I'm just finding it a little distressing that an Ackbar M80 + 2x A/F list can hold off a "mirror" Imperial-VSD-VSD list so well that the Empire has to upgrade to 3x Imperials to out-shoot it. I thought the Empire had supremacy with capital ships and the Rebels were supposed to compromise with more powerful fighters.
My Imperials CAN'T BEAT ACKBAR!!!
I'm just finding it a little distressing that an Ackbar M80 + 2x A/F list can hold off a "mirror" Imperial-VSD-VSD list so well that the Empire has to upgrade to 3x Imperials to out-shoot it. I thought the Empire had supremacy with capital ships and the Rebels were supposed to compromise with more powerful fighters.
Well, any list, regardless Rebels or Imperials running 3x big ships is going to suffer vs. the likes of Rhymer and friends.
I know what you're saying though, but I think the meta right now actually sees the exact opposite. The Rebels have the weaker squadrons, about equal in terms of capital ships, arguably tied in the small ship game (CR90 TRCs and MC30s vs. the Raider-I and Glad-Is). I think the meta's balance is tied directly towards the Fireball right now. Bold statement, I know, but I'm very sure this is the case.
Edited by HERORight, but that's a fighter list beating capital ships. What I'm lamenting is that between capital ships, the Empire is not supreme in these kinds of match-ups anymore. I don't think even Vader can make up the difference, since he's sacrificing resiliency and not adding dice.
Right, but that's a fighter list beating capital ships. What I'm lamenting is that between capital ships, the Empire is not supreme in these kinds of match-ups anymore. I don't think even Vader can make up the difference, since he's sacrificing resiliency and not adding dice.
Don't lament, buy Firesprays.
It sounds like your friend is a jerk. If he'd rather just get an auto win, tell him that he's a jerk and he should play with himself.
Edit: I guess you could be a reasonable person and have a conversation with him...
Remember my little fencing quote? "If you are doing something and it works keep doing it, if you are doing something and it doesn't work, then you have to change what you are doing."
There is no conversation to be had here, the OP has to change, learn and get better. Overall this makes both players stronger and they'll have far more fun.
My friend has been playing a GSD x 3 list with ACM and Engine Techs and a small fighter force to slow up a squadron list. I have had a blast coming up with ideas and tactics to put the list away. When I do the onus will then be on him to adapt and change.
There is plenty of good advice here for the OP to follow through on.
Last time I played against an MC80 I managed to ram it head on with a speed 3 ISD. It had no side arcs on me, either lol. You can imagine how that went...
But seriously. I don't think it can be stressed enough... Fireball!
My favourite thing in the world now is using rhymer as a buff delivery system for a bunch of firesprays. This tactic can operate quite effectively with zero squadron commands as you only need to move rhymer to the next "turret" position and then hop over with the firesprays and shoot any ship at medium range you want. Get them in the right spot to get run over by something as slow and predictable as an MC80 and even rhymer can start shooting command-free. It is quite literally the bane of big ship lists.
I'm working on my ship list counters to Ackbar too.
I have a feeling the ISD is the right tool for it. Not the VSD. Its too slow.
--
From your notes, you did a few things REALLY wrong:
Stop coming to him as 2nd player. If he wants to play the avoid game, don't chase into his side arcs. Drop to 0 instead for a turn while he flies away. And turn hard to get in front of him.
Second: STOP BEING FIRST AND GOING TOWARDS SOMETHING THATS RUNNING AWAY AS SECOND!!!!
Bid 10 points, choose to be second and sit on your contested outpost for days.
Hell, Gladiators in your list? Hyperspace Assault!
Break up his formation? Pick Fleet Ambush
Last of all, can't stress this enough, it really does seem like Imps have the edge in squadrons atm, just rhymer/interceptor/firespray him.
The one thing that concerns me about the MC80 is the 8 hull, it is just asking for APT Missiles and rams.
An ISD and 3-4 Raiders should be able to exploit that a bit.
The one thing that concerns me about the MC80 is the 8 hull, it is just asking for APT Missiles and rams.
An ISD and 3-4 Raiders should be able to exploit that a bit.
Indeed. At last tourney there was a guy with 3 GSD 3 Raider list all with ACM and he tabled an ackbar list with 6 A-wings in it.
The one thing that concerns me about the MC80 is the 8 hull, it is just asking for APT Missiles and rams.
An ISD and 3-4 Raiders should be able to exploit that a bit.
Indeed. At last tourney there was a guy with 3 GSD 3 Raider list all with ACM and he tabled an ackbar list with 6 A-wings in it.
Sounds about right.
Ackbar has a field day shooting VSDs all day, but if you overwhelm him with Glad/Raideers and ISDs, he goes down quick.
I'm wondering how resilient people are finding their Raiders. I do have a five-ship list with ISD/GSD/RD I want to try (using screed for OP and ACM fun), but I'm wary of what the Ackbar broadsides can kill with enough dice if you position wrong. It's why I've been leaning on VSDs and ISDs... at least I can tank damage if there was no avoiding it trying to attack an awake MC80 driver. The arcs are wide on the 80...
I'm wondering how resilient people are finding their Raiders. I do have a five-ship list with ISD/GSD/RD I want to try (using screed for OP and ACM fun), but I'm wary of what the Ackbar broadsides can kill with enough dice if you position wrong. It's why I've been leaning on VSDs and ISDs... at least I can tank damage if there was no avoiding it trying to attack an awake MC80 driver. The arcs are wide on the 80...
I think the point is to saturate the arc of the MC80 with multiple targets. A Raider, an ISD and a Glad coming down on the Home One will raise a couple of eyebrows for sure.
- Choose objectives that let you hug a board edge.
- Use lots of bombers
If you are on the board edge he will have to either:
- Run off the board (lose)
- turn on the inside of you, allowing you to manoeuvre your ships for a head on ram.
Rebels need to have the outside edge of the engagement in order to circle you. If your ships are on the edge of the board, and have an advantage by being there depending on the mission, you will eventually force him to make a more dynamic list.
What the hell is a fireball
have you rammed him in the front arc with your glad? and then hit him with bombers and ISDs through it? If he is flying a line his next ship will ram him also and might just stop the whole battle right there. 
Wow! Thank you everyone! Please allow me to read all of this to properly respond.
He is running squads with his most popular build, which is as follows (to the best of my memory):
2 Mon Cal 80 Attack Cruisers with Ackbar and Home One on one and both decked out with matching Advanced Projectors, Slaved Turrets. He also runs squads which have changed game to game but always includes Wedge, Luke, and Han Solo. Yesterday he ran those 3 with Dash, and another YT2400. My 4 TIEs, Boba, and Bossk made short work of all of the above (with the exception of Han) but by that point I was dead. I try to trap him and rush the front because he basically sets up the exact same way each game (sideways in the middle of the map, typically facing toward my left). I set up on my left side of the board and rush his front at speed 3 but my ISDs are so darned big that he always seems to squeak in a shot on at least one of my ISDs each turn and I can't engineer quickly enough. I ran Rhymer Balls but they typically get cut up by XWings, AWings, and Han shoots first (which is why I threw in Boba). I am going to give a list with a Rhymer Ball and blocker Raiders a try tomorrow. I have also made note of each of your suggestions and will post my success (or lack thereof) on this post.
I am excited to take on this challenge in the name of the Galactic Empire and rid the world of Admiral Ackbar and his uppity Rebel Alliance!
Oh and yes, we are using a full 400 points! 
What kind of objectives are you using? And are you going first or second?
Going first sucks until you're in engagement range, where you should (in theory) be able to knock out ships before they have the chance to fire. You could also hit him with certain Ion cannons early to benefit with later in the turn.
Going second though gives you the advantage of having objectives on your side and the first-shot advantage as the enemy is coming into range. Here is where you can bend some of the special rules in your favor, assuming you know what to look for. Some Objectives to consider:
Advanced Gunnery: This will give Ackbar the Gunnery teams he needs, but consider that your Star Destroyer as second player can target the same arc with a second shot. Really useful if you've set up overload pulse and have the Avenger, or XI7s with some accuracy to lock out brace.
Minefields: with complete domination of the terrain step of setup, you could create a condition that forces his ships to fly through minefields or obstacles to reach your ships. Set up at speed 1, bank two navigation commands at start, and wait for them to come to you. In the very least you're dictating they take engineering for the first few turns as they are flying though the mines.
Fire Lanes: There is no restriction saying you can't stack them in the same spot. Even if the enemy moves them there's a good chance that you can slow-roll and dominate these tokens on the advance, racking up enough points to equate the loss of a Star Destroyer in the endgame. I did this against a two MC80 list, and though I lost my ISD and was close to losing my VSDs, I had accumulated an embarrassing amount of points.
Most Wanted: being able to choose both ships means their most valuable ship is easier to take out and worth more points when you do. While you can designate your expendable Raider for only a fraction of the worth.
Fleet Ambush: This can force the opponent to deploy out of formation, forcing one ship at the rear while presenting the other two as easy targets.
Hyperspace Assault: If you have a queued up Gladiator or VSD-I with expanded launchers, you can hyperspace it out into the forward arc of that MC80 and let it rip. The MC80 will never be able to turn to avoid you, while you're pummeling it with your best arcs.
So... there are other ways to win beyond brute force on the battlefield.
What kind of objectives are you using? And are you going first or second?
Going first sucks until you're in engagement range, where you should (in theory) be able to knock out ships before they have the chance to fire. You could also hit him with certain Ion cannons early to benefit with later in the turn.
Going second though gives you the advantage of having objectives on your side and the first-shot advantage as the enemy is coming into range. Here is where you can bend some of the special rules in your favor, assuming you know what to look for. Some Objectives to consider:
Advanced Gunnery: This will give Ackbar the Gunnery teams he needs, but consider that your Star Destroyer as second player can target the same arc with a second shot. Really useful if you've set up overload pulse and have the Avenger, or XI7s with some accuracy to lock out brace.
Minefields: with complete domination of the terrain step of setup, you could create a condition that forces his ships to fly through minefields or obstacles to reach your ships. Set up at speed 1, bank two navigation commands at start, and wait for them to come to you. In the very least you're dictating they take engineering for the first few turns as they are flying though the mines.
Fire Lanes: There is no restriction saying you can't stack them in the same spot. Even if the enemy moves them there's a good chance that you can slow-roll and dominate these tokens on the advance, racking up enough points to equate the loss of a Star Destroyer in the endgame. I did this against a two MC80 list, and though I lost my ISD and was close to losing my VSDs, I had accumulated an embarrassing amount of points.
Most Wanted: being able to choose both ships means their most valuable ship is easier to take out and worth more points when you do. While you can designate your expendable Raider for only a fraction of the worth.
Fleet Ambush: This can force the opponent to deploy out of formation, forcing one ship at the rear while presenting the other two as easy targets.
Hyperspace Assault: If you have a queued up Gladiator or VSD-I with expanded launchers, you can hyperspace it out into the forward arc of that MC80 and let it rip. The MC80 will never be able to turn to avoid you, while you're pummeling it with your best arcs.
So... there are other ways to win beyond brute force on the battlefield.
@Norsehound.. Thanks for all of your suggestions!
I have more points than he and he typically chooses to go second. He always chooses Most Wanted and I only previously had 2 ISDs (I officially like the idea of bringing 1+ Raiders into the fight with me for this purpose), and I would be forced to choose my non-flagship and he would light it up...
I'm wondering how resilient people are finding their Raiders. I do have a five-ship list with ISD/GSD/RD I want to try (using screed for OP and ACM fun), but I'm wary of what the Ackbar broadsides can kill with enough dice if you position wrong. It's why I've been leaning on VSDs and ISDs... at least I can tank damage if there was no avoiding it trying to attack an awake MC80 driver. The arcs are wide on the 80...
Utterly garbage as tank. No redirect means you only need 2 + 4 damage + accuracy to kill one. Which, as you know, is easily doable with one Ackbar shot. Single.
On the other hand, ive seen a raider weather 3 at medium range, but couldnt really block the conga line without being exposed to the other side arcs, and died quite fast.
What kind of objectives are you using? And are you going first or second?
Going first sucks until you're in engagement range, where you should (in theory) be able to knock out ships before they have the chance to fire. You could also hit him with certain Ion cannons early to benefit with later in the turn.
Going second though gives you the advantage of having objectives on your side and the first-shot advantage as the enemy is coming into range. Here is where you can bend some of the special rules in your favor, assuming you know what to look for. Some Objectives to consider:
Advanced Gunnery: This will give Ackbar the Gunnery teams he needs, but consider that your Star Destroyer as second player can target the same arc with a second shot. Really useful if you've set up overload pulse and have the Avenger, or XI7s with some accuracy to lock out brace.
Minefields: with complete domination of the terrain step of setup, you could create a condition that forces his ships to fly through minefields or obstacles to reach your ships. Set up at speed 1, bank two navigation commands at start, and wait for them to come to you. In the very least you're dictating they take engineering for the first few turns as they are flying though the mines.
Fire Lanes: There is no restriction saying you can't stack them in the same spot. Even if the enemy moves them there's a good chance that you can slow-roll and dominate these tokens on the advance, racking up enough points to equate the loss of a Star Destroyer in the endgame. I did this against a two MC80 list, and though I lost my ISD and was close to losing my VSDs, I had accumulated an embarrassing amount of points.
Most Wanted: being able to choose both ships means their most valuable ship is easier to take out and worth more points when you do. While you can designate your expendable Raider for only a fraction of the worth.
Fleet Ambush: This can force the opponent to deploy out of formation, forcing one ship at the rear while presenting the other two as easy targets.
Hyperspace Assault: If you have a queued up Gladiator or VSD-I with expanded launchers, you can hyperspace it out into the forward arc of that MC80 and let it rip. The MC80 will never be able to turn to avoid you, while you're pummeling it with your best arcs.
So... there are other ways to win beyond brute force on the battlefield.
If he's running Slaved Turrets then isn't Advanced Gunnery pretty much useless for him?
What kind of objectives are you using? And are you going first or second?
Going first sucks until you're in engagement range, where you should (in theory) be able to knock out ships before they have the chance to fire. You could also hit him with certain Ion cannons early to benefit with later in the turn.
Going second though gives you the advantage of having objectives on your side and the first-shot advantage as the enemy is coming into range. Here is where you can bend some of the special rules in your favor, assuming you know what to look for. Some Objectives to consider:
Advanced Gunnery: This will give Ackbar the Gunnery teams he needs, but consider that your Star Destroyer as second player can target the same arc with a second shot. Really useful if you've set up overload pulse and have the Avenger, or XI7s with some accuracy to lock out brace.
Minefields: with complete domination of the terrain step of setup, you could create a condition that forces his ships to fly through minefields or obstacles to reach your ships. Set up at speed 1, bank two navigation commands at start, and wait for them to come to you. In the very least you're dictating they take engineering for the first few turns as they are flying though the mines.
Fire Lanes: There is no restriction saying you can't stack them in the same spot. Even if the enemy moves them there's a good chance that you can slow-roll and dominate these tokens on the advance, racking up enough points to equate the loss of a Star Destroyer in the endgame. I did this against a two MC80 list, and though I lost my ISD and was close to losing my VSDs, I had accumulated an embarrassing amount of points.
Most Wanted: being able to choose both ships means their most valuable ship is easier to take out and worth more points when you do. While you can designate your expendable Raider for only a fraction of the worth.
Fleet Ambush: This can force the opponent to deploy out of formation, forcing one ship at the rear while presenting the other two as easy targets.
Hyperspace Assault: If you have a queued up Gladiator or VSD-I with expanded launchers, you can hyperspace it out into the forward arc of that MC80 and let it rip. The MC80 will never be able to turn to avoid you, while you're pummeling it with your best arcs.
So... there are other ways to win beyond brute force on the battlefield.
If he's running Slaved Turrets then isn't Advanced Gunnery pretty much useless for him?
What he said ^
@Norsehound.. Thanks for all of your suggestions!
I have more points than he and he typically chooses to go second. He always chooses Most Wanted and I only previously had 2 ISDs (I officially like the idea of bringing 1+ Raiders into the fight with me for this purpose), and I would be forced to choose my non-flagship and he would light it up...
It looks as though he is taking second player and picking the objective? If so, that is not how it works, the first player picks the objective from the second player's objective pool.
Edited by chrisrivers
I'm wondering how resilient people are finding their Raiders. I do have a five-ship list with ISD/GSD/RD I want to try (using screed for OP and ACM fun), but I'm wary of what the Ackbar broadsides can kill with enough dice if you position wrong. It's why I've been leaning on VSDs and ISDs... at least I can tank damage if there was no avoiding it trying to attack an awake MC80 driver. The arcs are wide on the 80...
Utterly garbage as tank. No redirect means you only need 2 + 4 damage + accuracy to kill one. Which, as you know, is easily doable with one Ackbar shot. Single.
On the other hand, ive seen a raider weather 3 at medium range, but couldnt really block the conga line without being exposed to the other side arcs, and died quite fast.
Tank by means of having more hull and shields than the GSD/RDR... but it's becoming clear that no defensive slot is too great of a flaw, over the maneuverability advantages given by the GSD and RDR. Unless of course I use them as carriers with boosted comms to direct Rhymer balls from across the map.
If he's running Slaved Turrets then isn't Advanced Gunnery pretty much useless for him?
Of course it would be. When I was making those objective selections, I didnt think of exact composition beyond AF-MC80-AF or multiple AF ships.
It looks as though he is taking second player and picking the objective? If so, that is not how it works, the first player picks the objective from the second player's objective pool.
Indeed, first player must pick from the second player's objective pool. And here you have to try selecting, if not the least dangerous objective, then one that you won't have a problem taking. Dangerous Territory is a lot safer than Advanced Gunnery for instance, same goes for Superior positions. If you can remember his objectives Gold, I'd be happy to give my thoughts on what's the least dangerous to an ISD-VSD list.
I am working on a strategy guide on BGG for how to take and how to deal with Objectives. I guess I should try to finish that soon, at least to share some thinking on that subject.
Edited by Norsehound