Yes and all those 2 wounds you inflict on 3 people are really going to hurt..

As opposed to inflicting a single +60 crit before the poor Nemesis can even act....

Spitfire is not as good as people think mostly because there aren't a whole lot of 10 damage pistols out there as opposed to sorry about the mess that can turn nemesi into paste with a crit that can boggle the mind.

Let me further explain why spitfire on a lightsaber is useless. The lightsaber is an engaged range weapon how often are you going to be engaged with multiple idiots who think attacking the guy with the glowy stick of death in melee combat is a good idea?

So a Gadgeteer can spend 15 xp and pick up a light repeating blaster and be essentially good at mowing people down with each hit being 1 advantage at up to long range.

Your lightsaber wielding dude will need 75 xp to do something far worse at only engaged range.

So while your spending 75 xp just to do something crappier then the Gadgeteer he's spending that extra 60 xp on Ranged Heavy...

To be really good at it your going to have to spend another 50 xp to get force leap all kitted out. which lets him buy up dedicated now he's got at least a 4 agility armor master and a 4 ranged heavy...

My point is simple Spitfire is not worth the cost to buy it,

Yes and all those 2 wounds you inflict on 3 people are really going to hurt..

As opposed to inflicting a single +60 crit before the poor Nemesis can even act....

Spitfire is not as good as people think mostly because there aren't a whole lot of 10 damage pistols out there as opposed to sorry about the mess that can turn nemesi into paste with a crit that can boggle the mind.

Let me further explain why spitfire on a lightsaber is useless. The lightsaber is an engaged range weapon how often are you going to be engaged with multiple idiots who think attacking the guy with the glowy stick of death in melee combat is a good idea?

So a Gadgeteer can spend 15 xp and pick up a light repeating blaster and be essentially good at mowing people down with each hit being 1 advantage at up to long range.

Your lightsaber wielding dude will need 75 xp to do something far worse at only engaged range.

So while your spending 75 xp just to do something crappier then the Gadgeteer he's spending that extra 60 xp on Ranged Heavy...

To be really good at it your going to have to spend another 50 xp to get force leap all kitted out. which lets him buy up dedicated now he's got at least a 4 agility armor master and a 4 ranged heavy...

My point is simple Spitfire is not worth the cost to buy it,

Well I think Spitfire for the Gunslinger is good (not gamebreaking but good), but you're right about the lightsaber variant. It is pretty rare for someone wielding a lightsaber to have more then 1 opponent in Engaged range. I'm a major proponent for ensuring Jar'Kai isn't gamebreaking and even I agree with this issue. So the question is, what else could we offer Jar'Kai specialists that would be interesting and flavorful?

I like spit fire VAriant for jarkai. A force user can likely make it useful with enhance.

Yes and all those 2 wounds you inflict on 3 people are really going to hurt..

As opposed to inflicting a single +60 crit before the poor Nemesis can even act....

Spitfire is not as good as people think mostly because there aren't a whole lot of 10 damage pistols out there as opposed to sorry about the mess that can turn nemesi into paste with a crit that can boggle the mind.

Let me further explain why spitfire on a lightsaber is useless. The lightsaber is an engaged range weapon how often are you going to be engaged with multiple idiots who think attacking the guy with the glowy stick of death in melee combat is a good idea?

So a Gadgeteer can spend 15 xp and pick up a light repeating blaster and be essentially good at mowing people down with each hit being 1 advantage at up to long range.

Your lightsaber wielding dude will need 75 xp to do something far worse at only engaged range.

So while your spending 75 xp just to do something crappier then the Gadgeteer he's spending that extra 60 xp on Ranged Heavy...

To be really good at it your going to have to spend another 50 xp to get force leap all kitted out. which lets him buy up dedicated now he's got at least a 4 agility armor master and a 4 ranged heavy...

My point is simple Spitfire is not worth the cost to buy it,

Well I think Spitfire for the Gunslinger is good (not gamebreaking but good), but you're right about the lightsaber variant. It is pretty rare for someone wielding a lightsaber to have more then 1 opponent in Engaged range. I'm a major proponent for ensuring Jar'Kai isn't gamebreaking and even I agree with this issue. So the question is, what else could we offer Jar'Kai specialists that would be interesting and flavorful?

Let the Jedi spend 2 advantage to take a maneuver between the two hits. This counts as a maneuver for the round.

After thinking a bit about it, I made a second version .

I would drop both improved reflect and improved parry. These make this form a why would I not take this lightsaber form. Nothing in Jar Kai makes it sound like they would have either of these. at best just another rank of either parry or reflect. I would leave deadly accuracy.

Check version 2 (scroll down a bit). I removed Deadly Accuracy because it's a really good talent, and none of the current Lightsaber specs have it, so I would keep it away for now.

I personally would keep the Jar'Kai talent but not give a version like spitfire. The Jar'Kai talent gives two weapon sabers what they need, but without the spitfire version which would make those op worries. Personally would keep improved parry and reflect instead

Why are you worried about a engaged version of spitfire?

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

Saber throw at two separate people?

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

I'm currently working on putting together a Weapon Master specialization. If will be a universal force specialization. The plan is for the middle 2 columns to provide additional Parry/Reflect talents. Improved Parry and Improved Reflect will represent the pinnacle of each tier. The outer columns will each be devoted to a specialty combat. One column will focus on Jar'Kai, and the other will focus on single saber combat. I'm mostly done, I'm just trying to think of a unique talent or 2 for the single saber column.

Yes and all those 2 wounds you inflict on 3 people are really going to hurt..

As opposed to inflicting a single +60 crit before the poor Nemesis can even act....

Spitfire is not as good as people think mostly because there aren't a whole lot of 10 damage pistols out there as opposed to sorry about the mess that can turn nemesi into paste with a crit that can boggle the mind.

Let me further explain why spitfire on a lightsaber is useless. The lightsaber is an engaged range weapon how often are you going to be engaged with multiple idiots who think attacking the guy with the glowy stick of death in melee combat is a good idea?

So a Gadgeteer can spend 15 xp and pick up a light repeating blaster and be essentially good at mowing people down with each hit being 1 advantage at up to long range.

Your lightsaber wielding dude will need 75 xp to do something far worse at only engaged range.

So while your spending 75 xp just to do something crappier then the Gadgeteer he's spending that extra 60 xp on Ranged Heavy...

To be really good at it your going to have to spend another 50 xp to get force leap all kitted out. which lets him buy up dedicated now he's got at least a 4 agility armor master and a 4 ranged heavy...

My point is simple Spitfire is not worth the cost to buy it,

Ummm you haven't really considered how Spitfire works have you? Normal autofire. Target hardest target additional hits can hit easier target. Spit Fire Target easier target. Additional hits can be applied to anyone. So that difficult to hit Nemesis with Adversary 3? Target the easy to hit minion and apply a hit to the hard to hit nemesis. Makes the talent pretty cool doesn't it?

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

I'm currently working on putting together a Weapon Master specialization. If will be a universal force specialization. The plan is for the middle 2 columns to provide additional Parry/Reflect talents. Improved Parry and Improved Reflect will represent the pinnacle of each tier. The outer columns will each be devoted to a specialty combat. One column will focus on Jar'Kai, and the other will focus on single saber combat. I'm mostly done, I'm just trying to think of a unique talent or 2 for the single saber column.

Interested in seeing when complete

I guess it's time to deactivate the cloaking device and exit lurking mode.

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

I'm currently working on putting together a Weapon Master specialization. If will be a universal force specialization. The plan is for the middle 2 columns to provide additional Parry/Reflect talents. Improved Parry and Improved Reflect will represent the pinnacle of each tier. The outer columns will each be devoted to a specialty combat. One column will focus on Jar'Kai, and the other will focus on single saber combat. I'm mostly done, I'm just trying to think of a unique talent or 2 for the single saber column.

I just wanted to say that I really like your idea of also including a focus on single saber combat. I don't think this game has done the best job of explaining through the rules why pretty much all the top lightsaber fighters in canon use a single saber (Anakin/Vader, Obi-Wan, Sidious, Dooku, Windu, Yoda, etc) because it's just downright better to use two sabers (or a double bladed one), and none of these characters would have had any trouble getting their hands on that as PC's in this era might have. Someone like Anakin has even used two sabers multiple times and still he always went back to using one.

It feels like the game is pushing the "efficient player" into being far more of the unique snowflake than a force user in this era already is.

After thinking a bit about it, I made a second version .

I would drop both improved reflect and improved parry. These make this form a why would I not take this lightsaber form. Nothing in Jar Kai makes it sound like they would have either of these. at best just another rank of either parry or reflect. I would leave deadly accuracy.

Check version 2 (scroll down a bit). I removed Deadly Accuracy because it's a really good talent, and none of the current Lightsaber specs have it, so I would keep it away for now.

I personally would keep the Jar'Kai talent but not give a version like spitfire. The Jar'Kai talent gives two weapon sabers what they need, but without the spitfire version which would make those op worries. Personally would keep improved parry and reflect instead

Why are you worried about a engaged version of spitfire?

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

Why? do you assume Jedi only learn one form? I don't I see Jar Kai as an add on form in its self.

I don't see jedi having to take one of two forms to reflect shots. Maybe not every form but at least half of them should have it. It's forcing players to take one of two forms to get improved reflect even if that isn't the form for them but improved reflect does. It's limiting and this one aspect of the system to me doesn't fit

Lightsaber forms are all supplemental and expanded universe. Said material does say that many Jedi study multiple forms. Actually, one Jedi is awful at Reflect, and Jango kills him in AotC.

I don't see jedi having to take one of two forms to reflect shots. Maybe not every form but at least half of them should have it. It's forcing players to take one of two forms to get improved reflect even if that isn't the form for them but improved reflect does. It's limiting and this one aspect of the system to me doesn't fit

Giving up ver form both improved reflect and party renders Soresu a very bad choice. Each form except Soresu comes with a very strong attack skill. Soresu trades the very strong attack skill for the ability to use improved reflect and parry in the same talent tree.

Lightsaber forms are all supplemental and expanded universe. Said material does say that many Jedi study multiple forms. Actually, one Jedi is awful at Reflect, and Jango kills him in AotC.

Except the Forms are mentioned in "The Clone Wars" and "Star Wars Rebels". Which makes them canon according to the owners of LucasArts. So the Forms are not just EU/Legends, they are part of the canon now. At least until Disney makes another change.

Since Jar Kai is based on Niman, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a signature ability?

Since Jar Kai is based on Niman, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a signature ability?

that would be too limiting. Should gunslinger just be a signature ability?

Since Jar Kai is based on Niman, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a signature ability?

that would be too limiting. Should gunslinger just be a signature ability?

Also Signature Abilities are designed completely different. They tend to be one-shot abilities for the most part that add some real strong affects while active. Wielding two lightsabers doesn't really fit that concept. We need to remember that Jar'Kai isn't a Form, it's just a specialty skill set. All Jedi practiced a Form, and then used Jar'Kai in conjunction with that Form.

Fun fact though, Jar'Kai isn't based on Niman. Niman was created using bits and pieces from Forms I-V, and a dual-sword style practiced by the Royale Macheteros (which was named Jar'Kai). The reason Niman and Jar'Kai are tied together is they share many principles in stances. It's why many Jedi who desired to practice dual-lightsabers was required to learn the basics of Niman first. After that, they could adapt their Jar'Kai specialty to any of the other Forms. However, Niman always had more Jar'Kai users then any other Form.

If gunslinger has a place then Jar'Kai does and not as a signature ability

I've bypassed this little delema with atrau striker since it goes off agility and force rating to allow linked quality on a saber.

I'm not but more people believe spitfire is op then a talent that just lowers difficulty. Plus I think Jar'Kai should have improved Parry and reflect, but honestly feel all lightsaber forms should have improved Parry and improved reflect.

I'm currently working on putting together a Weapon Master specialization. If will be a universal force specialization. The plan is for the middle 2 columns to provide additional Parry/Reflect talents. Improved Parry and Improved Reflect will represent the pinnacle of each tier. The outer columns will each be devoted to a specialty combat. One column will focus on Jar'Kai, and the other will focus on single saber combat. I'm mostly done, I'm just trying to think of a unique talent or 2 for the single saber column.

Please share this when you are done.

I'm late to the party on this one... Catching up I have a few quick comments...

Decorus -> In my FnD table top game, I have house ruled that saber forms are universal to force users, we started knight level, and a few hundred XP in a good chunk of the party is working on a second saber form. Half of them took Niman (cause it's got a Force Rating!) and others who took a defensive tree to start picked up an offensive tree to balance and one guy bought a defensive tree to go with Ataru.

Blackbird888 -> I kinda like that Jar'kai tree of yours, and I may try and play test it when my game comes off the holiday hiatus.

Talos X -> I look forward to seeing your weaponmaster tree.

Now, to contribute something (I hope)...

Fundamentally, there is one and only one thing I need from a Jar'Kai tree. For the love of Palpatine, just give me an efficient way of getting to "Improved Quickdraw" that doesn't mean I have to buy a tree that either doesn't have parry and/or reflect or doesn't have a Force Rating. When that new lightsaber mod in Keeping the Peace came out (Apologies, I don't have the book yet, but two of my players do and they want so many goodies from it.) I had hoped that maybe if you had that mod there would be some way to re-jigger it with "improved quickdraw" so you can have both sabers in hand, or if both weapons had it, or one weapon had it and the character has the talent from a tree like Ataru, you could use your quick draw on the one, and the mod's quick draw on the other...

I am totally fine with the 3P difficulty. I am totally fine with eating a hard point on both sabers to pair them to get linked cheaper (though a talent to give lightsabers paired would be neat... not a "must have" but I would let it sit with me at lunch in high school.)

Something I think would be neat to see without stepping on Sarlacc Sweep's toes is a crowd clearing sort of talent. Shooting from the hip here, so I'm not married to this, but try it on for size...

Jar'Kai Whirlwind

Activation: Active (Action)

Ranked: No

Force Talent. The character may suffer 4 strain to take a Jar'Kai Whirlwind action, making a Lightsaber combat check if they are wielding two or more lightsabers with +1 difficulty (on top of the +1 from dual wielding) against one engaged target. If this attack succeeds, the lightsaber loses the breach quality for this action but gains the blast quality equal to the lightsaber's base damage that can be activated for 2 advantages and may be activated a number of times equal to the number of lightsabers currently being wielded. This blast damage will ignore any allies in range, including the character using this action. A despair can be used to allow allies to be hit. When performing the Jar'Kai Whirlwind action, the charcter must always target the opponent with the highest difficulty and defense... yadda yadda like Sarlacc Sweep.

You lose the breach for balance, and that means Sarlacc Sweep is better for taking on two or more bigguns at once while this lets you mow through minion packs like a Jedi Salad Shooter ("it makes thousands of Julienne Stormtroopers! but you gottta hit those suckers just right...") You must have at least two lightsabers, and quite frankly if someone is playing something with four arms, has four lightsabers and can generate 8 advantage, I would be willing to let them have that giant hit. They earned it at that point. It's a neat trick, but it's only useful in specific circumstances, and the price is high to even attempt to get this thing to go off. I would put this somewhere on the 20 XP or 25 XP row of talents for a jar'Kai tree.

Anyway, like I said, just shooting from the hip, there.

The only canon use of two handed light sabering is when Annakin used Ataru against Dooku in the movie with two lightsabers.

Niman is part of the Consular Class which means its highly unlikely to get a two light saber spec or Signature ability.

The only canon use of two handed light sabering is when Annakin used Ataru against Dooku in the movie with two lightsabers.

Niman is part of the Consular Class which means its highly unlikely to get a two light saber spec or Signature ability.

Not true. The Clone Wars has Ventress, Sidious and I believe Maul, and an instance if Kit Fisto wielding two. And Pong Krell wielding two saberstaffs. Probably others I'm not recalling. And they you have Grievous in both the show and films on a technicality.

Career books have a tendency to add a little more diversity into a career; Jar'Kai with Consular works in that way, especially considering its ties to Niman.

The only canon use of two handed light sabering is when Annakin used Ataru against Dooku in the movie with two lightsabers.

Niman is part of the Consular Class which means its highly unlikely to get a two light saber spec or Signature ability.

Not true. The Clone Wars has Ventress, Sidious and I believe Maul, and an instance if Kit Fisto wielding two. And Pong Krell wielding two saberstaffs. Probably others I'm not recalling. And they you have Grievous in both the show and films on a technicality.

Career books have a tendency to add a little more diversity into a career; Jar'Kai with Consular works in that way, especially considering its ties to Niman.

Don't forget Obi-Won's amazing jar'kai use when he solo'd Maul and his brother Savage Opress.