And yes, from the different approaches I find the limit on reg numbers the best. There would be no errata and thats great.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of limiting any unit (regular or elite) to 2 ...

The only deployment cards, that are played more than twice in any list I've seen so far, are those units, which are overpowered (especially Royal Guards and Imperial Officers).

I still think, that the Royal Guards are overpowered. And this wouldn't change by limiting them to 2.

I think this is a crucial piece. From what I have tried and seen of the game, it would make a lot of sense to cap non-Elites to two copies as well, BUT that has little to do with the Royal Guard in fact. You'd probably still see people play 2xRG in every Imperial list, because, as has been pointed out by DerBaer in his other topic (evaluating the different imperial deployment cards) RGs are over the curve in every aspect.

Without having the full overview of things, my gamer-stomach tells me that most of the other units are reasonably balanced among eachother with 'perhaps' the Sabs being on the stronger end too, but not too strong because they can still easily die if the White die doesn't favor you and without Focus they lose a lot of strength.

So a solution could absolutely be to both limit non-elites to two, issue a new Skirmish version of the Royal Guards (and perhaps on top hire some competitive playtesters for Skirmish along with getting some stat-guidelines rocking it).

And yes, from the different approaches I find the limit on reg numbers the best. There would be no errata and thats great.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of limiting any unit (regular or elite) to 2 ...

The only deployment cards, that are played more than twice in any list I've seen so far, are those units, which are overpowered (especially Royal Guards and Imperial Officers).

I still think, that the Royal Guards are overpowered. And this wouldn't change by limiting them to 2.

I think this is a crucial piece. From what I have tried and seen of the game, it would make a lot of sense to cap non-Elites to two copies as well, BUT that has little to do with the Royal Guard in fact. You'd probably still see people play 2xRG in every Imperial list, because, as has been pointed out by DerBaer in his other topic (evaluating the different imperial deployment cards) RGs are over the curve in every aspect.

Without having the full overview of things, my gamer-stomach tells me that most of the other units are reasonably balanced among eachother with 'perhaps' the Sabs being on the stronger end too, but not too strong because they can still easily die if the White die doesn't favor you and without Focus they lose a lot of strength.

So a solution could absolutely be to both limit non-elites to two, issue a new Skirmish version of the Royal Guards (and perhaps on top hire some competitive playtesters for Skirmish along with getting some stat-guidelines rocking it).

If you are going to issues a skirmish version of royal guards why start limiting regular deployment cards to 2x. I don't understand the logic. We want to promot creativity. Let someone run 10 different cards if they want or 2 sets of 4, as long as they are all balanced it won't matter.

Also I'm sure FFG has playtesters, if not they have an application spot on thier website. Everyone here whining can apply and see how they take the advice.

I'll premise this by saying I have only played some campaign stuff and not ventured into skirmish yet though I have watched it a fair bit.

The general idea of restricting certain units to a limited number is a good idea, the general idea of restricting everything just to curb Royal Guard Abuse Syndrome (RGAS) seems heavy handed. Particularly as they have started to include spammable units like Hired Guns that sort of need to be swarmed.

There really isn't a need to errata the cards themselves (for number restriction, as opposed to power level) since this is a tournament specific problem, just add rules to the tournament rules instead. It seems that the best approach may be taking a leaf of the SW LCG and just introduce a restricted list. Cards on the restricted list can only be fielded in numbers (as indicated), for Royal Guards limit them to 2 deployment cards. Then play it by ear and see whether Officers and/Rebel Saboteurs also need restricting in the future.

As others have alluded too, it doesn't solve the issue of Royal Guards just being way over the power curve, but short of errata nothing is going to fix that. I'm not qualified to comment on how to errata them, but for the good of the game it may well be needed.

A simple errata that would not destroy the current RG would be to simply put a "campaign icon" on the existing ones and release a skirmish version. Just increasing their cost by one would (probably) be game changing. I agree with those that hate erratas, so it would be a nice idea to get new cards at least.

This could be included in a RG villain pack or in a skirmish special pack (I'd like to see a new card for Han and elite versions of the heroes for exemple).

Let's be honest, an errata is the only option if they dont want to affect all other units, though, like I said, I'm not a big fan of the idea, unless it is done properly.

This! New cards are a great idea, that way we aren't nerfing, which sucks, banning them entirely, which sucks, or limiting all deployment cards to 2, which eliminates other list ideas. This way, it's a simple fix that does its job without ruining other things.

Do we have to pay to get these new cards?

Meh, even if it's free I still don't like it. I'd rather see a limit on the number of deployment cards...

I'd rather pay for a pack full of new goodies than 3 extra copies of the core game.....

Think of it like this : you pay for 2 copies of the skirmish card of RG (you have 4 figs from the core game already), a new Han Solo version (the pack you bought is now WAY more usefull), new elite versions of the heroes (Diala, Biv, Gaarkhan and all can now be used competitively in skirmish!) and more.... and a lot of other figures can be used as they no longer suffer for the disadvantageous comparison to the RG.

Would anyone really prefer to buy extra copies of the core game instead of a skirmish pack full of new deployment and command card?

They could also limit all deployment cards to 2. If you really want more of the same unit, just play the elite version. Most of them aren't bad at all and do basically the same job as the regular version. This would also solve one of the bigest problem of this game (the need for extra RG and maybe officers, AKA the need for extra copies of the core game, which everyone hate)

Right now, this would effect:

Wookie Warrior

Rebel Saboteur

Rebel Trooper

Nexu

Tusken Raider

Trandoshan Hunter

Hired Gun

E-Web Engineer

Probe Droid

Imperial Officer

Royal Guard

Heavy Stormtrooper

Stormtrooper

Honestly, which one of these groups would you really want to play more than 2 of?

Stormtrooper

Probe Droid

Hired Gun

Officer

Royal Guard

Rebel Sabateur

Rebel Troopers

Wookiee Warrior

All of those at least maybe more.

The point I'm making is changing the value of the royal guard will hinder less creativity than changing the entire team building structure.

If your arguement was: keep team building the same but errata royal guards to say "No more than 2 of a reg. royal guard deploymeny card" and the same for elites. Then I think you may be stepping towards a solution and not further hampering creativity.

It honestly doesn't matter whats competitive and whats not. Why balance the game for competitive players if it limits the choices for everyone else. You are slapping a fix on every unit when only a handful are out of balance.

All of those units also have an elite version. If you really want to play 4 sabs, why not play 2 elite and 2 regulars ones? Sure, you can no longer play 6 sabs in a squad, so you could say that it hinder creativity, but someone could make the opposite argument about this: you can no longer just spam the same unit and need to be more creative in your squad building.

The only elite versions that would probably not be considered most of the time are Officers and RG, and we all know the reason why: the regular versions are just way too good for their cost....

Just musing: how much of a (skirmish) fix would it be to reduce the group size to 1 with a cost of 4?

It simultaneously has the effect of reducing the number you can use and has the additional thing of meaning killing one guard gets four points off the bat. They're still well above the curve in stats terms (and now it's easier to fit one in a list) but they're less of a points castle and you can't have as many.

The regular Stormtrooper, the regular Probe Droid, the regular Hired Gun and the regular Rebel Trooper are all underpowered. Why would anyone want to play more than 2 of them?

Stormtroopers in masses, Rebel Troopers in masses ... thats what comes to my mind when thinking about land battles in the Star Wars universe ... thats what the title 'Imperial Assault' suggest ...

The Empire won't launch an assault with just 6 Stormtroopers, would it?

There is hope still .. the Rebel Woodland Troopers from Endor are not in a future wave yet. I hope for a deployment card that would let you reinforce your regular troopers every turn by tapping it or something alike that help regular troopers in skirmish.

...

Or even something roughly like this:

'Brothers in Arms', Deployment Card

If a non-elite Trooper is dealt damage by an attack, you may once per attack divert 1 damage to an other adjacent friendly non-elite Trooper

1 point

You could still play 2x elite and 2x regular. Or combine 2 reg stormies with 2 reg heavys and 2 reg snowtroopers to have your "mass" of troopers.

Although you could just think of your squad as one which is part of the assault team because the empire wouldn't launch an assault with only 10 men, right?

And limiting all regs to two would have the effect of people starting to think about playing the vaders fist attachment.

2 Royal Guards + 2 Elite Royal Guards would still be an issue, though.

And even if you reduce their numbers they are still ****ing overpowered and thus an auto include in any competitive imperial list.

I doubt that 2x reg and 2x elite would be an issue. Sure it would be playable but not as good as 4x4 as a great part of 4x4 comes by the officers and their command cards.

And so what? If you have 16 points as an auto include in any imperial list then be it. With time their will be more command cards which make others more shine and then you don't want to spend part of your command deck for 2 rg.

And if you have problems with 2 deployment cards as an auto include, do you also have problems with elite sabs? Two of them are an auto include in every rebel list as well. Or c-3po as an auto include.

So you have 16 points in imps and rebels as auto include at the moment. Where would be the problem?

As it is : There are certain auto includes at every given time in a game like this. You can not change that.

I more an more like the idea of banning them from competitive play ...

And maybe bring them back again if the Emperor will be introduced to the game - as the Emperors special ability, while the Emperor itself is greatly overpriced or underpowered to balance the Royal Guard out.

Yes and then please ban saboteurs as well, because they are so auto include in a rebel list!

Especially @ Starkiller:

How many games did you have against 4x4 and other Royal guard centric lists?

From my personal gaming experience I can say that the less Royal Guards are involved the more fun skirmish games are.

The best and most fun games are those Rebels and/or Scum vs. Empire and/or Scum without any Royal Guards involved.

I don't think that my gaming experience would differ greatly from that of the other players.

I'm really not into getting 4x4 vs 4x4 gaming experience. Its just not my style and to be honest - this isn't why I bought this game in the first place.

To me it isn't even Star Wars at all - even not, or especially not, if you are a huge fan of the OT, just like I am.

So far, I've heard 3 ideas, which were doable:

1. Restrict all regular units to a maximum of 2. Pro: Easy fix in the Errata, no card changes. Cons: Even 2 Royal Guards are still too powerful.
2. Make a figure pack for Royal Guards including balanced deployment cards. Then, ban the cards from the core set. Pro: The problem gets addressed properly. Cons: Nerfing existing figures is not good. Etc.
3. Ban the Royal Guards from competitive skirmish play via Tournament rules. Pro: Easy fix in the Tournament rules, no card changes. The figures are not unusable for campaign players. Other units, that are not overpowered, don't get restricted. The problem gets addressed properly. Cons: Royal Guards are unusable for skirmish players.

Yeah balancing a miniature game after release is a bit of a challenge to say at least.

But there are more approaches:

Introducing unit categories like common, uncommon and rare via skirmish rules:

Common deployment cards could be of any number

Uncommon could be restricted to 2-4

Rare are restricted to 1

So with this system you could have one Royal Guard or Elite Royal Guard Deployment card.

Or even skip the categories and FAQ which number of Deployment Cards could be in a skirmish list for each individually for the official 40 point standard tournament format.

So for example:

Stromtroopers: unlimited

Rebel Troopers: unlimited

Imperial Officers: 0-3

Rebel Saboteurs: 0-2

Royal Guards: 0-1

...

and so on

I think we can deal with a single RG in the standard skirmish game

So far, I've heard 3 ideas, which were doable:

1. Restrict all regular units to a maximum of 2. Pro: Easy fix in the Errata, no card changes. Cons: Even 2 Royal Guards are still too powerful.
2. Make a figure pack for Royal Guards including balanced deployment cards. Then, ban the cards from the core set. Pro: The problem gets addressed properly. Cons: Nerfing existing figures is not good. Etc.
3. Ban the Royal Guards from competitive skirmish play via Tournament rules. Pro: Easy fix in the Tournament rules, no card changes. The figures are not unusable for campaign players. Other units, that are not overpowered, don't get restricted. The problem gets addressed properly. Cons: Royal Guards are unusable for skirmish players.

You left off or chose to ignore several opinions.

A con for option #1 is that it limits team building creativity for every other unit outside of Guards and officers.

The con you have picked out for option #2 isn't really a con, nerfing exisiting figures is fine if it brings them in balance with everything else. That's like saying you'd rather see every other unit go down 1 in cost in order to bring them up to royal guard level, why errata everything to buff it when you can nerf 1-2 units.

One option that's been brought up is:

Limiting Reg. Royal Guards and Officers to 2 per squad. This would be something similar to some of the LCG errata we've seen (making a set 1 per deck instead of the normal 2 etc), it would break up the constant 4x4 builds without changing the card, and wouldn't stop players from playing large numbers of other units if they choose to. (i.e. 4 regular hired guns for bodies, etc). Everyone seems very resistant to this suggestion even though it takes the best option from above and makes it less limiting on other figures.

While the guards are too powerful, I'm a bit leery of nerfing them so much that Saboteurs then become the next overpowered card. My favorite fix was to change the protector ability to only buff neighboring non-Guardian units, rather than anyone. It's a small change, but will hurt 4x4 a lot without breaking Imperial lists that use Guards to protect Heavy Troopers, EWebs, etc.

CCs have a pip system for how many you can include, it would make sense for deployment to as well.

Also you could Errata with a knife and not a mallet:

"You may include up to 4 regular deployment cards of the same type. *They may not exceed a total cost of 30 point."

Though I am of the camp that 4x4 is only the real problem, I think Royal guards are good but not unbeatable if there's less than 4.

While the guards are too powerful, I'm a bit leery of nerfing them so much that Saboteurs then become the next overpowered card. My favorite fix was to change the protector ability to only buff neighboring non-Guardian units, rather than anyone. It's a small change, but will hurt 4x4 a lot without breaking Imperial lists that use Guards to protect Heavy Troopers, EWebs, etc.

Hmmm ... I like this.

This would be a small change that could have the impact we want to see without revamping the skirmish mode.

I did not ask how many games with a 4x4 against 4x4, but well.

And you could also deal with 2 rg in a squad. Where is the problem with that?

Because it is less fun for you can not be a reason. There are balanced lists which have 2 rg suqads e.g. 2rg 2 elite stormies 3 officers. This is beatable with a good rebel list (assuming both players are at same skill level)

I did not ask how many games with a 4x4 against 4x4, but well.

And you could also deal with 2 rg in a squad. Where is the problem with that?

Because it is less fun for you can not be a reason. There are balanced lists which have 2 rg suqads e.g. 2rg 2 elite stormies 3 officers. This is beatable with a good rebel list (assuming both players are at same skill level)

I don't even know who this is directed at. I have no problem with this. I just don't think you should limit other (not overpowered) characters to only 2 regulars. It may not be top tier but that doesn't mean it should be banned.

Sorry, it was directed to "therealstarkiller"

@KennedyHawk: It's probably a question of perspective, but for me, it isn't really creative to spam the same unit 6 times and go win. If that is doable, there is probably something wrong with the unit. To me, creativity is finding the synergy between different kind of units and make them work together as a team, even though perhaps some of them are not as good on their own. While the Hired Guns are really crappy, I've found I really like to have a squad in my list because they let me utilize cards such as Expose Weakness without spending valuable activations to do it, and even if they die doing it, they get a shot off (with Pierce 3!). Now if only they were Hunters as well

@KennedyHawk: It's probably a question of perspective, but for me, it isn't really creative to spam the same unit 6 times and go win. If that is doable, there is probably something wrong with the unit. To me, creativity is finding the synergy between different kind of units and make them work together as a team, even though perhaps some of them are not as good on their own. While the Hired Guns are really crappy, I've found I really like to have a squad in my list because they let me utilize cards such as Expose Weakness without spending valuable activations to do it, and even if they die doing it, they get a shot off (with Pierce 3!). Now if only they were Hunters as well

I'm not saying a team of 6 hired guns is creative, but it's an option. It's not a broken option so why limit it. The skirmish game was designed around having a 4 regular / 2 elite spread on generic units. Unless a unit is broken there's no reason to change it. Rather than dinging all units and saying you can only bring 2 regulars why not make a restriction list that just limits officers and guards to 2 of each.

Because general rules are better than special rules.

The pass rule changed the activation count problem and much of the Officers problem with a small general rule change. And it is good.