But having an adventure on the high seas? That is what doesn't feel quite right. Sure, corsairs and sea-serpents exist. But they really weren't players in the tales as far as I'm aware.

The whole point of the deluxes/cycles is that they can deviate from the trilogy and the tales we know and explore places we didn't get to explore in them.

In the books Angmar existed, but an adventure in Angmar? In the books the characters never did that. Doesn't make sense, game is dying.

But having an adventure on the high seas? That is what doesn't feel quite right. Sure, corsairs and sea-serpents exist. But they really weren't players in the tales as far as I'm aware. A couple adventures here or there related to ship travel wouldn't be clearly appropriate, sure. But having an entire deluxe expansion and 6 APs on the concept seems a bit overdone. Adventurous ocean-going isn't as much a part of Middle Earth as is Mirkwood or Gondor, is it?

Given that a battle with the corsairs and capturing and manning their fleet was a key plot point in Return of the King (albeit one we were only told about by Gimli and Legolas) I'd have to say an adventure on the high seas is consistent with the Lore, even without references to the Appendices.

I personally want to see FFG exploit all the aspects of Middle Earth that they can possibly reach under their license, even if it means exploring places like Rhun and Harad not seen within the text itself. Heck, *especially* places not explored in the text, like Carn Dum. I'd actually like to see them exploit the appendices by exploring the time period *before* the Hobbit and described in the appendices. Who wouldn't love an Eorl hero? Or recreating the dwarf/Goblin war? Or Saga expansions based on the last alliance of Elves and Men?

There's a whole lot of Middle Earth territory and history that remains to be exploited, if the fan base and creators will oblige.

I can see an argument for ents and eagles in ship quests being bizarre, but I guess no more so that seeing them in moria.

I would love to see the ships turning south. Lets see a bit of Dol Amroth!

In the books Angmar existed, but an adventure in Angmar? In the books the characters never did that. Doesn't make sense, game is dying.

I think there is a difference between Angmar and a swashbuckler scenario. It's like, I don't know, making a Batman film in summer at daytime. It just doesn't fit with the theme that we're used to. I'm skeptical, but I'm gonna give it a chance.

I'm going to ignore who said what and what they "truly" meant and this and that but I just wanted to throw my two cents in.

I can see where people are coming from that "swashbuckling" may not exactly fit with the world of Tolkien, but like the Murder at the Prancing Pony I think it's easy to imagine such a thing being present in this world.

Ships are a major part of Tolkien's world, and in the novels it is mentioned and seen that there are even pirates who plague the shores of Gondor. If there are pirates and ships then it's easy to assume that there would be some swashbuckling, people boarding ships on the open seas and crossing swords.

It's a diversion from what we've been used to with forests and caves and orcs and trolls. But it's a nice diversion. I think we'll find ourselves enjoying a fresh perspective and it will add a little more value to the more "true to theme" cycles like Voice of Isengard and Angmar Awakens.

Needless to say I'm looking forward to this upcoming Cycle

The whole point of the deluxes/cycles is that they can deviate from the trilogy and the tales we know and explore places we didn't get to explore in them.

Yes, certainly. But exploring places and events that were not explored in the source material is very different from exploring themes that were not in the source material. Exploring new places is fun. Exploring new themes could be fun too, but I think it's reasonable for people to be wary of messing with the fundamental theme.

In the books Angmar existed, but an adventure in Angmar? In the books the characters never did that. Doesn't make sense, game is dying.

It doesn't matter what exactly happened in the books. Exploring new locations is great. The theme is the entire issue here.

Given that a battle with the corsairs and capturing and manning their fleet was a key plot point in Return of the King (albeit one we were only told about by Gimli and Legolas) I'd have to say an adventure on the high seas is consistent with the Lore, even without references to the Appendices.

I personally want to see FFG exploit all the aspects of Middle Earth that they can possibly reach under their license, even if it means exploring places like Rhun and Harad not seen within the text itself. Heck, *especially* places not explored in the text, like Carn Dum. I'd actually like to see them exploit the appendices by exploring the time period *before* the Hobbit and described in the appendices. Who wouldn't love an Eorl hero? Or recreating the dwarf/Goblin war? Or Saga expansions based on the last alliance of Elves and Men?

There's a whole lot of Middle Earth territory and history that remains to be exploited, if the fan base and creators will oblige.

Again, I'm not saying ship sailing adventure is totally against Tolkien. (In fact, I explicitly stated in my comment that this is not what I was saying.)

I'm saying it's a break from the usual and expected, and that it's not surprising for people to find the idea unsatisfying, or to say it's not true to the source material (because, implied events notwithstanding, it isn't in the source material).

I think there is a difference between Angmar and a swashbuckler scenario. It's like, I don't know, making a Batman film in summer at daytime. It just doesn't fit with the theme that we're used to. I'm skeptical, but I'm gonna give it a chance.

Exactly. The point is the divergence of feel. Of worldly perspective. I'm not even skeptical; I'm all for accepting the new expansion and cycle. I just think it's asinine to immediately throw away any opinion that suggests it unsettles someone.

I can see where people are coming from that "swashbuckling" may not exactly fit with the world of Tolkien, but like the Murder at the Prancing Pony I think it's easy to imagine such a thing being present in this world.

Ships are a major part of Tolkien's world, and in the novels it is mentioned and seen that there are even pirates who plague the shores of Gondor. If there are pirates and ships then it's easy to assume that there would be some swashbuckling, people boarding ships on the open seas and crossing swords.

It's a diversion from what we've been used to with forests and caves and orcs and trolls. But it's a nice diversion. I think we'll find ourselves enjoying a fresh perspective and it will add a little more value to the more "true to theme" cycles like Voice of Isengard and Angmar Awakens.

Agreed, completely. Ship sailing and battles are indeed a part of the world. But it's a diversion from what we've seen, and despite whatever may have been IMPLIED in the source material, it's never been AN ACTIVE PART of the material.

That was not an accident.

It wasn't an active part of the source material because such adventures evoke quite a different feel and theme.

A feel and theme that some people may find disheartening and untrue.

Because, no matter how you try to justify it, in a fundamental way it is untrue.

But that doesn't mean it's bad.

I'm not against the new expansion/cycle. I'm against obtuse forum vigilantes who ignorantly attack anyone who breathes an opinion not 100% supportive of their precious.

ok so heres what I think. If you disagree, just flush this comment. even though the ships and such did exist in tolkien, there was never really much of a focus on it. IT IS TOTALLY WITHIN THE TOLKIEN WORLD TO HAVE SHIPS AND SHIP BATTLES. Im not say thats bad. But the reason why I LOVE this game is because of its connection with tolkien, and how it shows me his beautiful world. I love to adventure not because Im an amazing card play (cause Im not) or because I LOVE card games (i enjoy them but am not in crazy about them) but because I see the beauty that the professor created in them. its the same reason why I enjoy the movies. even though they got a lot of things wrong, they did capture some of the amazing world of lotr. And I think that the designers of this game have run out of things to create that is close to tolkien or have decided to go out on a limb and write about something he vaguely talks about. I have no problem with people who play the game for the sake of its good design liking this. But I personally don't love this idea of ships because it is no longer a game based closely off of tolkiens world, but a game derived from some obscure tolkien quotes.

Don't be offended. You may love tolkien more than I do and think that this is a great idea. if thats true don't call be a troll. I am telling you what I believe, and you are perfectly reasonable in believing what you believe. Again, I don't think theirs anything antitolkien in ships and such, but when the main goal of the game becomes to make a good game rather than to show the beauty of tolkien through a good game, I will quietly disagree. as was said originally but under a completely different context, "no ships for me please!"

Personally, I think it's a bit too soon to be denouncing the feel or vibe of a cycle when none of it has yet been released so we don't actually know how the quests play...

The Lord of the Rings is largely told from the four hobbits point of view. Anytime they aren't in the picture things happen quickly and in passing. This is why Tolkien didn't go into detail on the sea battles.

Honestly, I know the theme is very important to a lot of people (and I respect that) but if you want to get worried I would be more concerned with the mechanics of the ships & seafaring--let's face it, pirate--setting. A lot of pretty good games have had a hard time translating similar themes when their systems aren't built specifically to deal with them.

Pathfinder Skull & Shackles comes to mind as a prime example since it's somewhat similar to LotRs. The core game was pretty mechanically sound but whenever you had to interact with your "ship" the rules started to clunk hard.

Hopefully FFG allows enough abstraction that we don't get bogged down too much with scenario and ship-specific rules.

Honestly, I know the theme is very important to a lot of people (and I respect that) but if you want to get worried I would be more concerned with the mechanics of the ships & seafaring--let's face it, pirate--setting. A lot of pretty good games have had a hard time translating similar themes when their systems aren't built specifically to deal with them.

Pathfinder Skull & Shackles comes to mind as a prime example since it's somewhat similar to LotRs. The core game was pretty mechanically sound but whenever you had to interact with your "ship" the rules started to clunk hard.

Hopefully FFG allows enough abstraction that we don't get bogged down too much with scenario and ship-specific rules.

I was being sarcastic.

Yeah, we know.

Orks didn't have ships, did they?

I don't believe so. Not sure a ship crewed entirely by orcs would be a great idea! Pretty sure they would bicker and fight and sink the bloody ship in no time at all. Maybe with a black numenorian captain onboard it would work...

A ship with a value of Will ?

Sound reasonable! I m sarcastic too

Orks didn't have ships, did they?

Not sea-going vessels AFAIK, but that's probably a function of need rather than any special aversion to the water. In both the first and third ages the Orcs were on the same land mass as their enemies, and in the second age Sauron went to Mordor *because* he couldn't compete with the sea strength of the Numenor (at least that's the implication I draw from Appendix B tale of years). Orcs *did* use boats within the Lord of the Rings. Faramir's messenger in "The Siege of Gondor" reports "It is now seen that in secret they have long been building floats and barges in great numbers in East Osgiliath. They swarmed across like beetles." Orcs also took the island Cair Andros.

Agreed, completely. Ship sailing and battles are indeed a part of the world. But it's a diversion from what we've seen, and despite whatever may have been IMPLIED in the source material, it's never been AN ACTIVE PART of the material.

That was not an accident.

It wasn't an active part of the source material because such adventures evoke quite a different feel and theme.

I suppose what you means by "AN ACTIVE PART". The battle with the Corsairs of Umbar are not directly observed by Hobbits, but they are explicitly described and not just implied. I'll grant that there was no high seas battle in the Return of the King, but Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli arrive at Pellenor in what is essentially pirate ships.

It also matters what you consider the "source material". I certainly include the Appendices in the source material, especially for a game set largely *between* the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Appendix A shows that the sea battles and sea power were of enormous interest to Gondor throughout its history. And of particular interest to a mysterious captain and favorite of Ecthelion II, Thorongil (a.k.a. Aragorn).

"Thorongil often counselled Ecthelion that the strength of the rebels of Umbar was a great peril to Gondor, and a threat to the fiefs of the south that would prove deadly, if Sauron moved to open war. At last he got leave of the Steward and gathered a small fleet, and he came to Umbar unlooked for by night, and there burned a great part of the ships of the Corsairs. He himself overthrew the Captain of the Haven in battle upon the quays, and then he withdrew his fleet with small loss."

Battling corsairs is certainly a change in setting from what we've seen in past cycles. But it's actually right in the wheelhouse of the source material.

The Navy Seals of Gondor.

Orks didn't have ships, did they?

Not sea-going vessels AFAIK, but that's probably a function of need rather than any special aversion to the water. In both the first and third ages the Orcs were on the same land mass as their enemies, and in the second age Sauron went to Mordor *because* he couldn't compete with the sea strength of the Numenor (at least that's the implication I draw from Appendix B tale of years). Orcs *did* use boats within the Lord of the Rings. Faramir's messenger in "The Siege of Gondor" reports "It is now seen that in secret they have long been building floats and barges in great numbers in East Osgiliath. They swarmed across like beetles." Orcs also took the island Cair Andros.

That's cool to know, thank you.

So no sea vessels, but perhaps we could get at least a boat that is manned wih humans but has some orc troops on it. And am i the only one who desperatly wants to engage a ghost ship?

Battling corsairs is certainly a change in setting from what we've seen in past cycles. But it's actually right in the wheelhouse of the source material.

What I mean is that the battles were not explicitly narrated. We, the audience, were not present and in the midst of them.

One can claim that this was because the hobbits didn't witness them, but then the hobbits didn't witness the travels of the three hunters either, but we the readers had plenty of explicit narration on that part.

Again, I'm not saying ship battles are so alien to Tolkien to be a reason to discard this cycle out of hand, but rather it's reasonable for someone to feel they don't fit with the explicit narrative - because they weren't part of the explicit narrative. All we got were dry, historian-esque factoids about them. The source material doesn't delve into them directly. And for a reason.

All we got were dry, historian-esque factoids about them. The source material doesn't delve into them directly. And for a reason.

That's Tolkien for you. The Appendices are basically a collection of dry, historian-esque factoids about diverse peoples and events, and yet here we are with quests like Ruins of Belegost, Mount Gram, Celebrimbor's Secret, etc etc. The whole point of the game (except for the sagas), is that the designers can take a minuscule account of an event or place not dealt with anywhere else and create a story from it. I see no reason why Belegaer and sea battles are more far fetched than the quests I just named.

The whole Angmar cycle is based also on dry historical facts ... Rhudaur, Carn Dum etc are nearly not mentioned in source material. I did not read any complaints about that and I am glad I did not to be honest. I like exploring areas where there are so scarce information. It is like discovering the middle earth with my heroes

If we want to stick on just the Hobbit, LotR books content and do not take on the appendix part, the other books etc, then the game should be dead already