

You're going on to decintextualize our sentences and that's no fair.

We quit communicating more than ten posts ago. You're using different ways to justify your decision about StN and sometimes use un-appropriate conceptual metaphors, accusing me and dormouse to be "unprepared" about rules while, if we made an error, as I said, can be a "fast-typing-memory" error.

I don't say I have an ultimate understanding of the game...I just say that I know Lang's games and try to apply the style. READ AND PLAY. And that's what my eyes read.

Anyway, I'm still on my position about the issue. I quote any single dormouse's word and any single word I've already written about StN and other "trap-questions" you did.

Peace

some reasons I have a hard time understanding the scout rule

1) Nowhere in the rule book does it state whether damage can be applied to a burning region. People have given their opinions on this, but the rulebook doesnt. Perhaps someone can tell me what the designers say regarding this.

I know burning areas can be attacked, but can they be damaged? Is the region immune to damage and damage can not be applied to it? Does damage get applied but just disappear at the end of the combat? Does damage continue to build up on a burning area, but just not mean anything... yet? This is a crucial distinction in regards to scout and sadistic mutation, which, as stated, occur after damage is applied in combat.

2) The rulebook specifically states that the scout effect occurs "AFTER damage is applied"...

This rule can be interpretted 2 ways, and both are valid

a) damage must be applied for the scout effect to occur (going by the exact wording of the rulebook, suggesting that if damage is not actually applied, then the scout effect doesnt trigger. But can "0 damage" be applied and count as being applied? Inquiring minds want to know

b) the scout effect triggers during the apply damage stage. This means that no damage needs to be inflicted, but just that a scout needs to be declared as an attacker and survive combat to the apply damage phase.

(b) is not the actual WORDING of the rulebook, but may actually reflect the INTENTION of the designers. By strict READ THE RULES, DUMMY approach to Invasion, (a) is the correct interpretation. Any Nate and Eric ruling?

Perhaps someone can tell me what the designers say regarding this.

Not funny at all if it's what I think.

1) Nowhere in the rule book does it state whether damage can be applied to a burning region. People have given their opinions on this, but the rulebook doesnt.

I know burning areas can be attacked, but can they be damaged? Is the region immune to damage and damage can not be applied to it? Does damage get applied but just disappear at the end of the combat? Does damage continue to build up on a burning area, but just not mean anything... yet? This is a crucial distinction in regards to scout and sadistic mutation, which, as stated, occur after damage is applied in combat.

Same reason why I didn't give you a complete answer before...Nobody knows excactly what to do with a burning zone.

If I was a T.O, I'd rule it this way: you can't damage Burning Zones. The reason why I'd do that is not so logical, but functional: a Burning Zone doesn't have any impact on game (in exception of the fact that you're losing ) , so I'd say that it's not good allowin' players to damage an already burning zone, cause it would become a free "combo-trigger" in the future, if you understand what I mean

2) The rulebook specifically states that the scout effect occurs "AFTER damage is applied"...

This rule can be interpretted 2 ways, and both are valid

a) damage must be applied for the scout effect to occur (going by the exact wording of the rulebook, suggesting that if damage is not actually applied, then the scout effect doesnt trigger. But can "0 damage" be applied and count as being applied? Inquiring minds want to know

b) the scout effect triggers during the apply damage stage. This means that no damage needs to be inflicted, but just that a scout needs to be declared as an attacker and survive combat to the apply damage phase.

(b) is not the actual WORDING of the rulebook, but may actually reflect the INTENTION of the designers. By strict READ THE RULES, DUMMY approach to Invasion, (a) is the correct interpretation.

I'd say, as I said, A is the correct answer.

At first, you can Apply 0 damage. It doesn't say "after at least 1 damage is applied" or "after a partecipating unit is dealt damage" or something...

Partecipate to the Combat (attacker/defender) > assign/apply damage (even "0") > Scout triggers.

Then, if behind the word SURVIVE there is some possible speculation, I don't know...I'd AGREE with you on a "concept" point of view, but, again, I prefer to interprete the rules as near as possible to the text I read.

Believe me, I like these kind of discussions and interpretation "arguments" (that's the reason why I like these forums), but from a logical prespective, the easiest thing to do is apply what we see in the rules.

DB_Cooper said:

Sorry, it may be the lawyer in me coming out, but if you say it and especially type it, then be prepared to stand by it. It appears the debate has run its course and we can let the reader who come here for answers decide. No one is right until the designers step up and FAQ us. Saying "you" are wrong, doesn't make you right! Where is counts though is in the proof and rules. Good discussion

Out

Mateooo said:

some reasons I have a hard time understanding the scout rule

1) Nowhere in the rule book does it state whether damage can be applied to a burning region. People have given their opinions on this, but the rulebook doesnt. Perhaps someone can tell me what the designers say regarding this.

Nate said no. This is one of the questions that had popped up on the forums and I tried to get answers for all the ones I could remember while we were playing. Because we are friends I try to keep my desire to pick his brain clean limited to when we are actually playing one of the games or if he brings the subject up. Otherwise I stick to the random stuff that comes up in conversation.

Anyway my understanding of how this is said in the rules is that once a zone has been damaged equal to or more than the amount of HP it has, all damage counters are removed and burn token is placed there. The implication is that no more damage tokens can be placed, though the rules do not say so explicitly. This is one of the places where doing precisely what the rules say doesn't do make a definitive statement though there is a strong implication.

Mateooo said:

I think you are close with B, but not quite there with the second interpretation as what the rules are saying -

b) the scout effect triggers after the apply damage step. This means that no damage need to be inflicted, but just that a scout needs to be declared as a participant and survive combat past the apply damage phase.

Mateooo said:

(a) is also not the actual WORDING of the rulebook either, but may actually reflect the INTENTION of the designers. By strict READ THE RULES, DUMMY approach to W:I, neither (a) or (b) is easily discernable without reading the enitre section and keeping it in context. It is telling when the Scout keyword would trigger and then giving us requirements to it triggering. The when is after combat damage is applied, the requirement is it participating and surviving combat. If after combat damage is applied is the when, it seems to be referencing the Combat steps, logically there is no reason to divide the requirements in a sentence from each other, and grammatically it is incorrect to do so.

This is the ruling Nate gave me. You are, of course, welcome to play it how you want until it is put into the official FAQ.

um, my head hurts. I think there might be an answer buried in one of those posts, but who knows.

The wording of the scout rule is, by the rule book, "After combat damage is applied, the controller of any surviving participating units with the Scout keyword forces his opponent to discard one card at random from his hand for each of his participating units with Scout that survived the combat.

Please note, it does not say "after the apply damage phase"

Consider the difference between "damaged during combat" and "receives combat damage"

Clearly, Dormous is saying that Nate says a burning region can not be damaged, so attacking a burning should not trigger sadistic mutation.

yes or no answers please

Scout attacks a region that is burning. does the effect trigger?

Scout attacks a non burning region, but does no damage (power is reduced to zero, etc), does the scout effect trigger?

No opinions please, just the facts. What does Nate say.

thank you.

I already gave you the answer and explained it as it was explained to me. If the explanation was too much to grok then look for the two parts where I specifically say Nate's name. The answer is there.

Sorry, it may be the lawyer in me coming out, but if you say it and especially type it, then be prepared to stand by it. It appears the debate has run its course and we can let the reader who come here for answers decide. No one is right until the designers step up and FAQ us. Saying "you" are wrong, doesn't make you right! Where is counts though is in the proof and rules. Good discussion

I've never said You're wrong, I'm right. NEVER. I've just "read" what the cards says and ruled it. Nothing more.

Then, if you'd read my previous posts, you'd noticed that I try to be as communicative as I can, tryin' to explain my answers as dormouse did.

I'm not afraid to get the consequences of our discussions, if that's what you're sayin'. I'm here to discuss.