For the moment, the only rules I use for dual-wielding are specifically for the Shoto lightsaber. I allow the Shoto wielded in the offhand to provide Defensive 1, instead of Accurate 1. It's an optional trade off that the player must mandate ahead of time.

I'm still considering the Weaponmaster specialization, but I'm trying to be very careful to maintain system balance.

Sorry I honestly didn't mean to start something. Thank you for the answers to my questions.

I've run the math - in order to make it worthwhile at all, you really need attribute or skill 4, and the other at at least 2.

So, generally, you want YYGG vs PPP, or better. It was VERY effective in play at YYYGGWW vs PPP... frighteningly so. (Use them Force powers!)...

If you want a defensive boost from using two-weapon combat, just use the guarded stance maneuver, which grants +1 melee defense (so it'll stack with any Defensive Training talents you've got).

Yes, it adds a setback die to your own combat pool, but as aramis noted, you generally need to be a highly capable combatant to make two-weapon combat viable in general. Though further up-thread I did not some already existing rules in the system to make the job easier, with the Paired attachment being one of the easiest and least expensive to acquire.

One thing they did get right is it is very difficult to two weapon fight. But when you get more skill it becomes very effective. And talents do fill the defensive stuff very well.

How about mods on duel wielded sabers? Curved hilt gives you +1 adv, and you can ad +1 Defensive. If you are fighting with 2 of these, would you get +2 adv and +2 Defensive?

Yesterday, my Niman Disciple used for the first time dual wield lightsabers.

Both had basic Ilum crystals with mods for -1 to Crit and +1 dam, Superior and Paired Weapons for : Dam 7, Crit 1, Breach, Sunder, Superior, Paired Weapons.

She has 4 Willpower, 2 Lightsaber and 3 Force Rating.... I was unfortunately infected with an illness so I had to upgrade my difficulty once for every roll.

So most of the time, I rolled YYGGWWWRPP with some defense or adversary from time to time.

I used that attack maybe 4 or 5 times... each time I was able to trigger my off-hand lightsaber, trigger at least 1 crit. Doing from 16 to 24 damage each time.

My fellow players told me it was OP

Great fun for the last game I played with that character.

At this point I've decided to treat dual wielding as a variant of saber-swarm.

At this point I've decided to treat dual wielding as a variant of saber-swarm.

Why would you do that ???

Saber-swarm is a 20xp talent that gives Linked equal to FR for 1 maneuver and 1 strain.

Dual wielding increases difficulty by 1 (for dual lightsabers) and allows a second hit with the off-hand weapon for 2 advantages.

Double-bladed Lightsaber has linked 1 (and unwielding 3) for double costs on all attachments (including crystals) and requires 2 advantages to trigger.

Each have it's advantages and disadvantages, but they are all different enough to choose the one you really like.

Let's break them off a little to evaluate the ups and downs.

- Saber-swarm :

- costs 20xp talent in Ataru Striker spec only

- costs 1 maneuver and 1 strain

- always costs 2 advantages for subsequent hits

+ uses only 1 hand

+ doesn't increase difficulty

+ allows Linked up to FR (allowing 2 to 4 hits on average)

Requires only 1 Lightsaber

- cannot have 2 different crystals to benefit from different bonus

+ costs less money

- Dual Wielding combat

- increases difficulty by 1

- allows only 1 additional hit

- uses both hands

+ can use Paired Weapons attachment to reduce second hit difficulty to 1 advantage

+ doesn't costs strain or maneuver

Require 2 Lightsabers

- costs more money (double crystals, attachments and mos)

+ can have different crystals to have special bonus (main hand -> hit and damage ; off-hand -> crit and vicious)

- Double-bladed Lightsaber

- allows only 1 additional hit

- uses both hands

- unwielding 3

- always costs 2 advantages for 2nd hit

+ doesn't costs strain or maneuver

+ doesn't increase difficulty to hit

Requires Double-bladed Lightsaber

- costs more money (requires 2 crystals and double costs on attachments)

- cannot have 2 different crystals to benefit from different bonus

As I said, they are all different but each has it's ups and downs.

You have to choose what's best for your character.

Anyway... try it raw before changing the game... you'll find out that it's not that bad in the long run...

At this point I've decided to treat dual wielding as a variant of saber-swarm.

Why would you do that ???

Anyway... try it raw before changing the game... you'll find out that it's not that bad in the long run...

Because I'm not you? Because I view mechanics as being a means to a narrative effect rather than an end in of themselves? And, that's a big assumption your making there Sonny Jim. How do you know I didn't run it RAW first? Or that I'm not aware of the details you posted? Arrogant much? Take a step back and chill out that other people don't share your RAW fetish. Also, I said as "a variant of" without specific details of how it would be applied, what it would cost, what requisites would exist, etc. So, you don't actually know how it would work at my table, do you?

Because I'm not you? Because I view mechanics as being a means to a narrative effect rather than an end in of themselves? And, that's a big assumption your making there Sonny Jim. How do you know I didn't run it RAW first? Or that I'm not aware of the details you posted? Arrogant much? Take a step back and chill out that other people don't share your RAW fetish. Also, I said as "a variant of" without specific details of how it would be applied, what it would cost, what requisites would exist, etc. So, you don't actually know how it would work at my table, do you?

Then why don't you enlighten us ?!?

Why don't you give details instead of forcing us to make assumptions.... what are the cost and requisites ? how does it work at your table ?

Yesterday, my Niman Disciple used for the first time dual wield lightsabers.

Both had basic Ilum crystals with mods for -1 to Crit and +1 dam, Superior and Paired Weapons for : Dam 7, Crit 1, Breach, Sunder, Superior, Paired Weapons.

She has 4 Willpower, 2 Lightsaber and 3 Force Rating.... I was unfortunately infected with an illness so I had to upgrade my difficulty once for every roll.

So most of the time, I rolled YYGGWWWRPP with some defense or adversary from time to time.

I used that attack maybe 4 or 5 times... each time I was able to trigger my off-hand lightsaber, trigger at least 1 crit. Doing from 16 to 24 damage each time.

My fellow players told me it was OP

Great fun for the last game I played with that character.

I'm confused, why are you rolling the 3 White (Force) die for a basic attack? Is this an affect from a Talent or a Force Power?

Yesterday, my Niman Disciple used for the first time dual wield lightsabers.

Both had basic Ilum crystals with mods for -1 to Crit and +1 dam, Superior and Paired Weapons for : Dam 7, Crit 1, Breach, Sunder, Superior, Paired Weapons.

She has 4 Willpower, 2 Lightsaber and 3 Force Rating.... I was unfortunately infected with an illness so I had to upgrade my difficulty once for every roll.

So most of the time, I rolled YYGGWWWRPP with some defense or adversary from time to time.

I used that attack maybe 4 or 5 times... each time I was able to trigger my off-hand lightsaber, trigger at least 1 crit. Doing from 16 to 24 damage each time.

My fellow players told me it was OP

Great fun for the last game I played with that character.

I'm confused, why are you rolling the 3 White (Force) die for a basic attack? Is this an affect from a Talent or a Force Power?

You do that with Draw Closer. You can also do it with hawk bat swoop. Draw closer you can spend pips on successes and hawk bat you can spend them on advantage.

You do that with Draw Closer. You can also do it with hawk bat swoop. Draw closer you can spend pips on successes and hawk bat you can spend them on advantage.

Well he specifically called out that he was a Niman user, so Hawk Bat Swoop makes no sense. He also used Willpower and not Agility in his example, so definitely not HBS.

Draw Closer makes more sense and fits the description. It's purpose is to pull a ranged enemy to you so you can get in melee range and attack. While there's no stipulation on it's frequency of use... I don't recall a single event in canon or Legends/EU where a force user pulled their target to them for every attack. Seems extremely meta to me. If your GM is cool with it, then enjoy!

I personally would restrict it's use to when an opponent is at Short range or greater. Same goes for Hawk Bat Swoop, you can't jump to someone if you're engaged in melee.

You do that with Draw Closer. You can also do it with hawk bat swoop. Draw closer you can spend pips on successes and hawk bat you can spend them on advantage.

Well he specifically called out that he was a Niman user, so Hawk Bat Swoop makes no sense. He also used Willpower and not Agility in his example, so definitely not HBS.

Draw Closer makes more sense and fits the description. It's purpose is to pull a ranged enemy to you so you can get in melee range and attack. While there's no stipulation on it's frequency of use... I don't recall a single event in canon or Legends/EU where a force user pulled their target to them for every attack. Seems extremely meta to me. If your GM is cool with it, then enjoy!

I personally would restrict it's use to when an opponent is at Short range or greater. Same goes for Hawk Bat Swoop, you can't jump to someone if you're engaged in melee.

I know that. Hence the calling out draw closer first. I just added that you can also do it with hawk Bat

Swoop.

I would not stipulate that for either of them as who is to say you aren't shoving them around with the force putting them off balance and using that to your advantage? Same for Hawkbat swoop as that simulates the acrobatic jumping around a target flanking them by jumping around the target?

I would not stipulate that for either of them as who is to say you aren't shoving them around with the force putting them off balance and using that to your advantage? Same for Hawkbat swoop as that simulates the acrobatic jumping around a target flanking them by jumping around the target?

You're more then welcome to use that interpretation. As to how I can say they're not shoving and pulling someone off-balance continuously throughout a fight, because it has never and very likely will never be done in the Star Wars universe. Using the Force takes concentration and focus, things that aren't continuously available in a melee fight. Force users in the Star Wars films/tv shows use the Force in combat by picking the right moments to use such abilities. Also, Draw Closer doesn't "push" someone away, it pulls them to you. It's pretty clearly defined in what it does and what it's primarily used for. Now application of Force Assault to use Move to toss the opponent away, and then Draw Closer again makes perfect sense.

As for Hawk Bat Swoop, that is a specific attack. The spinning and bouncing around that is Ataru style is simply the basic Ataru/Agility roll. That's why Ataru uses Agility, because of all the acrobatic maneuvers.

I can see though that small applications (DC to throw off balance, and HBS to flank someone) might be interesting. So I'll amend my thought to allowing occasional use of both at Engaged ranges. After all, Yoda only attempted to flank Dooku once in their fight. I've also never seen nor read of a fight where someone used Force Pull continuously either. So moderated use may be okay.

Actually the best example of someone doing this probably would come from Mara Jade as she was always 'creative' with her use of the force and lightsaber. As for the draw closer being used multiple times in a row it could be used in scenarios with minions where you have to yank them one at a time to you and disable them. In that scenario I could see it with a stealthy force user using it as a scare tactic.

As for why you might use it with the same opponent over and over. Well, based on my own little playing around with the dice app and the above example I just don't see it as very likely a rival would survive such an encounter. Nemesis probably would but in my opinion doing that action should only work once and the nemesis would have his own tactics to employ that would probably force that character back, injure them, or simply put the nemesis, who is now aware of that particular trick, he would use tactics to negate it. Such as tossing minions between him and the attacker or keeping in really good cover out of line of sight of that one attacker. Pretty hard but I also think the player shouldn't abuse that power unless he is the only one that can really do damage to the nemesis. We are all shiny individual snowflakes until the nemesis comes out then we are a party.

Since the wording for Draw Closer states that you "can use it within medium range" and that you "may spend a Force Pip to move the target closer", I believe that it can be used at Engaged range over and over again. The wording for Hawk Bat Swoop is the same and could also be used at Engaged range. Names of certain powers often mislead people, names are flavor, the description is what matters. For Hawk Bat Swoop and Draw Closer, it's just a Force enhanced attack.

That's my interpretation of the RAW.

I also believe that it was asked and debated a long time ago and it was the same overall consensus.

Anyway, i'll ask Sam and see what he thinks about it.

Kudos

I guess the other thing is that we've never really seen a Niman user do something exceptional; if I recall directly most of the master practitioners of that died in the Arena on Geonosis. It ultimately was too generalistic because most people who took it were more interested in using it as a bare necessarily form, preferring diplomacy to more rigorious marial training. I could well be wrong about that.

That being said, I can fully see a real strong user of the form using it like this. Considering we often see mild applications of force push. It's always worth talking about expectations before considering that route.

Personally I think that the PT fight coordinators should have watched and studied a broader array of both real martial arts and movie fights (more Bruce Lee, fools). The Force powers and the lightsaber combat could have been far more integrated, with less "OK, wait, stop, no more sabers for a minute, we're going to throw stuff at each other now, right?"

I guess the other thing is that we've never really seen a Niman user do something exceptional; if I recall directly most of the master practitioners of that died in the Arena on Geonosis. It ultimately was too generalistic because most people who took it were more interested in using it as a bare necessarily form, preferring diplomacy to more rigorious marial training. I could well be wrong about that.

That being said, I can fully see a real strong user of the form using it like this. Considering we often see mild applications of force push. It's always worth talking about expectations before considering that route.

You'd be correct about Niman in regards to the Legends lore, as it was specifically referred to as the "Diplomat's Form" since it didn't have nearly as heavy a focus or requirement for combat, thus allowing it's practitioners to spend their time on other studies, such as diplomatic training (hence the nickname). It was sufficient for dealing with routine problems like small groups of criminal or similar petty malcontents, but was woefully lacking when it came to more intensive combat situations, like a one-on-one duel or warfare conditions like the Geonosis arena battle. And around the time of the prequels but prior to the Clone Wars, most students didn't really even take the time to fully "master" the Form either, progressing just enough to be deemed "proficient" when it came time for their Trials. Once Niman's inadequacy in dealing with intense combat became highlighted, a lot of those Jedi who'd studied Niman probably switched to a more combat-viable Form or did their best to not get overwhelmed in combat ops by relying upon their Clone Troopers... which in turn probably lead to a lot of deaths when Order 66 came around and those same Jedi now found themselves facing down the very soldiers they'd relied upon for years.

The Force-based talents in the Niman Disciple tree would likely fall under the realm of "advanced study" that most students didn't bother with prior to the Clone Wars.

I guess the other thing is that we've never really seen a Niman user do something exceptional; if I recall directly most of the master practitioners of that died in the Arena on Geonosis. It ultimately was too generalistic because most people who took it were more interested in using it as a bare necessarily form, preferring diplomacy to more rigorious marial training. I could well be wrong about that.

That being said, I can fully see a real strong user of the form using it like this. Considering we often see mild applications of force push. It's always worth talking about expectations before considering that route.

You'd be correct about Niman in regards to the Legends lore, as it was specifically referred to as the "Diplomat's Form" since it didn't have nearly as heavy a focus or requirement for combat, thus allowing it's practitioners to spend their time on other studies, such as diplomatic training (hence the nickname). It was sufficient for dealing with routine problems like small groups of criminal or similar petty malcontents, but was woefully lacking when it came to more intensive combat situations, like a one-on-one duel or warfare conditions like the Geonosis arena battle. And around the time of the prequels but prior to the Clone Wars, most students didn't really even take the time to fully "master" the Form either, progressing just enough to be deemed "proficient" when it came time for their Trials. Once Niman's inadequacy in dealing with intense combat became highlighted, a lot of those Jedi who'd studied Niman probably switched to a more combat-viable Form or did their best to not get overwhelmed in combat ops by relying upon their Clone Troopers... which in turn probably lead to a lot of deaths when Order 66 came around and those same Jedi now found themselves facing down the very soldiers they'd relied upon for years.

The Force-based talents in the Niman Disciple tree would likely fall under the realm of "advanced study" that most students didn't bother with prior to the Clone Wars.

Aye, that summarised my thoughts on it most nicely, the Jedi had really let go of so much that made them proud protectors. So by the time war came, the republic was an unwieldy beast that would have simply crumbled; a theme that's been repeated many a time.

Since the wording for Draw Closer states that you "can use it within medium range" and that you "may spend a Force Pip to move the target closer", I believe that it can be used at Engaged range over and over again. The wording for Hawk Bat Swoop is the same and could also be used at Engaged range. Names of certain powers often mislead people, names are flavor, the description is what matters. For Hawk Bat Swoop and Draw Closer, it's just a Force enhanced attack.

That's my interpretation of the RAW.

I also believe that it was asked and debated a long time ago and it was the same overall consensus.

Anyway, i'll ask Sam and see what he thinks about it.

Kudos

I really like narrative games. They are "rules-lite" to allow both the players and GM to do things that rules-heavy games simply can't do. However, a little common sense is also occasionally warranted. For instance, can droids see illusions generated by Misdirect, what types of attacks are subject to Improved Reflect, does Reflect work against Unleash, etc. A lot of this is left up to individual GMs to hash out. The official FAQ on Misdirect vs droids was something like:

Misdirect can work on droids... unless your GM believes Misdirect is like Influence, then it doesn't. Also the Force does strange things at times and solid rules don't always work.

My point is, while the RAW may permit something to occur. It doesn't mean you shouldn't moderate it. I'll use a quote I recently saw from Donovan Morningfire in regards to Sum Djem:

Now, the whole idea of constantly using disarms, either the PC on their opponent or the opponent on the PC, shouldn't really be done. Save the disarming for a dramatic moment in the fight, not as a "go to" move every time you generate 3 Advantage on the combat check.

I view Draw Closer and Hawk Bat Swoop as special attacks, not your basic auto-attack. I understand that the RAW doesn't restrict their use. I simply feel a bit of restriction such as "when opponent is already Engaged, DC/HBS should be used in moderation for dramatic effects/moments" keeps the abilities interesting instead of a buffed auto-attack.

I guess the other thing is that we've never really seen a Niman user do something exceptional; if I recall directly most of the master practitioners of that died in the Arena on Geonosis. It ultimately was too generalistic because most people who took it were more interested in using it as a bare necessarily form, preferring diplomacy to more rigorious marial training. I could well be wrong about that.

That being said, I can fully see a real strong user of the form using it like this. Considering we often see mild applications of force push. It's always worth talking about expectations before considering that route.

Most Niman user's at Geonosis were not masters of the Niman style. Niman was well liked because it was easy to master the basics, which is what most Jedi Niman users did at the time. A proper master of Niman was Exar Kun. The comics/books show him being able to defeat several Jedi simultaneously. He was very strong with the Force. Yet we don't see him constantly use the Force to throw people off balance either. The Force Push/Pull attacks in Niman are meant to be timed for maximum effect, not the "go to" basic attack.

I understand what you are saying TalosX, but I feel that your opinion might be biased because it's a Lightsaber Form special move...

I'll throw together all the same talents... Draw Closer, Hawk Bat Swoop, Makashi Finish, Disruptive Strike.

Why would I not use Makashi Finish on the first hit I do to cripple the opponent with a High number critical, and then finish him off with another hit with Makashi Finish the next round for another devastating critical hit ?

Why would I not use Disruptive Strike on every round to make sure my opponent has plenty of stacked Fail to never hit me ?

On a lesser note...

Would you ask a muggle to only use his special abilities only for those special moments ?

Why would they not use, if they had the ressources (maneuver, strain, etc.), those talents like Intense Focus, True Aim, Improved Hunter's Quarry, Rain of Death, Guns Blazing or even Corellian Sendoff ??

I think the best talent to compare it is Intuitive Shot from the Seeker Hunter spec. You add Force Dice equal to Force Rating to your Ranged (Light or Heavy) and then may spend Pips for Success or Advantages.
It's the same thing has DC or HBS, even more powerfull because you can choose either Success or Advantages. Why would the Hunter not use that Talent every rounds ?

I understand what you are saying, and I completely agree with you about the Narrative in the game, but I feel that you're asking the Jedi to gimp himself because of the name of the talent.

Anyway, I understand how you see it, I feel the opposite.

Also you have to think of the culture and belief system of the Jedi. Look at the Jedi Code look at what Obi-Wan and Yoda described the Force to Luke. It is in all living things it surrounds us and binds the universe together. The Force gives a Jedi his power. If you are out to destroy the thing that gives you power if it is counter-intuitive. Now that is a Jedi point of view and that what it comes down to really 'a certain point of view'. Could Obi-Wan in Episode 2 slice the bounty hunter in half instead of just taking her arm. In that case yes he wanted to question her and get his answers. What about Episode 4 though couldn't he easily slice and dice that Aqualish thug with ease? Why didn't he? His belief system didn't allow him. What about Luke in Return of the Jedi he didn't have complete instruction but he used Force Choke against the Gamorreans but we never got that audible crack which leads me to believe he didn't kill the two guards. What about all the guys who were attacking him he could of easily probably saber thrown the ones that tried to hit him and run away, why didn't he cut them down? Again I believe it comes down to instruction and belief. Heavy handed tactics, killing those who get in your way, or blatantly abusing one's power for the sake that you can? That is Imperial doctrine and most of the characters in Force and Destiny are standing up against such acts. They are trying to show a better way a more Jedi way. That is my 'point of view' which is why my character often hangs back and doesn't try to take the lead even though I am probably 'more powerful' as a Force Wielder than my companions. Might doesn't make right.