Am I right in thinking that I use this at any point in my activation? For example could I shoot, move and then activate this upgrade card?

I believe the card specifies that it is used "when you activate", which would be first thing you do when you activate the ship.

RRG, Page 5, "Effect use and Timing"


• A “when” effect occurs at the moment that the specified event occurs and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

contrast with:

• A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event.

Because the card is "When" you activate, it happens at that moment.

Which is the same for Boba Fett's Damage. It happens the moment he activates, not anytime during his activation.

Tree falling in the forest question.

If you forget to register the effect, but it technically happened automatically, does it make a sound?

e.g. If you activate Boba, technically the damage happens "when" you activate, if you remember after you have to rely on the "coolness" ratio of your opponent to see if he will let you ret-con it.

Technically it's non-optional, so an opponent should... But at the same time the results of an attack might alter your choice.

Just never forget.

You're talking about an illegal gamestate at this point. Game rules typically don't account for what to do when you don't follow them, that is something usually a dressed in Tournament Rules. But FFG is a bit behind on the subject.

You're talking about an illegal gamestate at this point. Game rules typically don't account for what to do when you don't follow them, that is something usually a dressed in Tournament Rules. But FFG is a bit behind on the subject.

FFG, Tournament Rules, Page 5, Sportsmanship

MISSED OPPORTUNITIES

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

You're talking about an illegal gamestate at this point. Game rules typically don't account for what to do when you don't follow them, that is something usually a dressed in Tournament Rules. But FFG is a bit behind on the subject.

FFG, Tournament Rules, Page 5, Sportsmanship

MISSED OPPORTUNITIES

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

Yes,but in the case of non-optional effects you have an instance where something had to happen but didn't, not a case where a player could have triggered something but didn't. The latter is a missed opportunity the former is an illegal gamestate.

When you start treating non-optional effects (which all of the framework events of the game fall under) as missed opportunities you encourage a certain type of gamesmanship that you really don't want to encourage.

Also, that is a copy and paste job from the X-wing rules into Armada, we don't even have actions as referenced in it. It's a very nebulous and toothless area of the Tournament Rules, and one a X-wing has had an issue with for awhile (Rebel Captive). Only Netrunner has relatively comprehensive rules on the subject, though most of the LCGs have a bit more then the Miniatures side of things.

You're talking about an illegal gamestate at this point. Game rules typically don't account for what to do when you don't follow them, that is something usually a dressed in Tournament Rules. But FFG is a bit behind on the subject.

FFG, Tournament Rules, Page 5, Sportsmanship

MISSED OPPORTUNITIES

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity.

Yes,but in the case of non-optional effects you have an instance where something had to happen but didn't, not a case where a player could have triggered something but didn't. The latter is a missed opportunity the former is an illegal gamestate.

When you start treating non-optional effects (which all of the framework events of the game fall under) as missed opportunities you encourage a certain type of gamesmanship that you really don't want to encourage.

Also, that is a copy and paste job from the X-wing rules into Armada, we don't even have actions as referenced in it. It's a very nebulous and toothless area of the Tournament Rules, and one a X-wing has had an issue with for awhile (Rebel Captive). Only Netrunner has relatively comprehensive rules on the subject, though most of the LCGs have a bit more then the Miniatures side of things.

That's why its under the Sportsmanship. If you are doing it deliberately, or even be seen to do it deliberately, then that's what the Judge is for.

Its hard to have an enforceable " Don't be a **** " policy, when you want to encourage fun games... And honestly, its usually the hyper-competitive games that have legal clauses to enforce so much, that start - personally - to get the fun game aspect stripped from them.

Personally, I don't see the explicit difference between a Missed Opportunity and, as you state, an illegal gamestate .

Is it because "Missed Opportunity" has the inherent word bias that it is positive for you, and you missed it?

Because I see, as per your description, an Illegal Gamestate is the result of a Missed Opportunity for your Opponent .

The explicit difference is that in the case of a Missed Opportunity is that whatever it was that wasn't utilized, not utilizing it was a legal play. For example I could opt to not utilize my Intel Officer, I may have wanted to or intended to, but I didn't within the correct timing. I am not permitted to retroactively make that play without my opponent saying I can.

Conversely, an Illegal Gamestate would be created if missing whatever it is was missed was not possible (legal) according to the rules. I can not forget the dice added to die to my side arc from EA, though there is the human error issue that may result.

So the essential difference is in one case the resulting play could be legal, though it may be non-optimal, but in the other the resulting play is not legal. Optional vs not optional effects.

When a ruleset treats non-optional effects in the same manner as optional effects you run into an issue where you are encentivizing players to not properly execute the games rules because it may not be to thier benefit. It's a really bad environment to cultivate as it is a much harder environment to judge within, due to the difficulty of determining play intent.

If you push that both players are responsible for all mandatory effects and provide sensible ways to fix possible errors, and spell out possible penalties for making those errors (not having to divine intent) then you have a much more serviceable way to prevent a deal with players flubbing the rules.

Most FFG games don't have that, and it really is showing in some.

If you want we can continue this in PM as it is pretty far off topic.

If you want we can continue this in PM as it is pretty far off topic.

I will be honest, with the utmost of respect for you - I don't see a point to it...

Your position is not Incorrect , after all. its just not right for me and my Meta...

Its less about who is correct - because, you are. Its just wether the argument is actually necessary for the way the game is played in your area.

I don't feel it is for mine - at this point in time - it might in the future, who knows...

But thank you, regardless, for clarifying your opinion on the matter, too.. Its given me food for thought. So Sincerely, Thank you.

Hmmm I guess everyone missed the park in the RRG under Effects Use and Timing stating that they are optional unless they specify otherwise.

• Resolving an upgrade card effect is optional unless otherwise specified. All other card effects are mandatory unless otherwise specified.

There is no specification that states you HAVE to do it. The above rule states that there has to be a line to that effect.

Scottie is making an argument that has very little to do with the tractor beams as such. The discussion has move on a bit.

Consider:

A better example would be to flip over defense tokens during the status phase, if you forget do I play on and make you keep them exhausted?

With that in mind reread what Scottie is saying, it makes much more sense and is quite thought provoking.

It is also one of those discussion points where there is no absolute answer and each situation should be taken on its own merit. At one end of the spectrum would be the player that rushes past the phase and hopes to elicit his opponent into forgetting. At the other end a player who reminds his opponent over and over and gets ignored, then doesn't allow his opponent to ready those tokens as he has moved a ship or hasn't on the basis of the game state at that time.

Now you can complicate the idea a bit further, what if I just rolled 5 blanks, and you then noticed. Could I ask for you to allow me to take back my move as I would have considered my choice to be different? Then when you decline I also decline, or perhaps worse you say OK and then I do the same thing anyway and in effect just get a re-roll.

Scottie is making an argument that has very little to do with the tractor beams as such. The discussion has move on a bit.

Consider:

A better example would be to flip over defense tokens during the status phase, if you forget do I play on and make you keep them exhausted?

With that in mind reread what Scottie is saying, it makes much more sense and is quite thought provoking.

It is also one of those discussion points where there is no absolute answer and each situation should be taken on its own merit. At one end of the spectrum would be the player that rushes past the phase and hopes to elicit his opponent into forgetting. At the other end a player who reminds his opponent over and over and gets ignored, then doesn't allow his opponent to ready those tokens as he has moved a ship or hasn't on the basis of the game state at that time.

Now you can complicate the idea a bit further, what if I just rolled 5 blanks, and you then noticed. Could I ask for you to allow me to take back my move as I would have considered my choice to be different? Then when you decline I also decline, or perhaps worse you say OK and then I do the same thing anyway and in effect just get a re-roll.

I know. I was trying to make the argument moot.

Tree falling in the forest question.

If you forget to register the effect, but it technically happened automatically, does it make a sound?

e.g. If you activate Boba, technically the damage happens "when" you activate, if you remember after you have to rely on the "coolness" ratio of your opponent to see if he will let you ret-con it.

I always looked at it this way....If I have to use the letter of the rules because my opponent forgot something just to win then my victory is meaningless.

To close the loop on this, the trigger for tractor beams is when you activate, which is the same trigger as revealing your command dial. So as they have the same timing step, you can choose which to do first.