Every couple of weeks I play a list with Vader in it and afterwards, well end up posting a Rant thread about haw he sucks.

So here is my reasoning today, I can do the same thing as Vader for a lessor cost with another admiral, AND gain an additional Ability

So here's my Example, I built a list designed to used Vader here it is:

+++ Vader IRRR (397pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (397pts) ++

+ Imperial Star Destroyer (177pts) +

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (177pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), •Avenger (5pts), •Captain Needa (2pts), •Darth Vader (36pts)]

+ Raider Corvette (171pts) +

Raider I-Class Corvette (57pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (57pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (57pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts)]

+ Squadrons (49pts) +

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

•"Howlrunner" (16pts)

+ Objectives +

Assault Objective [Opening Salvo]

Defense Objective [Fleet Ambush]

Navigation Objective [Minefields]

Basic idea is to use expanded launcher raiders to soften up the enemy, and use Avanger to finish them while Vader increases the damage

So why does he suck?

Well I lost my match pretty badly because I couldn't maneuver sufficiently against ackbar to concentrate fire without dieing, during my post game discussion on how I could fix that in the future I realized I could have this:

+++ Ozzel IRRR (397pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (397pts) ++

+ Imperial Star Destroyer (165pts) +

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (165pts) [Electronic Countermeasures (7pts), Gunnery Team (7pts), Leading Shots (4pts), •Admiral Ozzel (20pts), •Avenger (5pts), •Captain Needa (2pts)]

+ Raider Corvette (183pts) +

Raider I-Class Corvette (61pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (61pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts)]

Raider I-Class Corvette (61pts) [Expanded Launchers (13pts), Ordnance Experts (4pts)]

+ Squadrons (49pts) +

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

TIE Interceptor Squadron (11pts)

•"Howlrunner" (16pts)

For all intents and purposes THE SAME list EXCEPT, I switched out Vader for Ozzel And 3 Ordinance Experts and 1 Leading shots so I can still reroll

Cons of the new list(compared to the old)

-Isd cannot reroll at long range

-It also loses 1 die to reroll

PROS of my new list:

-I can change speed by 2 Greatly increasing my maneuver capabilities and therefore survivability

-I can reroll without spending Defensive tokens

-I can reroll anti-Squadron dice (including leading shots on the ISD)

So I basically lose nothing but gain a lot of flexibility so why would I EVER use Vader?

Now you could say Vader is better with Vsd+Isd lists but instead of him, I could run 3 leading shots gaining basically the same effect(without losing precious defense tokens) and then run Motti for increased hull!

And on smaller Attack pools Scread is >>>>>Then Vader since he guarantees the damage and a critical effect (which you can add with the points you save form not taking Vader)

Sooo anyway VADER!! YOU SUUUUCK!!!!

/Rant over

And remember I am only critical of you because You Were the Chosen one!!

I loved him... But an ordinance expert would've basically been just as effective.

Probably moreso.

My double ISD list has loved Vader. I think he is great when you are working with ISD's and VSD 2's.

When using him I have been known to destroy ships with ease. It helps that I run my ISD 2's with Gunnery Teams and XI7 Turbolasers. They just hit at least one of the same ships in a turn and it usually dies.

My double ISD list has loved Vader. I think he is great when you are working with ISD's and VSD 2's.

When using him I have been known to destroy ships with ease. It helps that I run my ISD 2's with Gunnery Teams and XI7 Turbolasers. They just hit at least one of the same ships in a turn and it usually dies.

Obviously you use Vader for lists that don't rely heavily on Black dice for Ordnance Experts to help you with.

It's a tradeoff for pros and cons. If you like the ability of another admiral and can cover the re-rolls elsewhere, obviously vader's not going to look that great. Since you're running Raiders Ozzel Surprise is in fact, Wiser and you can make the best of your stuff while Ordnance Experts help you with dud rolls.

Buf if you're running an advancing wall of VSD-IIs and want to make the best of all your dice, you could consider Vader. Or ISD-IIs with interesting upgrades and want to take SW-7s, NK-7s, or another kind of Ion upgrade while you can afford to flip the contain defense token to satisfy Vader's cost.

Something to consider as well is that Vader needs that defense token to be exhausted for it to use. Raiders really need to have their defense tokens, especially in the face of heavier lists shooting at them. So Vader hurting your defense isn't great for small lists or staring into the face of MC80 superlasers.

....to be honest, I haven't used Vader since getting him. I like Screed's triggering abilities better, and Motti to induce fear in my enemies with unkillable Star Destroyers.

Vader is a crappy admiral, but the boss of starfighter combat. Fancy that.

Vader, Rhymer, 2xTIE bomber.

plug+play imperial issue ship devastation that beats 2 X-wings or A-wings in combat without suffering a single loss every time.

Imo, you got it right. Vader to me seems overcosted, and easily replacable.

Imo, leading shots is in a way better lol.

I agree that Vader is best suited for Starfighter operations.

FFG why you make Vader so bleh?? =/

Wait a month till someone makes some epic Admiral Vader list...

Vader is a crappy admiral, but the boss of starfighter combat. Fancy that.

Vader, Rhymer, 2xTIE bomber.

plug+play imperial issue ship devastation that beats 2 X-wings or A-wings in combat without suffering a single loss every time.

I don't like Vader as a fighter. I think he's overpriced, and his escort hurts him. He's great as an assassin--I'd much rather pay, say, 18 and lose escort on him.

Edit: upon further review, I think I misunderstood your point. You're saying Vader himself will solo 2 A's or 2 X's. You are correct. I'm leaving it for public shaming purposes.

Edit: upon further review, I think I misunderstood your point. You're saying Vader himself will solo 2 A's or 2 X's. You are correct. I'm leaving it for public shaming purposes.

Yes, the others are there, but not for the dogfighting. Nothing exists in a vacuum, and there is always a counter especially in a finely-balanced game like Armada.

I love this squadron though. It has a very distinct knack of providing the right punch in the right place, and is wonderfully versatile.

FFG why you make Vader so bleh?? =/

I think wedge antilles has it worse, vader is pretty good in most other games.

I know the wwpd/iff guys did an article on vader a while back, definitely makes for a good read. On paper I'm not even sold that Valders ability is better than screed, I think you'd generally rather be rolling black dice any way where screed shines for less. Couple that with burning onces defense tokens and I'm an unhappy camper.

Sooo anyway VADER!! YOU SUUUUCK!!!!

you simply underestimate the power of the dark side

Vader is strong.. he can rescue your bad rolls and he is even more efficient against Ackbar. If you got Ackbar the magic 1 or 2 times per game in your imperial front arc, then you want your attacks to be devastating - which Vader can do for you

imo the whole, hurt things to make more effective firepower also really doesnt feel Vader-y to me. It just feels like some sort of Magic Black color copy.

Idk. Vader is a weird character.

Also being named Dark Father. Lol.

Yeah, there's nothing Vader can do a few paid upgrades can.

Sadly I agree. Vader seems awesome when you first read the card, but the other admirals give you a cool ability on top of the rerolls from paid upgrades.

I do wonder if there is a role for him in an all out aggression list with maximum dice being thrown:

ISD-I

- Vader

- XI7 turbolasers

- Devastator

VSD-I

- Expanded launchers

- Dominator

VSD-I

- Expanded launchers

Raider-I

- APTs

imo the whole, hurt things to make more effective firepower also really doesnt feel Vader-y to me. It just feels like some sort of Magic Black color copy.

Idk. Vader is a weird character.

Also being named Dark Father. Lol.

"It is unwise to lower your defences."

I feel like his ability should've compromised something else for attack power.

Yeah. Idk. He should seem imposing. Even if he hardly ever even does anything on screen.

In a sense he's kind of a tragic and incompetent villain. But awesome.

The real power in him really is the ability to double reroll. Stack reroll abilities together and the dice get very, very reliable and terrifying. It does cost tho.

Dunno, I used Vader last night and he worked out really well for me. Ran him using a VSD2/VSD2/Raider1/Raider1 list. Could have got some rerolls back with Leading Shots and Ordinance Experts, but would have been 16pts to do that. And those rerolls come at a cost too, the Raiders would only reroll blacks and the VSDs can only reroll once they get into blue range.

The VSDs pair of Redirects mean that in most cases I was safe to use one of them on the rerolls, and since the Raiders only need them up close they're a bit happier about flipping an Evade for rerolls there.

Only thing that made me sad was that Rhymer couldn't spend one of his Braces to get a reroll.

Might just have been that Vader performed well in that one game, so I'll need to use him a few more times before really deciding what I think of him, but I'm pretty positive so far.

In the Wave 2 environment I can see him having value because so much of the engagement vs rebels will be at red dice range. I think this is where he will count.

But he is a significant opportunity cost compared to Tarkin who is always useful, or the cheaper guys.