The only canon use of two handed light sabering is when Annakin used Ataru against Dooku in the movie with two lightsabers.

Niman is part of the Consular Class which means its highly unlikely to get a two light saber spec or Signature ability.

Asoka uses two sabers in Rebels. And there was a lot of two sabers in oyher canon until canon became legends. Why are so many people up in arms about two weapon fighting.

Ahsoka's default style in Rebels and TCW , both stated canon, is two sabers.

As others have noted, canon material features many instances of characters fighting with multiple sabers; there's really NO grounds on which to object to it, and really, I don't think any grounds to restrict it to a single career or specialization.

Agreed and for record if I ever ran a game that didn't allow for two weapon fighting I would also outlaw no autofire, no force powers, no skills above 2, no players get starships, and no fun. Whatever my players style for their characters is allowed and I want a system that does the same.

Blackbird888 -> I kinda like that Jar'kai tree of yours, and I may try and play test it when my game comes off the holiday hiatus.

Drop me a line and lemme know how it works. Short of just doing some tests myself, I don't think my group would ever pick it up in the anywhere future.

The only canon use of two handed light sabering is when Annakin used Ataru against Dooku in the movie with two lightsabers.

Niman is part of the Consular Class which means its highly unlikely to get a two light saber spec or Signature ability.

Not true. The Clone Wars has Ventress, Sidious and I believe Maul, and an instance if Kit Fisto wielding two. And Pong Krell wielding two saberstaffs. Probably others I'm not recalling. And they you have Grievous in both the show and films on a technicality.

Career books have a tendency to add a little more diversity into a career; Jar'Kai with Consular works in that way, especially considering its ties to Niman.

Except name a single member of those who actually uses Niman or even studied it...

Obiwan uses Soresu and Shien mostly having abandoned Ataru after Qui Gon died.

Ahsoka was taught by Anakin who uses Shien and Ataru

Maul is Juyo all the way...

Ventress uses Juyo and Makashi

I'm still waiting for any canon examples of dual lightsabers that actually used Niman...

Another thing to remember about the LS Form specs is that they are ultimately "pieced together bits of information" on the classical Forms that the Jedi practiced in their heyday.

Since the core intent of FaD is to run games in an era where the lore of the Jedi is incredibly rare if not outright lost, this makes sense that many of the LS Form specs would seem "incomplete" in regards to what we see the Jedi of the prequels accomplish.

As for two-weapon combat in terms of lightsabers, given how often dual-wielding seems to show up, I'm starting to personally lean towards Jar'Kai not being a separate Form but rather a set of techniques that can be readily adapted to the other Forms. Which for the most part is covered already under the existing rules for two-weapon combat in the core rulebook.

Blackbird888 -> I kinda like that Jar'kai tree of yours, and I may try and play test it when my game comes off the holiday hiatus.

Drop me a line and lemme know how it works. Short of just doing some tests myself, I don't think my group would ever pick it up in the anywhere future.

Will do. The character that would use it is sitting on 40 xp going "what on earth do I do with this," and since that tree has some overlap with unranked stuff in Ataru, he can come in to the tree from a couple of angles, one of them being Saber Throw.

Another thing to remember about the LS Form specs is that they are ultimately "pieced together bits of information" on the classical Forms that the Jedi practiced in their heyday.

Since the core intent of FaD is to run games in an era where the lore of the Jedi is incredibly rare if not outright lost, this makes sense that many of the LS Form specs would seem "incomplete" in regards to what we see the Jedi of the prequels accomplish.

As for two-weapon combat in terms of lightsabers, given how often dual-wielding seems to show up, I'm starting to personally lean towards Jar'Kai not being a separate Form but rather a set of techniques that can be readily adapted to the other Forms. Which for the most part is covered already under the existing rules for two-weapon combat in the core rulebook.

Agreed. Given how many different "styles" of wielding multiple sabers we see in the movies, animated series, etc, I think it's best as an add-on to any particular style, and not something that's locked into a single "specialization.

Another thing to remember about the LS Form specs is that they are ultimately "pieced together bits of information" on the classical Forms that the Jedi practiced in their heyday.

Since the core intent of FaD is to run games in an era where the lore of the Jedi is incredibly rare if not outright lost, this makes sense that many of the LS Form specs would seem "incomplete" in regards to what we see the Jedi of the prequels accomplish.

As for two-weapon combat in terms of lightsabers, given how often dual-wielding seems to show up, I'm starting to personally lean towards Jar'Kai not being a separate Form but rather a set of techniques that can be readily adapted to the other Forms. Which for the most part is covered already under the existing rules for two-weapon combat in the core rulebook.

Except for the 50+ holocrons by different Jedi/Sith Battlemasters covering LS forms created throughout history. Granted, getting a hold of one of those holocrons would likely involve breaking into the former Jedi Temple on Coruscant (now the Emperor's Palace). So very nearly impossible.

TalosX,

Yes there may be holocrons, but as you said getting a hold of them is insanely difficult, and not something that can be safely assumed.

It's also a matter of what information the holocron possesses. There's been instances where holocrons have shown up that have a very limited reference pool of information available to access, so it's quite likely that there are holocrons that only cover the must fundamental basics of the classic Forms, if even that much.

It's also a matter of those Jedi who did survive being able to pass on what they knew. If a surviving Jedi was only a Padawan, then their knowledge of the Forms isn't likely to be very expansive, and it's going to be even less if they were merely an Initiate. Knights and particularly Masters should be as rare as hen's teeth, given they are either dead or in hiding.

Not saying there aren't methods for a Jedi student to learn more about the classic Forms, only that such information is so rare and so wide-spread that it could very well be the focus of an entire campaign arc to assemble all the associated lore and in so doing properly recreate just one of the seven Forms. Bit broad of a scope for a game where players and GMs may not really care about that and are willing to just accept that the LS Form specs represent the sum total of what knowledge is out there for PCs to learn in regards to lightsaber combat.

Let's think about this precedent thing for a second:

I didn't partake in the original beta, but we've had the rules for dual wielding since then, right? Maybe since alpha? Since the full release of EotE, at least. We've always had them, so any character concept that leans towards dual wielding is doable with little effort. If that was the end of it, then so be it. "Is there a spec for fighting with two weapons?" "No, but there are general rules for every character." End discussion.

But we have Gunslinger, which has a pair of talents specifically to make dual wielding more viable (by not increasing the difficulty) and adding an allowance (hitting more than one target). Also, these talents are only usable with Ranged (Light) weapons, not just two weapons in general.

So we have the general rule, and a specialization that adds to the rule, but only in one area, excluding melee fighters and/or the Force-sensitive lightsaber junkies. Seeing the frequent use of dual-wielding lightsabers in all lore, which FFG draws on liberally (and most certainly not just canon material), giving gun users a boost to their pistol slinging and not all the variety of melee combatants something similar seems like the that entire category of players are getting the shaft.

Whether or not it's called Jar'Kai or not is irrelevant to the idea of getting a melee counterpart to Gunslinger. At least one for all kinds of melee combat, if not one for just lightsabers and one for muggles with swords.

Restricting it to a signature ability would only make it less viable than just a regular specialization, but runs counter to how signature abilities actually work, which are mostly narrative and allow for some exceptional actions. Dual wielding isn't exceptional.

So that precedent is we already have a dual-wielding spec for one subset of character, so it's likely if not fair for their to be one for the other subset.

So that precedent is we already have a dual-wielding spec for one subset of character, so it's likely if not fair for their to be one for the other subset.

Is anyone really arguing that there shouldn't be any sort of dual-wielding spec for the melee crowd?

Maybe I've missed some posts in the thread, but the closest I've seen is to wonder if said spec needs to be tied exclusively to Jar'Kai, with recent canon painting what was once seen as a separate Form to be more of an adaptation and add-on to the existing Forms.

Could be a Warrior-related spec that focuses on two-weapon melee combat the way Gunslinger focuses on two-weapon pistol combat, one that's also not restricted to just lightsabers, but is viable for other melee weapons such as twin knives or twin swords or even adapting old-school sword'n'board to use the board more offensively (maybe not to Captain America levels, but certainly as more than just a defensive implement),

That entirely depends on the sources the writers draw from. Some say it's its own thing, others say it's a general term. I wouldn't actually be surprised if they marry both interpretations, as they seem to do.

I see the Two lightsaber things, both in the Clone wars and the game, as the Faddish thing to do.

It' was Kewl!! So everyone wanted to have a Jedi that did it. It was the Drizzt Do'Urden effect from the early days of AD&D. Everyone wanted to have a Drow that wielded two swords.

I can see this as easily becoming the OP Must Be abilities of the game.

To me, anything that becomes a must have in the game is something that is broken.

Lightsabers are already powerful in and of themselves. Two of them becomes killer. Adding talents that makes wielding two of them even More Powerful? Just becomes OP. People already complain about the Gunslinger being OP. A two Lightsaber Talent tree will make duel wielding Sabers a God-mode.

Sabers can already Duel wield without special tree... I think right now, I will personally avoid adding house ruled special talents for them.

SnowDragon's got a good point.

I remember when AotC came out, the number of Jedi PCs that wanted to dual-wield went up by a huge margin, with complaints about how the d20 system (the active Star Wars RPG of the time) made dual-wielding a less than optimal tactic, and that was with lightsabers that generally weren't as potent as FFG's version, or at the very least were unlikely to result in a One-Hit Kill against any target that wasn't an out-and-out mook.

Being able to score multiple hits on the same target with a Breach 1 weapon is a pretty big deal. Heck, it's pretty much a capstone talent for Ataru Striker (Saber Swarm, which required a maneuver and 1 strain to use) and I've had first hand experience of running a PC with that talent just decimating an opponent by virtue of simply having Linked 1 (other Force die was committed to Sense for the defense upgrades, otherwise it'd have been Linked 2 and even worse for the BBEG). Sarlacc Sweep gets pretty nasty as well, and that's autofire with a restriction of one hit per target.

Gunslinger is potent, but it's also limited to blaster pistols, which aren't nearly as potent as weapons in the Ranged (Heavy) category. Lightsabers are by far one of the most potent weapons in this game, especially if the character starts modifying the crystal or gets one of the higher quality crystals such as Krayt Dragon Pearl or Mephite.

The other potential risk I see is that a purely Jar'Kai spec runs the risk of offering too many ranks of Parry and Reflect, as well as Defensive Training. Niman Disciple is already pretty solid in that respect (3 each of Parry and Reflect, 2 of Defensive Training), so the combo of Niman Disciple with a Jar'Kai spec (especially if that Jar'Kai spec offers Improved Parry) could be worrisome. More so if this proposed Jar'Kai spec is flagged as a universal spec.

I think that having a dual-wielder spec that isn't limited to Lightsabers, and instead just makes dual-wielding in general a bit better, might work. Stuff like Quick Draw and Improved Quick Draw are fine (drawing two weapons at once makes sense), but the top-tier talents in Gunslinger will need to be carefully evaluated, since blaster pistols aren't nearly as devastating in combat as even a basic lightsaber tends to be.

The way I see it Dual-Wielding Lightsabers has the same advantages and disadvantages that it does in real life (ex. Katana and Wakazashi or Rapier and a Main gauche)

1. Harder to do: less maneuvering room

2. Better defense: due to the added steel/laser beam covering more of your vitals areas.

3. The chance of increased damage with another weapon.

Now the current Dual-Wielding rules handle most of this fine without a Spec Tree.

the only thing I would add is when Dual-Wielding Melee weapons you get a Defense bonus.

Well, here is my thought on a two lightsaber build. This was originally going to be in the Saga system during KotoR and I was going to build a guard shoto or shoto and lightsaber combo.

The main hand is the lightsaber and has as of right now an unmodded Dantari Crystal which will be used primarily as my attack weapon. Was also thinking of adding the training saber mod to this as my character has a fellow jedi on board who wishes to keep his skill up even though he more focused on Force abilities than lightsaber combat. The second is our ward who the group has been tasked to protect has just started showing aptitude in using the Force. I had my 'starting' lightsaber which I planned to give to her, it already has the training saber mod that we can take in and out. However, I see the training saber mod as an option to use as a subduing tool. I am curious if I could still use parry and reflect (just the basic not improved or supreme) while it is active?

My question is with the guard shoto or shoto. I was thinking of going full blown defense with a Lorridian Gemstone if I can get a hold of it and modding it with all the available mods focusing on Deflection first. Question 1: Since shoto's have the damage decrease would this apply to the lightsaber crystal. Not anywhere near a deal breaker I just want it in line with the rules. Question 2: If I use it in two handed combat but never intend to attack with it but use it in conjunction with say parry or reflect would I still need to increase my dice penalty because I am technically dual wielding? Again not a deal breaker just keeping in mind with the rules. Question 3: This is about minion rules do they each make an attack roll or is it a singular roll for the group? If it is the former do I strain multiple times to reflect or parry the attacks or even if it is the latter do I need to expend strain equal to the number of attacks? Again more a rules question than deal breaker.

Edit: Sorry forgot to include my viewpoint. If we look at how canon (movies and tv shows) indicate two lightsaber wielding it usually does not go well for the combatant. With the exception of Grevious, Ahsoka and a lot later Ventress two weapon fighting just doesn't go well. Examples: Anakin vs. Dooku Episode 2 Anakin had an advantage but quickly lost the saber then a limb. Darth Maul in both Episode 1 and later in the Clone Wars did not do all that well dual wielding either his double bladed or two sabers. Bariss versus Anakin in Clone Wars she just got overwhelmed by sheer force on that. Ventress and Ahsoka actually end up suffering from the same problem once they DO become good enough with two sabers that if one is loss their effectiveness actually goes down due to their reliance. The magnaguards from the movie didn't do too well but in Clone Wars they did okay with their staves. Finally the only character who did well for any length of time was Grevious and that was probably mostly due to his enhanced brawn.

Usually these things are accompanied by a reasoning behind it.

Though to answer your question; yes one can wield two lightsabers but use one exclusely for parry/deflect, shoto's damage increase applies to any mounted crystal and minon rules depends; they can either be a group or an individual. Groups always roll together and thus are treated as one enterity, except for cases which cite single/multiple duelist. So yes, you would deal with the minon group as one parry unless he decides to spilt up the groups (thus reducing the potency of their die pool)

Anakin was defeated because he was fighting one of the most skilled duelests of that era. He was just a padwan fighting in a style that he was unaccostomed to and thus was poorly matched to begin with. He had yet to acquire real experience against another duelist.

Darth Maul was doing really well against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and was able to fight evenly with both of them quite handily, and was able to defeat Qui-Gon with it. Yet he was shown to be perfectly capable with a single blade even in using it single form he was able to wield it like how I would imagine a lightsaber pike (using the long haft of the blade for max leverage). He was trained to use it in a multitude of ways depending on situation.

Magma Guards are non-force sensitive machines, it's only natural that they would serve as a formidable roadblock rather then a legitimate threat. Never going to be as good as a master, but good enough to deal with a lot of situations/buy time.

Grievous was specially designed to wield him, ironically he was the best example about why it didn't work too well against a seasoned maser, he only tends to fight in short bursts and flees when outmatched, in his last fight his advantage was cut down really quickly. That and Obi-wan was a trained Jedi master that focused on outlasting him. I would argue that he would also upgrade his check by 1 for every additional lightsaber, resulting in 2 red 1 purple min.

I find it odd that Grievous was one of the most successful Jedi-hunters ever, killed or at least defeated many Jedi, and yet because he eventually died fighting a Jedi who was wielding one saber, some people take this as "proof" that multiple sabers is inferior to a single saber.

Usually these things are accompanied by a reasoning behind it.

Though to answer your question; yes one can wield two lightsabers but use one exclusely for parry/deflect, shoto's damage increase applies to any mounted crystal and minon rules depends; they can either be a group or an individual. Groups always roll together and thus are treated as one enterity, except for cases which cite single/multiple duelist. So yes, you would deal with the minon group as one parry unless he decides to spilt up the groups (thus reducing the potency of their die pool)

Anakin was defeated because he was fighting one of the most skilled duelests of that era. He was just a padwan fighting in a style that he was unaccostomed to and thus was poorly matched to begin with. He had yet to acquire real experience against another duelist.

Darth Maul was doing really well against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and was able to fight evenly with both of them quite handily, and was able to defeat Qui-Gon with it. Yet he was shown to be perfectly capable with a single blade even in using it single form he was able to wield it like how I would imagine a lightsaber pike (using the long haft of the blade for max leverage). He was trained to use it in a multitude of ways depending on situation.

Magma Guards are non-force sensitive machines, it's only natural that they would serve as a formidable roadblock rather then a legitimate threat. Never going to be as good as a master, but good enough to deal with a lot of situations/buy time.

Grievous was specially designed to wield him, ironically he was the best example about why it didn't work too well against a seasoned maser, he only tends to fight in short bursts and flees when outmatched, in his last fight his advantage was cut down really quickly. That and Obi-wan was a trained Jedi master that focused on outlasting him. I would argue that he would also upgrade his check by 1 for every additional lightsaber, resulting in 2 red 1 purple min.

Having some experience with actually wielding 2 swords this is absolutely wrong. You do not use either for exclusively anything. That is the way to die. You block with whatever weapon is best to block with at the moment. You need to be able to switch either weapon from defense to attack and vice versa. And you need to use the advantage of the additional weapon. Meaning when you get good you are parrying at the same time you are attacking.

Ahhh, fair enough. I have no experience within swordfighting so that is appreciated! XD

Not sure quite where it would leave me on a machanical standpoint, would you then rule that you must use the weapon you are interacting with to gain the bonus? Because that's more what I was referring to when I made the comment.

Usually these things are accompanied by a reasoning behind it.

Though to answer your question; yes one can wield two lightsabers but use one exclusely for parry/deflect, shoto's damage increase applies to any mounted crystal and minon rules depends; they can either be a group or an individual. Groups always roll together and thus are treated as one enterity, except for cases which cite single/multiple duelist. So yes, you would deal with the minon group as one parry unless he decides to spilt up the groups (thus reducing the potency of their die pool)

Anakin was defeated because he was fighting one of the most skilled duelests of that era. He was just a padwan fighting in a style that he was unaccostomed to and thus was poorly matched to begin with. He had yet to acquire real experience against another duelist.

Darth Maul was doing really well against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and was able to fight evenly with both of them quite handily, and was able to defeat Qui-Gon with it. Yet he was shown to be perfectly capable with a single blade even in using it single form he was able to wield it like how I would imagine a lightsaber pike (using the long haft of the blade for max leverage). He was trained to use it in a multitude of ways depending on situation.

Magma Guards are non-force sensitive machines, it's only natural that they would serve as a formidable roadblock rather then a legitimate threat. Never going to be as good as a master, but good enough to deal with a lot of situations/buy time.

Grievous was specially designed to wield him, ironically he was the best example about why it didn't work too well against a seasoned maser, he only tends to fight in short bursts and flees when outmatched, in his last fight his advantage was cut down really quickly. That and Obi-wan was a trained Jedi master that focused on outlasting him. I would argue that he would also upgrade his check by 1 for every additional lightsaber, resulting in 2 red 1 purple min.

Having some experience with actually wielding 2 swords this is absolutely wrong. You do not use either for exclusively anything. That is the way to die. You block with whatever weapon is best to block with at the moment. You need to be able to switch either weapon from defense to attack and vice versa. And you need to use the advantage of the additional weapon. Meaning when you get good you are parrying at the same time you are attacking.

As stated the use of Duel-Weapon fighting is an defensive action.

With a Pistol/Blaster its a way of put in more lead/blaster bolts in the air forcing you opponent/s to take cover.

with a sword/lightsaber it provides more surface area to defend/attack with.

Now the use of the second weapon does tend to cause openings you can exploit for attack.

This is handled by the Two-weapon fighting rules already.

as to whether it needs its own tree, my answer would be no.

The current rules for two weapon fighting work fine but i would say need some modification

1. Still believe it needs a build in Defense Die

2. I think its to easy and should get two Difficulty Die

other then that it works fine to me.

Grievous was specially designed to wield him, ironically he was the best example about why it didn't work too well against a seasoned maser, he only tends to fight in short bursts and flees when outmatched, in his last fight his advantage was cut down really quickly. That and Obi-wan was a trained Jedi master that focused on outlasting him. I would argue that he would also upgrade his check by 1 for every additional lightsaber, resulting in 2 red 1 purple min.

Also, Grevius uses the Aggressor tree combo- Terrify targets into disorentation, then stack on ranks of Prey on the Weak. Obi Wan kept making his **** fear checks, turning someone who's killed multiple masters in the Clone Wars into a cowardly, coughing laughingstock.

Usually these things are accompanied by a reasoning behind it.

Though to answer your question; yes one can wield two lightsabers but use one exclusely for parry/deflect, shoto's damage increase applies to any mounted crystal and minon rules depends; they can either be a group or an individual. Groups always roll together and thus are treated as one enterity, except for cases which cite single/multiple duelist. So yes, you would deal with the minon group as one parry unless he decides to spilt up the groups (thus reducing the potency of their die pool)

Anakin was defeated because he was fighting one of the most skilled duelests of that era. He was just a padwan fighting in a style that he was unaccostomed to and thus was poorly matched to begin with. He had yet to acquire real experience against another duelist.

Darth Maul was doing really well against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and was able to fight evenly with both of them quite handily, and was able to defeat Qui-Gon with it. Yet he was shown to be perfectly capable with a single blade even in using it single form he was able to wield it like how I would imagine a lightsaber pike (using the long haft of the blade for max leverage). He was trained to use it in a multitude of ways depending on situation.

Magma Guards are non-force sensitive machines, it's only natural that they would serve as a formidable roadblock rather then a legitimate threat. Never going to be as good as a master, but good enough to deal with a lot of situations/buy time.

Grievous was specially designed to wield him, ironically he was the best example about why it didn't work too well against a seasoned maser, he only tends to fight in short bursts and flees when outmatched, in his last fight his advantage was cut down really quickly. That and Obi-wan was a trained Jedi master that focused on outlasting him. I would argue that he would also upgrade his check by 1 for every additional lightsaber, resulting in 2 red 1 purple min.

Having some experience with actually wielding 2 swords this is absolutely wrong. You do not use either for exclusively anything. That is the way to die. You block with whatever weapon is best to block with at the moment. You need to be able to switch either weapon from defense to attack and vice versa. And you need to use the advantage of the additional weapon. Meaning when you get good you are parrying at the same time you are attacking.

As stated the use of Duel-Weapon fighting is an defensive action.

With a Pistol/Blaster its a way of put in more lead/blaster bolts in the air forcing you opponent/s to take cover.

with a sword/lightsaber it provides more surface area to defend/attack with.

Now the use of the second weapon does tend to cause openings you can exploit for attack.

This is handled by the Two-weapon fighting rules already.

as to whether it needs its own tree, my answer would be no.

The current rules for two weapon fighting work fine but i would say need some modification

1. Still believe it needs a build in Defense Die

2. I think its to easy and should get two Difficulty Die

other then that it works fine to me.

No it really is not. It is both. It can be very very offensive. As you can strike with both weapons at the same time. It can be very defensive because you can defend with both weapons at the same time. The problem is that it is very difficult to learn to learn to be one arm with 2 hands. To learn to operate both arms together.

Is it possible that one of you is arguing from a system perspective and the other from an "actually fighting with 2 weapons in the real world" perspective?