My friend says that when he can discard his defense tokens at any time to meet the criteria for Devastator. This is correct?

And, does Devastator's bonus work with both shots from Gunnery Team? I'm assuming not because it says once per round.

You can't just discard a token, as there is no rule for just discarding a token willy-nilly...

However, you can use measures, such as Vader, et al, to discard them quicker. But it must be within the bounds of the Rules... And that is, if its Spend, it goes from Readied to Exhausted, and then at the next opportunity, from Exhausted to Discarded...

If its just Discarded, its just discarded...

But there must be a rule allowing you to do it. For lack of a better term, Tokens of any kind aren't touchable unless the rules say they are.

Once per Round is Once per Round... It may go on either shot of gunnery Teams, but its only on One shot...

His reply:
We will just have to agree to disagree here and they may want to FAQ this.

The rules say:

" Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for
upgrade card effects"

(1) Am I spending defense tokens? Yes-discarding them is spending them as per the rules.

(2) Am I spending them as part of a cost for upgrade card effect? Yes, the cost is to have discarded tokens to get blue dice.

It is a logical conclusion, though it can probably go either way and is a bit ambiguous.

Its not a logical conclusion.

The Upgrade card in this case, Devastator, lists a result of the Discarding, not the implementation of the Discarding.

It does not tell you that you may Discard Defense Tokens outside of the Rules Given. Only that there is, essentially, a reward for having done so. Devestator does not have a cost as such, it just as a result .

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And quoting Admonition as an example, and the cost aka spending from the Dominator title.

I will also add, I doubt there will be an FAQ on this.

Mostly because I doubt many people, after a clear logical reading of what is permitted and what is said by the card, would disagree with our stances. And FAQs are for frequently asked questions...

At the very least, there would be far more pressing questions needing clarity before this one.

It actually is a logical conclusion, so consider the following:

The rules say:

"Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for

Also, dicarding defence tokens is not the same as spending them. It can be a result of spending (an exahusted token), but it's most asuredly not the same thing.

"Once per round, while attacking from your front hull zone, you may add 1 blue die to your attack pool for each of your discarded defense tokens."

The card text is pretty clear. It does not allow you to discard a defense token, it specifically states that if you have discarded tokens (through other card effects, or using an exhausted token when attacked), you can add a blue die for each token you discarded.

If the title would allow you to discard a token, it would say "you can discard a token(s) to add a blue die per token" or something along those lines.

yeah, the critical part is the "of of your discarded", which is written in past tense, meaning that the defense tokens must have been discarded prior to the card usage taking place.

One can just look at the Admonition title. That states you can discard a token. Devastator does not have that line.

One can just look at the Admonition title. That states you can discard a token. Devastator does not have that line.

I know, do you know how infuriating it is talking to someone who doesn't take those cards as examples and argues directly from points made from the reference sheet, and tells me to use logic to understand instead?

One can just look at the Admonition title. That states you can discard a token. Devastator does not have that line.

I know, do you know how infuriating it is talking to someone who doesn't take those cards as examples and argues directly from points made from the reference sheet, and tells me to use logic to understand instead?

What reference sheet is he referring to?

Let's make this easy eh.

Page 4 of the Rules Reference Guide under Defense Tokens:

Ships and unique squadrons gain the defense tokens indicated on their ship and squadron cards during setup and place them next to their corresponding cards. Defense tokens can be spent by the defender during the “Spend Defense Tokens” step of an attack to produce the effects described below:

One can just look at the Admonition title. That states you can discard a token. Devastator does not have that line.

I know, do you know how infuriating it is talking to someone who doesn't take those cards as examples and argues directly from points made from the reference sheet, and tells me to use logic to understand instead?

Yes. I have been on both sides LK.

What reference sheet is he referring to?

I think Pg.4 defense tokens, last bullet point, where it says: "Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect."

One can just look at the Admonition title. That states you can discard a token. Devastator does not have that line.

I know, do you know how infuriating it is talking to someone who doesn't take those cards as examples and argues directly from points made from the reference sheet, and tells me to use logic to understand instead?

Yes. I have been on both sides LK.

What reference sheet is he referring to?

I think Pg.4 defense tokens, last bullet point, where it says: "Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token does not produce its normal effect."

(2) Am I spending them as part of a cost for upgrade card effect? Yes, the cost is to have discarded tokens to get blue dice.

No no no. So much no.

There is NO COST to use Devastator, there is a PREREQUISITE. That prerequisite is that you have already discarded defense tokens. Devastator does not attach any mechanic to the SPENDING of defense tokens, nor does it allow you to spend them.

(2) Am I spending them as part of a cost for upgrade card effect? Yes, the cost is to have discarded tokens to get blue dice.

No no no. So much no.

There is NO COST to use Devastator, there is a PREREQUISITE. That prerequisite is that you have already discarded defense tokens. Devastator does not attach any mechanic to the SPENDING of defense tokens, nor does it allow you to spend them.

Correct but the person ( who I am not debating with on Facebook) does not see it that way. Both HERO and I agree whith you.

::sniff::

(2) Am I spending them as part of a cost for upgrade card effect? Yes, the cost is to have discarded tokens to get blue dice.

No no no. So much no.

There is NO COST to use Devastator, there is a PREREQUISITE. That prerequisite is that you have already discarded defense tokens. Devastator does not attach any mechanic to the SPENDING of defense tokens, nor does it allow you to spend them.

Correct but the person ( who I am not debating with on Facebook) does not see it that way. Both HERO and I agree whith you.

Well, they're wrong.

Turn it around. The gate you have to get through here isn't why *can't* I spend a defense token, it's why *can* I?

You can spend a defense token during the spend defense token step, or to trigger the effect of a card. Devastator does not trigger on the spending of a defense token, it triggers on the initiation of an attack and decision to add blue dice, at which point you consult the defense tokens to determine how many.

As an example of how such a thing could happen, you can show him the interaction between Vader and Devastator, where you can use Vader to spend a red defense token while attacking and then immediately add blue dice from that token using Devastator, but it requires both cards to work.

It actually is a logical conclusion, so consider the following:

The rules say:

"Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for

upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token

does not produce its normal effect." -last bullet point under "Defense Tokens" subject

Devastator says:

"Once per round, while attacking from your front hull zone, you may add 1 blue die to your attack pool for each of your discarded defense tokens"

I get that because it doesn't say "spend token for x effect" that some people have a problem with this. However, just ask yourself the following questions...

(1) Is there a cost for the Devastator card effect? Logically speaking, yes-you have to have a discarded defense token for every blue dice. Therefore, to trigger the Devastator card effect, you have to have discarded defense tokens. Since the rules specifically say that you can spend tokens for a card's effects, the effect in this case being getting an extra blue dice, I submit that you can discard a defense token to then achieve this effect.

There is no cost associated with that ability, there is a requirement. "Each discarded defense token" could be replaced with "each face-up damage card" or "each command token", and none of those statements would be a cost.

An example of a cost would be the Vader Commander.

"While a friendly ship is attacking a ship, it may spend 1 defense token to reroll any number of dice in its attack pool."

Notice the very specific difference between how the effect is worded compared to the Devestator's. Specifically the spend/do X to do Y structure of it. That structure is exactly what denotes that X is a cost.

There is no grounds for the person described in the OPs stance. It is just an unsupportable position overall. Unfortunately if that player is really going to demand an FAQ or FFG answer to be dissuaded from his untenable stance then I forsee alot of issues for that player when it comes to correctly interpreting this games rules.

(2) Am I spending them as part of a cost for upgrade card effect? Yes, the cost is to have discarded tokens to get blue dice.

No no no. So much no.

There is NO COST to use Devastator, there is a PREREQUISITE. That prerequisite is that you have already discarded defense tokens. Devastator does not attach any mechanic to the SPENDING of defense tokens, nor does it allow you to spend them.

Correct but the person ( who I am not debating with on Facebook) does not see it that way. Both HERO and I agree whith you.

Well, they're wrong.

Turn it around. The gate you have to get through here isn't why *can't* I spend a defense token, it's why *can* I?

You can spend a defense token during the spend defense token step, or to trigger the effect of a card. Devastator does not trigger on the spending of a defense token, it triggers on the initiation of an attack and decision to add blue dice, at which point you consult the defense tokens to determine how many.

As an example of how such a thing could happen, you can show him the interaction between Vader and Devastator, where you can use Vader to spend a red defense token while attacking and then immediately add blue dice from that token using Devastator, but it requires both cards to work.

All that has been tried. This guy is being very dense atm. . . I think it would be easier to punch a hole in the battle plate of an Imperial Star Destroyer with a rock in all honesty. . .

It actually is a logical conclusion, so consider the following:

The rules say:

"Defense tokens can be spent as part of a cost for

upgrade card effects. If spent in this way, a defense token

does not produce its normal effect." -last bullet point under "Defense Tokens" subject

Devastator says:

"Once per round, while attacking from your front hull zone, you may add 1 blue die to your attack pool for each of your discarded defense tokens"

I get that because it doesn't say "spend token for x effect" that some people have a problem with this. However, just ask yourself the following questions...

(1) Is there a cost for the Devastator card effect? Logically speaking, yes-you have to have a discarded defense token for every blue dice. Therefore, to trigger the Devastator card effect, you have to have discarded defense tokens. Since the rules specifically say that you can spend tokens for a card's effects, the effect in this case being getting an extra blue dice, I submit that you can discard a defense token to then achieve this effect.

There is no cost associated with that ability, there is a requirement. "Each discarded defense token" could be replaced with "each face-up damage card" or "each command token", and none of those statements would be a cost.

An example of a cost would be the Vader Commander.

"While a friendly ship is attacking a ship, it may spend 1 defense token to reroll any number of dice in its attack pool."

Notice the very specific difference between how the effect is worded compared to the Devestator's. Specifically the spend/do X to do Y structure of it. That structure is exactly what denotes that X is a cost.

There is no grounds for the person described in the OPs stance. It is just an unsupportable position overall. Unfortunately if that player is really going to demand an FAQ or FFG answer to be dissuaded from his untenable stance then I forsee alot of issues for that player when it comes to correctly interpreting this games rules.

I mean, I could walk into a Chess tournament and declare that by my interpretation a Bishop piece can move either straight OR diagonal.

People would call me names, and nobody would play with me, but I could do it.

He is missquoting that rule.

Fact of the matter is, the rule he is talking about applies specifically to the "spend defense tokens" step of the attack resolution stack.

in other words, the spending of the token to trigger a card effect would have to happen when defending from an attack. You can't just decide to discard a token at your convenience!

Just a follow-up thought but... is there anything preventing me from spending all of my defense tokens in the "spend defense tokens" step even if they aren't really useful?

I can, for instance, take a hit of seven damage and decide to brace, brace redirect, or none of the above.

Can I take two damage at close range, spend a brace, a redirect, and an evade, then use the brace and redirect while the evade effectively does nothing?

It doesn't seem like the way it's worded prevents you from spending a token on nothing.

EDIT: You still couldn't empty out an ISD unless you used Needa to replace one of the redirects (Since you can't spend two of the same type on one attack) but still, you could drop your tokens pretty quickly if you wanted to this way.