If you were going to a tournament tomorrow and you knew you would face one Rhymer list, maybe two, what squadrons would you play to deal with it?

Rebels - A solid Awing/Xwing force, Dutch and Wedge

Empire - IG-88, Howlrunner and a bunch of TIEs.

That depends on a few things. First, are you playing with rebels or imperials? Second, what do the balls generally include? Firesprays? TIE Bombers? Dengar? Are there some Interceptors thrown in there? Are there some Advanced on there?

My initial thoughts are always A-Wings and Interceptors. Counter generally makes Rhymerballs cry. If Dengar is there, he is your top priority. If you shut down any Intel capability, you've generally got it beat. Once you give me a little more detail, I can give you a more conclusive plan.

Hmm... Well, start by assuming they're bringing escorts or a jumpmaster. It's still too early in wave 2 for me to say which is more likely, but unless someone is trying to surprise a no-squadron list with massed firesprays, assume that there'll be a screen of tie fighters or interceptors, or a pogostick to keep them the bombers from being tied down.

In either case, I think you want a Hawk or pogostick of your own to keep your fighters from being tied down by 1-2 sacrificial models. The main difference would be your choice of hunter for this. Against a pure rhymer ball, the X-wing is the best predator- It's durable and has a hard-hitting anti-squadron armament (Although once intel is gone, counter is kind of hillarious against the Time Bomber). With escorts, the A-wing seems a better bet since the speed and counter ability will be more relevant here. For the empire, Interceptors are the best pure dogfighters, but generic Ties will do better at overwhelming lightly defended bombers.

Heavy use of the advanced changes things a bit, but on the other hand, that means trading a lot of anti-ship firepower for an anti-squadron attack that is still pretty lackluster and the escort keyword.

Don't lose sight of what your other opponents will be bringing. If you spend 100 points to defeat Rhymer and play 4 games against opponents who don't run Rhymer, those 100 anti-Rhymer points still need to be able to do something. That's what made A-Wings so viable in Wave 1; they still do OK against ships when they don't have any intercepting to do.

I'm always going to assume Rhymer as the updated Fireball, running Dengar in the mix for Heavy.

That means I'm expecting at least Rhymer, Dengar, 4x Firesprays, and the last ship is to taste (Boba, Vader, whatever).

I've been trying to figure this out too, but I don't think its actually possible to punish the Fireball unless you bring something similar in force. Too small a force and you can't lock down the Firesprays and you're just throwing away points.

I'm currently looking at: Luke, Wedge, Jan, Dutch and 3x A-Wings, with maybe Tycho in there instead of an A-Wing. This gives me a durable force that can stay in combat and have enough combat tricks to put out a lot of damage and value. My only problem with this is that it detracts from the list I want to make, and pretty much requires that I'm all in on squadrons like he is.

I just don't think there's an answer to the Fireball unless you take something equal in force. You simply can't tie it up or do as much damage to it without it ripping through your squadrons first.

Raiders with ACMs with both titles?

the ACMs still make them viable anti-ship activations and all them black squadron dice and high speed means you can jump into a rhymerball, poop out a bunch of black dice and possibly survive, plus you don't have to eat all the dengar counter-hate...

At the end of the day if your opponent has invested 130 points in squads you might want to focus on pasting his ships instead lol. Once ships are dead you win! Thats what happened to my experimental 4 raider pocket carrier list disaster.

I just don't think there's an answer to the Fireball unless you take something equal in force. You simply can't tie it up or do as much damage to it without it ripping through your squadrons first.

Why wouldn't you be able to tie it up? For a equivalent points cost, they don't put out that much antisquadron fire. And you don't need to tie it up the whole game, just long enough to make their contribution moot.

So against your 133 point fireball, something like 7 A-wings at a little over half the cost would do well enough. You have to take out Dengar, but then if they can hold the Ball until turn 4 or 5 then the battle should have passed them by, and you will have neutralized the enemy points for half the cost.

I just don't think there's an answer to the Fireball unless you take something equal in force. You simply can't tie it up or do as much damage to it without it ripping through your squadrons first.

Why wouldn't you be able to tie it up? For a equivalent points cost, they don't put out that much antisquadron fire. And you don't need to tie it up the whole game, just long enough to make their contribution moot.

So against your 133 point fireball, something like 7 A-wings at a little over half the cost would do well enough. You have to take out Dengar, but then if they can hold the Ball until turn 4 or 5 then the battle should have passed them by, and you will have neutralized the enemy points for half the cost.

Because numbers wise, I don't think you can chew through it. No with 3 dice and 50% chance to hit. With Vader and Dengar, you won't be able to touch Rhymer and the boys and they will break off, do their thing while you're stuck there.

It's not like the Fireball can't attack back, and that's the biggest thing. Pseudo 4 dice from Counter 1 is a real thing vs. those 4-HP A-Wings.

I just don't think there's an answer to the Fireball unless you take something equal in force. You simply can't tie it up or do as much damage to it without it ripping through your squadrons first.

Why wouldn't you be able to tie it up? For a equivalent points cost, they don't put out that much antisquadron fire. And you don't need to tie it up the whole game, just long enough to make their contribution moot.

So against your 133 point fireball, something like 7 A-wings at a little over half the cost would do well enough. You have to take out Dengar, but then if they can hold the Ball until turn 4 or 5 then the battle should have passed them by, and you will have neutralized the enemy points for half the cost.

Because numbers wise, I don't think you can chew through it. No with 3 dice and 50% chance to hit. With Vader and Dengar, you won't be able to touch Rhymer and the boys and they will break off, do their thing while you're stuck there.

It's not like the Fireball can't attack back, and that's the biggest thing. Pseudo 4 dice from Counter 1 is a real thing vs. those 4-HP A-Wings.

Then, just sit. Don't attack with your Awings....they're not there to kill, and shooting just gets that counter 1 invoked. They're just there to engage the Firesprays for as long as possible. If you can, hold a couple back and feed them in on turn 3 or 4 to prolong the agony. Or even better, throw a YT-1300 in on turn 3/4 to ensure the mob is tied up (7hp's and counter 1!).

Meanwhile, kill the ships with your 60 point ship advantage. There, won you the game.

Wait, you do know that Dengar gives you heavy right?

Without an Escort Dengar has a relatively short lifespan. Sometimes you get lucky, but he nearly always dies first of your squadrons. Well worth the points, but I don't expect him to last.

EZ Counter4

Howl

Dengar

3 Ints

Add

Rhymer for lolz

Add 1 tie for econ and a deployment squadron bid.

Soontir fel for more lolz.

All the squadrons cuz you're gonna win that squadron game ALLL DAYYY.

Wait, you do know that Dengar gives you heavy right?

First, kill Dengar.

This works.

Wait, you do know that Dengar gives you heavy right?

First, kill Dengar.

This works.

It does work, when it works.

But when it doesn't it's just turns that you're stuck in there by 1 ship, maybe 2 while the Firesprays are freestyling on your ships from medium range. A Firespray with Rhymer has a threat range of a Speed-5 ship. Dengar doesn't care about anything except for disrupting your fighters and holding you in place while the Firesprays get to shoot.

If the Firesprays are still in the fight, great, all the better. They ignore you and shoot your ships from medium range (which by now, should be up the board and in range of most things).

6 HP on each FS is a lot to chew through, especially with 50% chance to hit on 3 dice. It's not as easy as some of you profess..

Sorry, I should have added that it's a lot more challenging for Rebels than it is for Imperials because Imperials have very good, dedicated anti-squadron.

Howl and 5 Ints would do the job nicely for around the same points as the proposed A-Wing squad. The extra dice and re-rolls from Swarm really matter guys, it really does.

I just don't think there's an answer to the Fireball unless you take something equal in force. You simply can't tie it up or do as much damage to it without it ripping through your squadrons first.

Why wouldn't you be able to tie it up? For a equivalent points cost, they don't put out that much antisquadron fire. And you don't need to tie it up the whole game, just long enough to make their contribution moot.

So against your 133 point fireball, something like 7 A-wings at a little over half the cost would do well enough. You have to take out Dengar, but then if they can hold the Ball until turn 4 or 5 then the battle should have passed them by, and you will have neutralized the enemy points for half the cost.

Because numbers wise, I don't think you can chew through it. No with 3 dice and 50% chance to hit. With Vader and Dengar, you won't be able to touch Rhymer and the boys and they will break off, do their thing while you're stuck there.

It's not like the Fireball can't attack back, and that's the biggest thing. Pseudo 4 dice from Counter 1 is a real thing vs. those 4-HP A-Wings.

No no, you don't need to chew through it. That's the point. First, kill Dengar.

Then, just sit. Don't attack with your Awings....they're not there to kill, and shooting just gets that counter 1 invoked. They're just there to engage the Firesprays for as long as possible. If you can, hold a couple back and feed them in on turn 3 or 4 to prolong the agony. Or even better, throw a YT-1300 in on turn 3/4 to ensure the mob is tied up (7hp's and counter 1!).

Meanwhile, kill the ships with your 60 point ship advantage. There, won you the game.

I'm very confused. First you kill Dengar. Then you don't attack because of Counter 1. Which went away when you killed Dengar...

For Rebels you want Jan Ors and either 3 X-wings as escorts or 3 x YT-1300s. The problem with TY-1300s is their speed so I have run the MC-80 with Independence and completely shut down Fireballs.

For Rebels you want Jan Ors and either 3 X-wings as escorts or 3 x YT-1300s. The problem with TY-1300s is their speed so I have run the MC-80 with Independence and completely shut down Fireballs.

Completely shut down as in, moving them speed-4 and then having Dengar give them Heavy, so the Rhymer + Firesprays can still into your ships or..?

I'm very confused. First you kill Dengar. Then you don't attack because of Counter 1. Which went away when you killed Dengar...

Hmmm, you're absolutely right. So it's even more important to killl Dengar first, faster.

Sorry, I should have added that it's a lot more challenging for Rebels than it is for Imperials because Imperials have very good, dedicated anti-squadron.

Howl and 5 Ints would do the job nicely for around the same points as the proposed A-Wing squad. The extra dice and re-rolls from Swarm really matter guys, it really does.

I don't disagree that the Imperials can do a better job throwing more dice. And since killing Dengar is the key to this, they can pick apart the Fireball strategy more reliably. But your repeated statements about the Firespray's HP make me think you've missed my point slightly. For my strategy, it doesn't matter if the Firesprays have 7 HP or 70 HP, because I don't have to kill them. I just have to kill Dengar, and survive with some fighters for 3 or 4 turns.

That's a lot easier than killing the Firesprays, but achieves the same purpose.

That's a lot easier than killing the Firesprays, but achieves the same purpose.

My concern would be the Firesprays being able to take out said A-Wings after a turn or three, potentially still getting anti-ship shots off. You'll slow them, but will they be stopped?

For Rebels you want Jan Ors and either 3 X-wings as escorts or 3 x YT-1300s. The problem with TY-1300s is their speed so I have run the MC-80 with Independence and completely shut down Fireballs.

Completely shut down as in, moving them speed-4 and then having Dengar give them Heavy, so the Rhymer + Firesprays can still into your ships or..?

Alternatively, a player who was not incompetent would not place all three YT-1300s right next to each other and allow Dengar to make them all heavy at the same time...

That's a lot easier than killing the Firesprays, but achieves the same purpose.

My concern would be the Firesprays being able to take out said A-Wings after a turn or three, potentially still getting anti-ship shots off. You'll slow them, but will they be stopped?

Yes, an absolutely valid concern. The more fighters you bring, the better your chances...but the fewer ship upgrades and/or bombers you'll have. Are you a gambling space being?

And I would rephrase your question. Not will they be stopped, but will they be slowed enough?

That's a lot easier than killing the Firesprays, but achieves the same purpose.

My concern would be the Firesprays being able to take out said A-Wings after a turn or three, potentially still getting anti-ship shots off. You'll slow them, but will they be stopped?

Yes, an absolutely valid concern. The more fighters you bring, the better your chances...but the fewer ship upgrades and/or bombers you'll have. Are you a gambling space being?

And I would rephrase your question. Not will they be stopped, but will they be slowed enough?

I suppose I'm Biased since I'll be running said Fireball. I'm mostly watching for...research purposes.

If you've killed dengar, counter one is no longer an issue mat.

Edit: stupid phone, I didnt realize how far along this conversation had gone. This post was supposed to slot in earlier.