Vader is a crappy admiral, but the boss of starfighter combat. Fancy that.

Vader, Rhymer, 2xTIE bomber.

plug+play imperial issue ship devastation that beats 2 X-wings or A-wings in combat without suffering a single loss every time.

If 2 A-wings engage vader he will more often than not die in the second round. He will take 2 damage per round + 1 from counter, while he does 3.25 damage in return, not enough to kill an A-wing squadron a turn. I'm not a fan, looks like someone who disliked Vader designed his cards.

the imperial commanders from my point of view:

Ozzel: only really efficient with Raiders, minimum bonus for ISDs and GSDs, no bonus for VSDs

Motti: useful especially for ISDs which upragades them to 14 hull points. not really effective for Raiders and GSDs

Screed: if you roll attacks with 4 or more dices its very likely to see some crits, so there is no 'need for Screed'.

Vader: can rescue your important attacks if they went too badly

Tarkin: very very powerful commander to give your fleet the flexibility it needs (very efficient on ISDs and VSDs)

for me, Vader and Tarkin are the 2 commanders imperials have to choose from. Sometimes Motti can be an advantage, but I think its up to Vader an Tarkin

Tarkin all the way. Yes, he's expensive, but couple him with weapons/defence liaisons and you pretty much get to ignore the order system. It's a huge advantage, and worth every penny.

Vader sucks? Nah. My initial Wave 2 kneejerk solution was a marriage made in heaven between Vader and Raider. Reasoning?: Close range ship with double useless Evade at close range screams 'USE ME FOR REROLLS VADER'. Ya. Maybe. If they could only live long enough to get a shot off.

I'm no Raider pro, but I'd like to be someday. I have four of the lil bastarrrrdos!

But Vader sucking? Maybe use a different listing approach. Of course he just may not be your thing. And that's cool too.

Yeah, there's nothing Vader can do a few paid upgrades can.

If my ISD gets 2 attack a turn and I get to attack for 4 or 5 turns then that is possibly 8 to 10 dice lost a game. It is also appreciably bad on smaller dice pools where you now need to draw out all the damage you can.

Sure for your black dice ships you have Ordnance Experts which is nice but you get to use it on only the Raider 1, VSD 1, and both GSD's. For the VSD it takes up the Gunnery Teams slot which is important. At the same time it ONLY works on black dice, which for the GSD 1's side arc is great but all else, no.

As for cost, if you have 4 ships with leading shots or Ordnance Experts, that is 16 points. Hmmmm guess how much Vader is after the base Commander cost you will pay. You guessed it, 16 points. If you choose anyone but Ozzel and you are actually paying more for the 4 upgrades than you would for Vader.

No Clontroper5, your lack of faith

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I do agree, Vader wouldn't be good for your ISD/Raider list. He'll be better once we go to the 1218 point format.

I agree that if you're running a lot of black dice ships (Gladiators and Raider-Is) you're often better off with a different admiral. Either Screed or Ozzel, depending on a preference for maneuverability or for crits/damage, and then slap Ordnance Experts onto whatever ships merit it.

From my limited playtesting, Vader seems best in a combined-arms fleet, particularly one that fields one or two ISDs. He has a lot of synergy with ISD-Is, as all of their dice appreciate the rerolls:

• Black and red dice: reroll blank dice for better damage
• Blue dice: reroll everything fishing for an Accuracy result (this is better than rerolling with Leading Shots, as you get to keep all your dice in the pool and can use your 2 blue dice as a resource rather than as fodder)

and you can happily feed Vader your Contain defense token. Combine with XI7s and you're ready to rock, hopefully locking down Brace and dumping tons of damage into the opposing ship.

I have a hard time imagining a fleet I'd want Vader in that didn't include at least one ISD-I, however.

Yeah, there's nothing Vader can do a few paid upgrades can.

So Leading Shots is just a waste of potential damage over the course of the game.

If my ISD gets 2 attack a turn and I get to attack for 4 or 5 turns then that is possibly 8 to 10 dice lost a game. It is also appreciably bad on smaller dice pools where you now need to draw out all the damage you can.

Sure for your black dice ships you have Ordnance Experts which is nice but you get to use it on only the Raider 1, VSD 1, and both GSD's. For the VSD it takes up the Gunnery Teams slot which is important. At the same time it ONLY works on black dice, which for the GSD 1's side arc is great but all else, no.

As for cost, if you have 4 ships with leading shots or Ordnance Experts, that is 16 points. Hmmmm guess how much Vader is after the base Commander cost you will pay. You guessed it, 16 points. If you choose anyone but Ozzel and you are actually paying more for the 4 upgrades than you would for Vader.

and why would you care about rerolling the raiders blue dice?

Also for the same cost has Vader I can run Motti and 3 Leading shots to make sure all of my ISD/VSD's can still reroll so yea Vader still Sucks

At the ends of the day VSd-1 are the only ships that really. Exclusively benefit from Vader, or could for 2 measly points more upgrade to the GOD OF VSD TARKIN!

Vader sucks? Nah. My initial Wave 2 kneejerk solution was a marriage made in heaven between Vader and Raider. Reasoning?: Close range ship with double useless Evade at close range screams 'USE ME FOR REROLLS VADER'. Ya. Maybe. If they could only live long enough to get a shot off.

I'm no Raider pro, but I'd like to be someday. I have four of the lil bastarrrrdos!

But Vader sucking? Maybe use a different listing approach. Of course he just may not be your thing. And that's cool too.

and why would you care about rerolling the raiders blue dice?

Because being able to go fishing for an Accuracy result to assist the black dice is useful.

Also for the same cost has Vader I can run Motti and 3 Leading shots to make sure all of my ISD/VSD's can still reroll so yea Vader still Sucks

Motti in a fleet with entirely ISDs/VSDs is probably superior to Vader, but Leading Shots still costs you a guaranteed icon dice as compared to Vader who costs you a maybe-useful maybe-not defense token. Contain in particular is an easy give-up.

At the ends of the day VSd-1 are the only ships that really. Exclusively benefit from Vader, or could for 2 measly points more upgrade to the GOD OF VSD TARKIN!

As I mentioned above, Vader really helps ISD-Is in particular. Moreso than Tarkin would. VSD-Is can be used pretty successfully with a number of different commanders (Vader, Tarkin, Motti, Screed w/ a ACMs or APTs).

Yeah, there's nothing Vader can do a few paid upgrades can.

So Leading Shots is just a waste of potential damage over the course of the game.

If my ISD gets 2 attack a turn and I get to attack for 4 or 5 turns then that is possibly 8 to 10 dice lost a game. It is also appreciably bad on smaller dice pools where you now need to draw out all the damage you can.

Sure for your black dice ships you have Ordnance Experts which is nice but you get to use it on only the Raider 1, VSD 1, and both GSD's. For the VSD it takes up the Gunnery Teams slot which is important. At the same time it ONLY works on black dice, which for the GSD 1's side arc is great but all else, no.

As for cost, if you have 4 ships with leading shots or Ordnance Experts, that is 16 points. Hmmmm guess how much Vader is after the base Commander cost you will pay. You guessed it, 16 points. If you choose anyone but Ozzel and you are actually paying more for the 4 upgrades than you would for Vader.

A few counterpoints-

1. Your Leading Shots example seems like exaggeration to make a point, or simply extremely optimistic theorycraft. Your ISD is shooting 8-10 times a game? 4-5 turns you have an opponent leaving two seperate ships at medium range of your ISD? More realistically, you are talking 1-3 dice per game. Except maybe against a Reikaan corvette list, I guess. Perhaps.

2. While, as usual, your assertions regarding ordinance teams are on point, when you get to he direct point comparison I feel like you are just throwing away opportunity cost. Yes, ozzel and my 4 ordinanc experts cost about the same as vader, but now I also have Ozzels ability, AND my re-rolls. Motti or Screed and its a negligible difference and you have their abilities.

Those points made, I'm being a bit nit-picky and I actually agree with the thrust of your argument as I interpret it,that being that Vader does bring value regardless of those re-roll upgrades being available. If only because it works on all dice and keeps those precious upgrade slots free.

the imperial commanders from my point of view:

Ozzel: only really efficient with Raiders, minimum bonus for ISDs and GSDs, no bonus for VSDs

Motti: useful especially for ISDs which upragades them to 14 hull points. not really effective for Raiders and GSDs

Screed: if you roll attacks with 4 or more dices its very likely to see some crits, so there is no 'need for Screed'.

Vader: can rescue your important attacks if they went too badly

Tarkin: very very powerful commander to give your fleet the flexibility it needs (very efficient on ISDs and VSDs)

for me, Vader and Tarkin are the 2 commanders imperials have to choose from. Sometimes Motti can be an advantage, but I think its up to Vader an Tarkin

You have broken from the true faith and have been branded a heretic and apostate.

Get thee hence from mine sight!

Yeah, there's nothing Vader can do a few paid upgrades can.

So Leading Shots is just a waste of potential damage over the course of the game.

If my ISD gets 2 attack a turn and I get to attack for 4 or 5 turns then that is possibly 8 to 10 dice lost a game. It is also appreciably bad on smaller dice pools where you now need to draw out all the damage you can.

Sure for your black dice ships you have Ordnance Experts which is nice but you get to use it on only the Raider 1, VSD 1, and both GSD's. For the VSD it takes up the Gunnery Teams slot which is important. At the same time it ONLY works on black dice, which for the GSD 1's side arc is great but all else, no.

As for cost, if you have 4 ships with leading shots or Ordnance Experts, that is 16 points. Hmmmm guess how much Vader is after the base Commander cost you will pay. You guessed it, 16 points. If you choose anyone but Ozzel and you are actually paying more for the 4 upgrades than you would for Vader.

A few counterpoints-

1. Your Leading Shots example seems like exaggeration to make a point, or simply extremely optimistic theorycraft. Your ISD is shooting 8-10 times a game? 4-5 turns you have an opponent leaving two seperate ships at medium range of your ISD? More realistically, you are talking 1-3 dice per game. Except maybe against a Reikaan corvette list, I guess. Perhaps.

2. While, as usual, your assertions regarding ordinance teams are on point, when you get to he direct point comparison I feel like you are just throwing away opportunity cost. Yes, ozzel and my 4 ordinanc experts cost about the same as vader, but now I also have Ozzels ability, AND my re-rolls. Motti or Screed and its a negligible difference and you have their abilities.

Those points made, I'm being a bit nit-picky and I actually agree with the thrust of your argument as I interpret it,that being that Vader does bring value regardless of those re-roll upgrades being available. If only because it works on all dice and keeps those precious upgrade slots free.

YAY NUMBERS!

1) So you are saying that you will only ever shoot 1-3 times with your ISD at medium range? I dont know about anyone else by I tend to jump right in with my speed 3 large monster then slow down. Now if it was only black dice I could understand the 1-3 reference but blue dice dice have a much better range.

2) You are right. You do have their ability AND the reroll but that costs you anywhere from 38 points to 40 points in a 4 ship list (maybe even 54 if you have Tarkin) Those are almost ships right there!

Now I don't know about anyone else but I have had times were my Red and Black dice have gotten 3-5 blanks in a single attack. No matter how one looks at it. . . that is VERY demoralizing. Having the capacity to take a risk and reward assessment and do a full reroll if needed is great!

As a player that is inexperienced with Armada and wants to see if I can make Vader work, could fewer upgrades and more ships be the way to go?

Ozzel: only really efficient with Raiders, minimum bonus for ISDs and GSDs, no bonus for VSDs

Clearly you haven't seen Ozzel at the helm of a Gladiator with Engine Techs, and really, being able to stop the VSD cold then jump to speed 2 could be useful, though I confess he doesn't like the victory.

Motti: useful especially for ISDs which upragades them to 14 hull points. not really effective for Raiders and GSDs

I have to disagree again. You need to look at the raw numbers of HP gained. He's not great for just a FEW Raiders or Gladiators, this is true, but if you're swarming with 6-7 Raiders, adding 1 HP to each of them gives you as much if not more benefit than the big lumps of health on a few ships.

In fact, I'd argue the Raider gets more out of that 1 HP than a big ship generally gets out of 3.

By the time an ISD is down to three health, it has no shields and all defense tokens have been discarded. Dealing three damage at that point is as easy as sneezing.

For a Raider, though... one health is often all they need to survive long enough to land that last shot.

Screed: if you roll attacks with 4 or more dices its very likely to see some crits, so there is no 'need for Screed'.

Screed isn't about need, so much as Screed is about 100% certainty.

With a lot of dice, I'm pretty sure my crits will land.

With Screed, I KNOW my crits will land (As long as Mothma isn't on the other side).

Vader: can rescue your important attacks if they went too badly

Double up with Ordnance Experts on Raiders and Glads and watch the hit/crits fly.

Tarkin: very very powerful commander to give your fleet the flexibility it needs (very efficient on ISDs and VSDs)

Tarkin is good. No question about it. He is our answer to Garm Bel.

It's important to note the difference between him and Garm though.

People assume Tarkin wants big command ships so he can layer up the tokens, and it's true he does well with the Imperial and Victory, but he also works well with the more nimble Gladiator if your action economy is sound.

Garm wants big ships hands down. He dumps all his tokens at once, and if you lack the command to take them they are wasted.

The only ship that is going to waste Tarkin Bux is the Raider with it's single command that it almost certainly a Navigation token already.

It's difficult to overstate how important command tokens can be over the course of a game, but for Tarkin to shine you need to be USING those tokens the whole game through. If I only have one or two ships that need tokens, and they're only going to need them in a pinch, I'd rather pay the six points for a pair of Veteran Captains.

I been thinking of the below list were Vader should work great with. They key is to use Vassel to practice maneuvering as this list should have something of a Death Star Arc were all the ship can shoot the same target and one round kill it. It has Big pools of dices and gunnery teams.

Fleet Name: DDDDDamage

Victory I-class Star Destroyer 105
Gunnery Team
Expanded Launchers
Dominator

Imperial II-class Star Destroyer 173
Darth Vader 36
Gunnery Team
Devastator

Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer 73
Assault Concussion Missiles 7
Demolisher 10

Dengar Punishing One 20
Aggressor Assault Fighter 16
TIE Advanced Squadron 12

Firstly:

Vader works for all dice at all ranges (leading shots or ordinance experts don't work at red dice range)

Leading shots works for all dice but requires you to be in blue dice range, AND spend a dice.

Ordnance experts only works for black dice.

As you should be able to see the effects of all three options are slightly different so you are comparing apples with

pears.

The next stage of the pro Vader argument is you aren't using those upgrade slots. In our club meta we have discussed intel officer, and if the wave 2 officers can kick him from being first choice. New Upgrade cards don't just have to be good they also need to have the potential of being better or cheaper.

I went back and forth with Dano and Jud this weekend about how good ozzell is. The flexibility he brings is great.

Fight the good fight Tirion!

I like Ozzel. He allows my speedy ships to get into a blocking position and then slow down. Seems great!

My problem with Vader is the cost vs. uncertain benefit. I KNOW I'll get what I'm after from Screed, Motti and Tarkin. I don't have a raider yet, so no comment on Ozzel.

Vader can be very helpful. He can rescue a crappy attack and make it adequately devastating to cause some serious pain in the Ackbar. Then again, the Vader re-rolls may come up just as useless as they were before. As an X-wing player, I've seen plenty of disappointing re-rolls from Han, so I don't have a lot of faith in re-rolls. Worse, Vader has to sacrifice defense (at least in part for the turn) in order to make his ability work. Just makes him seem a little costly, as a gamble.

Vader is a crappy admiral, but the boss of starfighter combat. Fancy that.

Vader, Rhymer, 2xTIE bomber.

plug+play imperial issue ship devastation that beats 2 X-wings or A-wings in combat without suffering a single loss every time.

Add in Dengar and flight controllers.

The real power in him really is the ability to double reroll. Stack reroll abilities together and the dice get very, very reliable and terrifying. It does cost tho.

I agree, this is where his greatest benefit is (Tvayumat in #41 raised the same point). Ordnance Experts on a GSD or Raider means you can reroll all your non hit-crits with impunity, then use Vader and a useless evade token to reroll any blanks you wound up with (if you're conservative), or reroll any remaining dice that aren't hit-crits for one more chance at crazy damage. On a GSD side arc with Rapid Reload and a CF dial, that's a great chance at 10-12 damage (which, even if braced, is still a world of hurt). Add a double-arc shot from something like Demolisher (Vader rerolls for the reds, Ordnance Experts + Vader for the blacks), and 16-20 damage in a single round (depending on whether you took Rapid Reload or Expanded Launchers or ACMs) is a real possibility:

• GSD I with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, Intel Officer, and Demolisher (90 points) activates last turn of round 3, into the rear arc of an MC-80, setting up a double-arc shot for the following turn. Shoot with Demolisher at the MC-80s rear arc from its forward arc, spending a CF dial for an additional black die (2 reds, 5 blacks).
  • Average base damage is 6.5 damage. Ardaedhel's done previous work charting probabilities from multiple rerolls here. Using that data, if you reroll Ordnance Experts to reroll all non hit-crits, the odds of a hit-crit go from 25% (1 of 5) to just under 43% (2 of 5), and second reroll from Vader increases those initial 25% odds to 57.8% (almost 3 of 5), meaning that on average, you will get six damage out of three of the black dice if you reroll all non hit-crits twice. Compare that with the original average of 6.5 damage you were expecting on seven unaltered dice, and that's already a significant increase in damage output. The remaining two black and two red dice each have a 75% chance of contributing some damage (or an accuracy, in the case of the red dice), so the goal with them would be to avoid generating blanks. That 75% chance of a helpful result increases to almost 94% if you reroll a blank red (in other words, the chance of a blank drops from 25% to 6%), and if you can reroll twice (Ordnance Experts + Vader, assuming you reroll conservatively to eliminate blanks), those original 75% odds increase to over 98% (or, less than 2% chance of a blank persisting through two rerolls). Assuming four more damage from those other four dice, that's a total of 10 damage from Demolisher's round-ending Salvo. Tap Intel Officer to force the discard of a Brace or full damage going through, and your target is in a world of hurt.
  • Repeat to start Round 4 (a broadside with a CF dial gives 5 black dice). Double-rerolls on five blacks gives each dice the same near-60% chance at hit-crit (3 of 5 hit-crits on average), for a realistic chance at 8-10 more damage. Intel Officer again to get a defense token discarded.
  • If the target limps on, you have that same forward arc shot (2 reds, 4 blacks, since there's no CF dial to spend). Two hit-crits plus four damage from the other four dice is another 8 damage, plus chances for accuracies or double-hits from the red dice.

The front arc of an ISD I at close range can do similar damage (though that requires taking Ordnance Experts instead of Gunnery Teams for maximum effect). An ISD I with Leading Shots and Ordnance Experts can actually reroll black dice three times and all other dice (other than the one blue die that is spent to trigger Leading Shots) twice, which means fishing for double-hits on the red dice is a possibility (18% chance increases to somewhere in the 40-44% range). Vader + Leading Shots on an ISD II can produce similar results at medium range, and doesn't sacrifice the Gunnery Team upgrade, which means double-hit fishing on 4-5 red dice, twice per round, plus lots of blues for accuracies...

and why would you care about rerolling the raiders blue dice?

Because being able to go fishing for an Accuracy result to assist the black dice is useful.

Also for the same cost has Vader I can run Motti and 3 Leading shots to make sure all of my ISD/VSD's can still reroll so yea Vader still Sucks

Motti in a fleet with entirely ISDs/VSDs is probably superior to Vader, but Leading Shots still costs you a guaranteed icon dice as compared to Vader who costs you a maybe-useful maybe-not defense token. Contain in particular is an easy give-up.

At the ends of the day VSd-1 are the only ships that really. Exclusively benefit from Vader, or could for 2 measly points more upgrade to the GOD OF VSD TARKIN!

As I mentioned above, Vader really helps ISD-Is in particular. Moreso than Tarkin would. VSD-Is can be used pretty successfully with a number of different commanders (Vader, Tarkin, Motti, Screed w/ a ACMs or APTs).

Agree with all points. The more dice you roll, the more chances Vader has to shine. ISDs are the natural platform (which is thematically appropriate), but a decked-out GSD (Expanded Launchers + Ordnance Experts) is no slouch with Vader behind it if you can get in close.

Bottom line (for me, at least): if I'm taking Vader as insurance against catastrophic rolls, there are cheaper options for doing that (and, in the case of Ordnance Experts, vastly superior options since Ordnance Experts doesn't have any opportunity cost other than filling a weapons team slot, and applies to all black dice including anti-squadron if you're running a Raider). If I want maximum, consistently higher damage output, I pair Vader with Leading Shots (on ISDs/VSD IIs) or Ordnance Experts (Raider I/GSDs/VSD Is?) and consider adding upgrades that boost my dice pools (Expanded Launchers/Rapid Reload/Slaved Turrets/Dominator/Devastator) or further modify dice (Needa + TRCs on an ISD II--extremely expensive and intriguing, no?), then watch as opposing ships melt before the Empire's superior firepower.

The real power in him really is the ability to double reroll. Stack reroll abilities together and the dice get very, very reliable and terrifying. It does cost tho.

I agree, this is where his greatest benefit is (Tvayumat in #41 raised the same point). Ordnance Experts on a GSD or Raider means you can reroll all your non hit-crits with impunity, then use Vader and a useless evade token to reroll any blanks you wound up with (if you're conservative), or reroll any remaining dice that aren't hit-crits for one more chance at crazy damage. On a GSD side arc with Rapid Reload and a CF dial, that's a great chance at 10-12 damage (which, even if braced, is still a world of hurt). Add a double-arc shot from something like Demolisher (Vader rerolls for the reds, Ordnance Experts + Vader for the blacks), and 16-20 damage in a single round (depending on whether you took Rapid Reload or Expanded Launchers or ACMs) is a real possibility:

• GSD I with Expanded Launchers, Ordnance Experts, Intel Officer, and Demolisher (90 points) activates last turn of round 3, into the rear arc of an MC-80, setting up a double-arc shot for the following turn. Shoot with Demolisher at the MC-80s rear arc from its forward arc, spending a CF dial for an additional black die (2 reds, 5 blacks).

• Average base damage is 6.5 damage. Ardaedhel's done previous work charting probabilities from multiple rerolls here. Using that data, if you reroll Ordnance Experts to reroll all non hit-crits, the odds of a hit-crit go from 25% (1 of 5) to just under 43% (2 of 5), and second reroll from Vader increases those initial 25% odds to 57.8% (almost 3 of 5), meaning that on average, you will get six damage out of three of the black dice if you reroll all non hit-crits twice. Compare that with the original average of 6.5 damage you were expecting on seven unaltered dice, and that's already a significant increase in damage output. The remaining two black and two red dice each have a 75% chance of contributing some damage (or an accuracy, in the case of the red dice), so the goal with them would be to avoid generating blanks. That 75% chance of a helpful result increases to almost 94% if you reroll a blank red (in other words, the chance of a blank drops from 25% to 6%), and if you can reroll twice (Ordnance Experts + Vader, assuming you reroll conservatively to eliminate blanks), those original 75% odds increase to over 98% (or, less than 2% chance of a blank persisting through two rerolls). Assuming four more damage from those other four dice, that's a total of 10 damage from Demolisher's round-ending Salvo. Tap Intel Officer to force the discard of a Brace or full damage going through, and your target is in a world of hurt.
• Repeat to start Round 4 (a broadside with a CF dial gives 5 black dice). Double-rerolls on five blacks gives each dice the same near-60% chance at hit-crit (3 of 5 hit-crits on average), for a realistic chance at 8-10 more damage. Intel Officer again to get a defense token discarded.
• If the target limps on, you have that same forward arc shot (2 reds, 4 blacks, since there's no CF dial to spend). Two hit-crits plus four damage from the other four dice is another 8 damage, plus chances for accuracies or double-hits from the red dice.

The front arc of an ISD I at close range can do similar damage (though that requires taking Ordnance Experts instead of Gunnery Teams for maximum effect). An ISD I with Leading Shots and Ordnance Experts can actually reroll black dice three times and all other dice (other than the one blue die that is spent to trigger Leading Shots) twice, which means fishing for double-hits on the red dice is a possibility (18% chance increases to somewhere in the 40-44% range). Vader + Leading Shots on an ISD II can produce similar results at medium range, and doesn't sacrifice the Gunnery Team upgrade, which means double-hit fishing on 4-5 red dice, twice per round, plus lots of blues for accuracies...

and why would you care about rerolling the raiders blue dice?

Because being able to go fishing for an Accuracy result to assist the black dice is useful.

Also for the same cost has Vader I can run Motti and 3 Leading shots to make sure all of my ISD/VSD's can still reroll so yea Vader still Sucks

Motti in a fleet with entirely ISDs/VSDs is probably superior to Vader, but Leading Shots still costs you a guaranteed icon dice as compared to Vader who costs you a maybe-useful maybe-not defense token. Contain in particular is an easy give-up.

At the ends of the day VSd-1 are the only ships that really. Exclusively benefit from Vader, or could for 2 measly points more upgrade to the GOD OF VSD TARKIN!

As I mentioned above, Vader really helps ISD-Is in particular. Moreso than Tarkin would. VSD-Is can be used pretty successfully with a number of different commanders (Vader, Tarkin, Motti, Screed w/ a ACMs or APTs).

Agree with all points. The more dice you roll, the more chances Vader has to shine. ISDs are the natural platform (which is thematically appropriate), but a decked-out GSD (Expanded Launchers + Ordnance Experts) is no slouch with Vader behind it if you can get in close.

Bottom line (for me, at least): if I'm taking Vader as insurance against catastrophic rolls, there are cheaper options for doing that (and, in the case of Ordnance Experts, vastly superior options since Ordnance Experts doesn't have any opportunity cost other than filling a weapons team slot, and applies to all black dice including anti-squadron if you're running a Raider). If I want maximum, consistently higher damage output, I pair Vader with Leading Shots (on ISDs/VSD IIs) or Ordnance Experts (Raider I/GSDs/VSD Is?) and consider adding upgrades that boost my dice pools (Expanded Launchers/Rapid Reload/Slaved Turrets/Dominator/Devastator) or further modify dice (Needa + TRCs on an ISD II--extremely expensive and intriguing, no?), then watch as opposing ships melt before the Empire's superior firepower.

You have inspired me to make a new Vader list

+++ VADER Death Squadron (387pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (387pts) ++

+ Gladiator Star Destroyer (90pts) +

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (90pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Intel Officer (7pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Demolisher (10pts)]

+ Imperial Star Destroyer (128pts) +

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (128pts) [Gunnery Team (7pts), Intel Officer (7pts), Leading Shots (4pts)]

+ Raider Corvette (137pts) +

Raider I-Class Corvette (85pts) [•Admiral Montferrat (5pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (52pts) [Ordnance Experts (4pts), •Impetuous (4pts)]

+ Squadrons (32pts) +

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

TIE Fighter Squadron (8pts)

+ Objectives +

BE FIRST PLAYER!!