Rules lawyers, start your engines. I want to be wrong here.

by my interpretation... Consider this scenario. You've got a ship equipped with Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams at extremely long range. We can just barely balance the range ruler between our two ships, but the range ruler does not touch either of our hull zones.

Totally fine.

Shooting is to cardboard.

Everything else is plastic base...

Done. Do I get an Oreo?

hehe....

• The following terms are used when discussing range and distance:

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band.

◊ Beyond: If no portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band or a band closer to the bottom of the ruler, that component is beyond the specified band.

◊ Within: If the entirety of a base or token is inside a specified band, that component is within that band.

◊ Minimum–Maximum: This abbreviation encompasses the minimum band, maximum band, and all bands in-between, such as “distance 1–4.”

You must be "at" Distance 1-5 for Phylom Q7s

Measuring Fire Arc and Range:

• When measuring firing arc, range, or distance, ignore squadrons’ activation sliders and ships’ shield dials and the plastic portions of the base that frame the shield dial.

Definition of "Ship"

Ship

A ship consists of a ship base, a ship model, a ship token, and a ship card. All components must match the ship’s type, and the name on the ship card must match the name on the ship token.

• Each ship has a ship icon in the lower-left corner of its ship card and in the front hull zone of its ship token. This icon indicates the ship’s type and is used to determine which title cards that ship can equip.

• Some plastic ship models extend beyond the plastic base. For this reason, the plastic ship model does not affect range measurement, firing arc, movement, overlapping, or any other game mechanic.

So we ignore the Ship Model, but not any part of the Base.

So, ergo, Range for Attacks are from Cardboard to Cardboard.

Is Phylom Q7 Tractor Beams an Attack? No, Not is not.

Therefore, you only ignore Activation Sliders, Ships Shield Dials, and Plastic Portions of the Base that Frame the Shield Dial.

This gives you a few mm range on top of Red Dice to Activate Tractors...

So, in conclusion it is possible for the above to happen. To be in Range for Tractor Beams, and yet, NOT in Range to actually shoot Turbolasers.

Only if you Show your Working. Like a Math Problem.

Let it begin! Witness Steve!

Yes, Mike McMann. Thank you.

DrunkTarkin- I Live. I Die. I Live Again.

If only the maelstrom that is our current private chat argument could somehow be directly broadcast into this thread.

My final stance:

Because it's already fiddly to see if the range ruler balances. I don't want to see if it also balances AND touches cardboard

So I'm taking a shot now to derail this before it even begins. Terrible form, I know.

I have no idea what the logic was behind excluding plastic bases from measurements, but coming from any number of other miniwargames where so much time is wasted arguing over 2mm, can we all just agree to measure everything to plastic? It's on the table. It's the game piece. Use the game piece.

If not, you're asking players to play a game that is so refined that the distance between the edge of a base and the start of cardboard matters. Anyone around to watch the games Dan and I played could have counted approximately 150 times a squadron or ship was placed then bumped. That's not counting for the times a squadron was misplaced because the mover was sloppy with the move. That's not counting the times ... you get the picture. Suggesting that the plastic base should be excluded from the cardboard, and then suggesting that some things should be measured card-to-card, others plastic-to-plastic, is just unnecessary and really out of character for a fantastic FFG game. You know, highly playable and enjoyable.

In.

These discussions we have, because we are so in love with Armada. I could see how this could be construed as negativity. Instead, it is getting to know our love's every minor intricacy, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Tarkin, have to agree - seems like an unintentional whif on FFG's part.

Yes technically those are the rules, but there's a certain amount of sportsmanship to be had in playing these games (for fun!) as well..

I'm sure they didn't intend to create this strange measurement issue.

Measuring Fire Arc and Range:

• When measuring firing arc, range, or distance, ignore squadrons’ activation sliders and ships’ shield dials and the plastic portions of the base that frame the shield dial.

The problem is you ignore the plastic part of the base which holds the shield dial, NOT the whole plastic base. If Drasnighta description of "at" includes the shield dial or plastic shield mount, then it's possible if you have to use the shield dia or plastic mount to be in range for the tractor beams.

Screw the cardboard.

I suspect the reason they went with cardboard to cardboard is that, either at the time that ruling was made OR to preserve future options about what kind of shapes they make for bases, they wanted a standardized measurement for the most important thing in the game (shooting) and not have either accidentally limited their options or have a bunch of lying weasels like DrunkTarkin¹ and WWPDSteven² using non-standard plastic bases to totally game things for an advantage like the big cheaters they are. Thus, we are left with this somewhat awkard ruling where, RAW, it is cardboard to cardboard vs. plastic to plastic depending on the action.

1,2. I don't actually think either of these guys are cheaters, but I will make them build a wall between their ships and mine if we ever play, and I will make them pay for the wall.

Screw the cardboard.

That sounds messy, and you and I both know that we'd be likely to get a nasty disease of some sort if we did that in the basement of the strat.

I always just play plastic to plastic, seems over complicated to mix and match ranges between card activations and shooting distance.

I would like to point out that what you think of the rule is, at best, a side-discussion to what was asked here, which is best summed up as what the rule is.

I'd like to think, with Quotes, we got that at least nailed down.

Correct?

Yup. Very clearly answered in post 2 with a more thorough description of the hows and whys in your post 3.

I believe the logic has to do with the firing arcs not continuing out on to the plastic. You can get a weird situation where where the line of fire sneaks past a firing arc line on the plastic base.

That being said I don't care if it's platic to plastic or card to card, it should only be one or the other. So yes, count me in for you revolution.

Yup, a classic distance vs range SWarmada argument.

Drasnighta is right as usual. We came to the same conclusion after our last game with Onca (well, Green Knight pointed us to it). It was about the Home One effect though this time.

And everyone is right to think it should be plastic to plastic all the time. But then people would say some shots are invalid because range measurement crosses the arc line continuation on the plastic and we'd get another argument going.

So I'm taking a shot now to derail this before it even begins. Terrible form, I know.

I have no idea what the logic was behind excluding plastic bases from measurements, but coming from any number of other miniwargames where so much time is wasted arguing over 2mm, can we all just agree to measure everything to plastic? It's on the table. It's the game piece. Use the game piece.

If not, you're asking players to play a game that is so refined that the distance between the edge of a base and the start of cardboard matters. Anyone around to watch the games Dan and I played could have counted approximately 150 times a squadron or ship was placed then bumped. That's not counting for the times a squadron was misplaced because the mover was sloppy with the move. That's not counting the times ... you get the picture. Suggesting that the plastic base should be excluded from the cardboard, and then suggesting that some things should be measured card-to-card, others plastic-to-plastic, is just unnecessary and really out of character for a fantastic FFG game. You know, highly playable and enjoyable.

I agree with this and will generally put close measurements under the "margin of error" category. I mean there are games that my opponent and I are so ham fisted that we are bumping/shifting everything.

Yup, a classic distance vs range SWarmada argument.

Drasnighta is right as usual. We came to the same conclusion after our last game with Onca (well, Green Knight pointed us to it). It was about the Home One effect though this time.

And everyone is right to think it should be plastic to plastic all the time. But then people would say some shots are invalid because range measurement crosses the arc line continuation on the plastic and we'd get another argument going.

What he said. Which is what I said earlier.

Anyway, the cardboard rule seems a bit silly to me. But it's there. And the side rails are 2 mm each, so not totally negligible (only nearly so).

Here's my question. When you say balance the cardboard. Remember that you have to go on the same side of the ruler. Not corner to corner.

So I'm taking a shot now to derail this before it even begins. Terrible form, I know.

I have no idea what the logic was behind excluding plastic bases from measurements, but coming from any number of other miniwargames where so much time is wasted arguing over 2mm, can we all just agree to measure everything to plastic? It's on the table. It's the game piece. Use the game piece.

If not, you're asking players to play a game that is so refined that the distance between the edge of a base and the start of cardboard matters. Anyone around to watch the games Dan and I played could have counted approximately 150 times a squadron or ship was placed then bumped. That's not counting for the times a squadron was misplaced because the mover was sloppy with the move. That's not counting the times ... you get the picture. Suggesting that the plastic base should be excluded from the cardboard, and then suggesting that some things should be measured card-to-card, others plastic-to-plastic, is just unnecessary and really out of character for a fantastic FFG game. You know, highly playable and enjoyable.

Right on !

Here's my question. When you say balance the cardboard. Remember that you have to go on the same side of the ruler. Not corner to corner.

hah don't get hung up on that! When range is close we often just see if we can balance the range ruler from base to base, but we know the girth of that stick doesn't matter

Screw the cardboard.

That sounds messy, and you and I both know that we'd be likely to get a nasty disease of some sort if we did that in the basement of the strat.

It's all in how you punch it

Wait. Is measuring an attack really cardboard to cardboard? Doesn't it include the defender's plastic base as well?