List building, when does it happen?

By Darkcloak, in X-Wing Rules Questions

So been playing a bit against this one guy who always builds his lists after he see's mine. Pretty hard to play against hard counters every day, but eventually that's another thing...

Anyways, I feel like this is a lot like list tailoring (it's a 40k thing, it sucks) and I'm wondering how I can stop it, or even if I can?

A quick read of the rules say that both players "assemble" their squad at the start of the match. Is this leave to wait until your opponent has made a list and then build a hard counter to it? I am the kind of guy who sits at home and writes up a few lists in a notebook and then goes to the store. Should I be hiding my toys like some kind of crazy Dungeon Master? Lol...

Or am I just cemented in archaic ways? Am I not getting it? Should I be sitting there with all my ships, assembling them into squads right before the match? Like... wtf? Back in the 40k days you sat down and wrote your list in secret and before the game you went and did a rundown of all the stuff you brought. It's not like that now or? I mean 40k these days you gotta list tailor so that it's not a one sided game, and both people engage in it. For example, I'm bringing a Wraithlord, you should bring something to counter that or... I mean I don't wanna sit down and do the same with X-Wing, quite the opposite! But I also don't want my opponent to do that to me so...

...

How does this "assemble squads" step go anyhow? How does it happen in a tournament?

Edited by Darkcloak

This is blatant poor sportsmanship. "Assembling" your squad means actually putting the components together.

At a tournament, everyone brings their fleet-lists pre-built, and submits their lists to the Tournament Organizer to ensure that no-one alters from one match to another, before any opponents are actually seen.

Don't show him your list until he is able to show you his. Don't see how anyone could argue that isn't fair. If he is watching you play a different opponent beforehand, bring multiple lists and swap. Ideally, identify the best way to counter your first lust, and then swap to a list designed to counter his counter.

Or just don't play the jerk.

Super-sneaky counter: prepare two lists, an A-list that's the bait, and a B-list that you actually intend to use. Present your A-list and when he's chosen his list, grab your B-list instead.

Although that's kinda underhanded and really just stooping to his level. I've had a player decide to prepare his list "on the spot" and it was really just tailored to mine. It can be really annoying.

If he can change his list up until play begins I don't see any reason you couldn't do the same. It certainly is poor sportsmanship to wait until after you've committed to a list before he even begins his list just to counter yours.

At a tournament all lists should be turned in before play begins but that doesn't mean a person should need to walk in the door with a list all prepared. Maybe they look around and see a lot of some specific build so they decide to play a counter to that on the spot but I wouldn't worry about that so much; maybe they're acting on good information but is it any different than the local group of friends who all know what everyone else it planning to play before they ever show up?

As a possible answer to those who want a "sideboard" for tournament a common suggestion is to just allow everyone to bring two lists to a tournament. Before play begins your opponent is handed your list choices while you are given his; you then secretly pick what list to play while he does the same and then you simultaneously reveal what you are actually going to play. Was there a hard counter to something you could have played? Did your opponent pick that counter? All kinds of little mind games that can go on there. If lists are rock, paper, scissors you'd better bring some combination of them but should expect the safe choice to be playing a mirror match (rock vs. rock) although some may win or lose their gambles. If lizard and Spock are added to the mix then choices for squadron pairs become far more dynamic.

I usually come prepared with my list, but I also tend to wait for my opponent to pull their stuff out before me to avoid this. I play with a guy that does this sometimes and I call foul and he stops - but thats casual play.

For tournaments, if you are nervous, just keep your upgrade cards face down until the tournament starts. People may still try to guess what you brought but... meh... people making last minute changes usually end up screwing themselves in the end.

For casual play, I often change lists through the evening, all of which are pre-calculated and ready on my phone. My gear is also super organised, so I can switch pretty quickly (2-3 minutes). If you feel as though this specific player is annoying you by tayloring his fleet to beat yours, then feel free to change. Casual play can, after all, simply be casual.

A side note: if you want to become serious about tournaments, then broadcasting your fleet in advance and letting other players adapt during casual nights is actually not a bad way to test out your build or learn and improve your build's weaknesses. As we get closer to the regionals, our group actually go through some hardcore testing in the form of like: "I think I've settled on a list, but now I need to test it against that guy's IGs and the other guy's Chiraneau, etc"

Not trying to say that what the other guy is doing is right; just saying that you can actually use it to your benefit :)

I ran into a similar problem when I started out. It started from only having 1 predator card between me any girlfriend. We would both want to use it but didn't want to change our list only for that reason. Since then I'll only play "blind". I have my list, I expect you to have yours. On top of that I prepare my list ahead of time like a tournament and don't want to wait 20 minutes for an opponent to build, find, and assemble a list.

My advice: build your list, have all pieces/cards ready to go, but keep them in your storage box until the opponent is ready to present their list. Just let them know no changing it after they give it to you.

This is how we've done league nights and how I do casual. Granted in casual I prefer to know your faction so we don't play the same one.

You should both present at the same time. Don't show him your cards unless he is ready to show his.

yeah i usually build mine "NIGHTS" beforehand and PRINT it out... even for casual matches..