My group and I need some advice on setting up Archive of Arrizon encounter 2 from Heirs of Blood.

The brief summary of the setup - if heroes won the Enc 1 they can immediately start in the "Ettin's Lair" tile ( tile pic ), and also place Arrizon (Flesh Moulder) in empty space adjacent to a hero. Also during setup, 1 white, 1 green, 4 red and 4 blue objective tokens should be placed face down on the same tile. Ultimately, OL places Lady Eliza Farrow and 1 open group on the same tile. Objective of heroes is to use Arrizon to burn documents (tokens), however he can't burn any document adjacent to a monster. OL's objective is to kill Arrizon.

My question is if anyone can suggest a best way of distributing these pieces on the tile?

Say it's a 4 hero game + Arrizon + Lady Eliza + 2 shadow dragons open group + 10 objective tokens. That's a total of 28 squares, and this tile has 36 squares including pit squares.

First, OL places objective tokens on the tile. Can they be placed on a pit squares?

Then, depending on the tokens distribution, heroes can effectively block one shadow dragon from being placed by positioning like this

Second dragon might easily be blocked by tokens... So OL can't use his open group? Or he must choose different monster group? Cornering OL into changing his tactics like this doesn't seem fair...

I'm not even sure if working out a deal with OL regarding this setup can result in fair distribution for both sides. It's just annoying how I keep being held up by this contradictory setup rules in HoB campaign.

I don't have questbook for HoB. Are you sure that these tokens block spaces? And afaik you can place your monsters on adjaent tiles if there is no space on tile where they should be placed. Well, at least that's how it works for reinforcements.

Objective tokens don't block a space like a figure unless the quest rules says they do, and the shadow dragon can ignore pit spaces because it is a large monster. But still, placing two shadow dragons seems impossible. On the other hand, the OL would be wise to not use monsters of this size on small maps but should go for let's say the plague worms that can move unhindered by enemy figures and move them into a pit with the burrow ability.

I'll check the quest guide to see if there are any special instructions about the objective tokens- otherwise they are treated like empty spaces and do not block monsters. Even if they did, setup anf reinforcements can always be placed in the nearest available empty space unless explicitly forbidden in a quest- you cannot block a figure from being placed on the map.

EDIT: Confirmed. Nowhere in the special rules do objective tokens block movement or line of sight- therefore, spaces containing objective tokens are still empty- you can put figures in those spaces.

Well I gotta say although I was aware that tokens don't block spaces and nowhere in the encounter setup states otherwise, I assumed they should not be "stuck" under a big monster as setup rules say " Documents adjacent to 1 or more monsters cannot be burned " not " Documents adjacent or under 1 or more monsters cannot be burned ".

From past experience I gathered that the most literal interpretation of the rules is usually the correct one, and since quest specific rules override rulebook, I thought monsters can only be adjacent and not on top of the tokens...

Sure, OL can use smaller monsters but I just took it as an example, as there's always a chance our OL decides to use shadow dragons in particular

Your reading of the rules isn't exactly wrong- that is, documents would not be stuck. You could burn documents a monster is standing on if the documents are not adjacent to a monster; it is analogous to how you can search a search token a monster is standing on, so long as you are adjacent (or search a search token YOU are standing on.)

Your reading of the rules isn't exactly wrong- that is, documents would not be stuck. You could burn documents a monster is standing on if the documents are not adjacent to a monster; it is analogous to how you can search a search token a monster is standing on, so long as you are adjacent (or search a search token YOU are standing on.)

I would say that if a large monster stands on an objective token, it is also adjacent to that token.

Your reading of the rules isn't exactly wrong- that is, documents would not be stuck. You could burn documents a monster is standing on if the documents are not adjacent to a monster; it is analogous to how you can search a search token a monster is standing on, so long as you are adjacent (or search a search token YOU are standing on.)

I would say that if a large monster stands on an objective token, it is also adjacent to that token.

To me it's odd to say that a shadow dragon can be "0 spaces from a token," "1 space from a token," and "2 spaces from a token" all at the same time, but I think you're right- it just depends which space of the monster you count from. Similarly, your range to a particular space of a large monster is not necessarily your range to any space of that monster. Good point.

I check both Errata and unofficial FAQ and I found no answer to this question, which brings me to a standstill. I personally prefer not to view tokens under any monster as adjacent to monster, but simply because I play a hero in our game, I guess I would strongly oppose it as OL

There are very definitely cases where you can interact with something while adjacent, but cannot if you are in the same space- prayer of healing, revive a hero, set trap, etc. That part is clear.

What I was suggesting was specifically regarding large monsters. Lets say

E represents empty spaces, and O is an objective token.

EOE

EEE

Now, lets drop a barghest down on the map (B) on top of the token.

BBE

EEE

The barghest is in a space containing the token (top center.) However, he is ALSO in a space adjacent to the token (top left,) because he is a multispace monster. So, while it is awkward to say that the barghest is 1 space away AND 0 spaces away from the token, I think that ends up being the truth.

Perfect example. I'm just having a hard time believing that the designers left obvious contradictions such as this totally unclear.

There must be a more straightforward rule, eg. "adjacency is measured to the entire monster base" or something along those lines...

There must be a more straightforward rule, eg. "adjacency is measured to the entire monster base" or something along those lines...

That is a poor assumption. As someone who has spent a lot of time trying to fit Descent's rules into a consistent system, I am not surprised that there is not a clear statement about this in the rulebook. What I can say with certainty is the following regarding large monsters:

a) When targeting a monster for an attack, you may measure to any of the monster's spaces.

b) When measuring range to a monster for a non-attack ability (e.g., a monster within 3 spaces) you may measure to any of the monster's spaces.

c) When placing a monster (as for reinforcements) you must consider all spaces of the monster (placing an ettin on the entrance means placing THE WHOLE ettin on the entrance, not just one or two spaces of him.)

Point b is what makes me think that the barghest can measure range from any one of his spaces for the "pick up the token" ability.

I'm not surprised by it too, I've given up seeking answers in the rulebook and quest specific rules long time ago. Too bad you have to try and figure out the logic behind these absurdities, not use common sense. First, interacting with something that is under the figure (pulling a sheet of parchment under someones feet), second - saying that the figure is adjacent to and on top of it at the same time. I'd really like to hear the official explanation, but until then I'd rather treat the matter as search tokens.

As has come up in several other discussions, unreal scenarios (pulling parchment from under someone's feet) is 100% fine for me from a rules standpoint. For the most part, common sense can be used to determine the meanings of the rules, but some of those steps are just not spelled out.

What makes it difficult is when the same phrase means different things in different situations.

Now, if the definition of adjacent is simply "occupying a space 1 space away from the space of the token" then a shadow dragon can satisfy that requirement while also being on top of an objective token.

I'll ask FFG about this and post back when I hear.

So both cool

thanks

Q: A large (2x1) monster is occupying a space containing a search token, and an adjacent space. It is not moving. Is the large monster a) adjacent to the search token? b) 0 spaces away from the search token? c) both adjacent to the search token and 0 spaces away from it? Put differently, when counting range to the search token, must the large monster use the shortest path, or can it count from any of its spaces? Thanks!

A: The large monster is © both adjacent to the Search token and 0 spaces away from it. The monster can count from any of its spaces. If it counts from the adjacent space, it is adjacent. If it counts from the space containing the Search token, it is in the same space as the Search token.

Thanks for playing,

Kara Centell-Dunk

Game Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

Hm, I have similar question.Hero moves through big monster with aura (using skills like Thiefs Acrobatic) Should he count all spaces "inside" monster as adjacent and suffer damage for each such space entered?

I asked a followup to that question, and this might help:

Since the hero is not the monster (that is, "outside" the monster, just like the search token) then yes. I'd think Aura should work when heroes are moving through monsters.