Here's the Crunch, MC80 + Akbar + Home One & AFm2 and EA, gives both 6 red dice on each broadside and you can change one dice to an accuracy on any ship but Home One. Stick GT on the AFm2 and you don't have to worry too much about manoeuvring. ISD's only get 4 dice at red range and that's the more expensive ISD2. The speed is no issue as you have to close with the MC80 to kill it, send it right up the middle or up each side with the AF in front and as soon as anything is in range pound it with 12 red dice.

Yes, once the ISD is in range it can hit you with 8 dice but it will already have weathered 1 round of 6+6 red to it's 4+4 (if you have GT on it, which you will) and that 6+6 will be focused on it, where as it's 4+4 will be split between 2 targets. Hell if you stick EA on Home One as well it can roll 9 dice to the ISD's 8 at medium.

Comparing a naked MC80 to a naked ISD, yes the MC80 is worse but when are you ever going to take one without upgrades or for that matter Akbar ?

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

Evades? On an MC-80? Have you ever seen something that fat take evasive action?

Oh wait...

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

I think Truthiness came pretty close with his Garm-Independence B-wing madness list. Not über-powerful, but certainly playable and competitive.

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

Yeah, the MKII can do pretty much everything the MC80 can do with a much greater savings in points.

natural Fighter 4? two defensive slots?

I think my answer to the OP would be the Imperial... simply because it is motivating many to explore different kinds of lists to kill it, and some run away in fear of being attacked by it (I saw this happen in at least three games with mine). Without the presence of Ackbar, or other upgrade shenanigans, the Imperial is the ship to fear. High hull, great shields, great command ratings and a capable upgrade spread.

The MC80 can be configured for high-repair disgust to make it an everlasting pickle, but without Ackbar the side-attack dice is merely ok and you're wondering why you aren't taking more space whales.

I've seen some saying the MC30 is it, but I think any ship without the Foresight title dies too easily. Had the MC30s been great regardless of title then there might be an argument, but without it?

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

I think Truthiness came pretty close with his Garm-Independence B-wing madness list. Not über-powerful, but certainly playable and competitive.

incidentally, we need a Truthiness MC80 title

and Officer Colbert at the helm

natural Fighter 4? two defensive slots?

I think my answer to the OP would be the Imperial... simply because it is motivating many to explore different kinds of lists to kill it, and some run away in fear of being attacked by it (I saw this happen in at least three games with mine). Without the presence of Ackbar, or other upgrade shenanigans, the Imperial is the ship to fear. High hull, great shields, great command ratings and a capable upgrade spread.

The MC80 can be configured for high-repair disgust to make it an everlasting pickle, but without Ackbar the side-attack dice is merely ok and you're wondering why you aren't taking more space whales.

I've seen some saying the MC30 is it, but I think any ship without the Foresight title dies too easily. Had the MC30s been great regardless of title then there might be an argument, but without it?

What about natural 4 and defensive slots?

Raymus acts as a psuedo-4 and just because you have two defensive slots doesn't mean you need to fill them up. 9/10 ECMs are enough.

Not to mention the MKII also having 4 Engineering and almost as many shields as the MC80. Depending on what you want to do, and what admiral you're fielding, the MKII is a very solid substitute for the MC80 at a much better price.

honestly I don't believe there is a reason to take the mc80 outside of akbar

Home One is pretty spiffy with Salvation and cr-90s packing TLRC and shrimps etc. Sucks that MC80s can't evade, because MM loves all those other ships

Still can't get a satisfying list with Independence

I think Truthiness came pretty close with his Garm-Independence B-wing madness list. Not über-powerful, but certainly playable and competitive.

incidentally, we need a Truthiness MC80 title

and Officer Colbert at the helm

We can't repel punditry of that magnitude!

The Raider.

Small, fast, reactive, and anti-squadron. It almost feels like a Rebel ship and I'm not sure if that's a good thing for this game.

It's no more a Rebel ship than the MC30 is an imperial ship, in my opinion. While the Raider is faster than every other imperial ship and quite fragile, it's still focused on close ranged attacks, sports the brace token that's ubiquitous to imperial ships, and has a nasty front arc. The MC30 has close range firepower that exceed the gladiator*, but it's still a broadside focused, highly maneuverable ship with a fragile hull.

*Well, the gladiator gets .25 more average damage when double arcing. On the other hand, the MC30 will have more frequent accuracy results.

Home One is my answer, for a very simple reason. I won't buy that Fugly Space Guppy, so the MC80 finally gives my Rebel Fleet something bigger than a NebB.

Home One is my answer, for a very simple reason. I won't buy that Fugly Space Guppy, so the MC80 finally gives my Rebel Fleet something bigger than a NebB.

That's certainty a new one.

What about natural 4 and defensive slots?

Raymus acts as a psuedo-4 and just because you have two defensive slots doesn't mean you need to fill them up. 9/10 ECMs are enough.

Not to mention the MKII also having 4 Engineering and almost as many shields as the MC80. Depending on what you want to do, and what admiral you're fielding, the MKII is a very solid substitute for the MC80 at a much better price.

Raymus on the MC80 with expanded hangars can push the fighter rating up to 6 in one activation. With Independence I can also move B-Wings and their YT-1300 escorts into position for a next-turn activation where all six of them do whatever they need to do. All the while having black-blue AA support from the command version, where the A/F has to choose between a higher fighter rating or AA to support its fighters. Also, Taking an MC80 over two A/FIIBs also saves you around 30 points you can use for more fighters.

In my view, Raymus' A/FIIB Gallant Heaven with Expanded Hangars and Flight Controllers can compare, but it cannot out-shoot the MC80 if both of them take Ackbar. And the MC80 can support its fighters better in a close engagement.

So I dunno, I think there are advantages to the MC80 that perhaps are being overlooked? To say nothing of the titles... Paragon is very niche while all three of the MC80 titles look good to me.

I mean, another thing I'm looking at is what kinds of ships to field with an MC80.

Sure I could easily make a 3 A/F group with some fighter support and have the high mobility. That's never going away and it's been there since Wave 1. But I'm thinking of, well, this:

Rebel Paincloud (399)

Precision Strike - Hyperspace Assault - Minefields

MC80 command // Rieekan / Independence / Raymus / Engineering Team / Expanded Hangars / ECM

CR-90A // Princess Leia / Projection Experts / ECM

MC30c Torpedo Frigate // Foresight / Ordnance Experts / ECM / ACM

4x B-Wing

2x YT-1300

I'll use the MC80 and fighter cloud with CR-90A as my heavy battlegroup, while the MC30 is a flanker I'd like to keep in hyperspace and deploy as a flanker. The striking power is in my fighters. Basically, the MC80 tanks with fighter support and Leia supporting with commands and I use Fighter 6 and an enormous amount of firepower to do damage.

I can also modify the lists' fighter selection because B-Wings are (for wave 1) the most expensive Generic. I can switch this up to X-Wings and A-Wings if I want to. The key is using Fighter 6 and the heavy MC80 broadsides to wreck anything that gets in too close. And if the MC80 is in trouble, I can use Leia and the CR90 to change to Engineering commands and float it back up.

What about natural 4 and defensive slots?

Raymus acts as a psuedo-4 and just because you have two defensive slots doesn't mean you need to fill them up. 9/10 ECMs are enough.

Not to mention the MKII also having 4 Engineering and almost as many shields as the MC80. Depending on what you want to do, and what admiral you're fielding, the MKII is a very solid substitute for the MC80 at a much better price.

Raymus on the MC80 with expanded hangars can push the fighter rating up to 6 in one activation. With Independence I can also move B-Wings and their YT-1300 escorts into position for a next-turn activation where all six of them do whatever they need to do. All the while having black-blue AA support from the command version, where the A/F has to choose between a higher fighter rating or AA to support its fighters. Also, Taking an MC80 over two A/FIIBs also saves you around 30 points you can use for more fighters.

In my view, Raymus' A/FIIB Gallant Heaven with Expanded Hangars and Flight Controllers can compare, but it cannot out-shoot the MC80 if both of them take Ackbar. And the MC80 can support its fighters better in a close engagement.

So I dunno, I think there are advantages to the MC80 that perhaps are being overlooked? To say nothing of the titles... Paragon is very niche while all three of the MC80 titles look good to me.

So basically the squadron 4 and nothing about the two defensive slots you mentioned in the previous post (which btw, is only available on the assault variant).

So with expanded hangars and Raymus, you get 1 less than the M80C, but you save the 34 points or whatever.

I mean, if you're talking purely from a squadron management perspective, aside from the Independence's bonuses, I don't see a compelling argument for the MC80 over the MKII. Like I said in a previous thread, you only really take the MC80 if you're looking for the titles. Not the squadron 4, not the 2 defensive slots (misspoke here most likely), and for the titles and its interaction with B-Wings.

I mean, another thing I'm looking at is what kinds of ships to field with an MC80.

Sure I could easily make a 3 A/F group with some fighter support and have the high mobility. That's never going away and it's been there since Wave 1. But I'm thinking of, well, this:

Rebel Paincloud (399)

Precision Strike - Hyperspace Assault - Minefields

MC80 command // Rieekan / Independence / Raymus / Engineering Team / Expanded Hangars / ECM

CR-90A // Princess Leia / Projection Experts / ECM

MC30c Torpedo Frigate // Foresight / Ordnance Experts / ECM / ACM

4x B-Wing

2x YT-1300

I'll use the MC80 and fighter cloud with CR-90A as my heavy battlegroup, while the MC30 is a flanker I'd like to keep in hyperspace and deploy as a flanker. The striking power is in my fighters. Basically, the MC80 tanks with fighter support and Leia supporting with commands and I use Fighter 6 and an enormous amount of firepower to do damage.

I can also modify the lists' fighter selection because B-Wings are (for wave 1) the most expensive Generic. I can switch this up to X-Wings and A-Wings if I want to. The key is using Fighter 6 and the heavy MC80 broadsides to wreck anything that gets in too close. And if the MC80 is in trouble, I can use Leia and the CR90 to change to Engineering commands and float it back up.

With a loaded MC30 there I don't think any opponent would choose hyperspace assault. How would you use Minefields there? Whenever I see it, Imps are creating funnels for their Pizza death arcs.

What about natural 4 and defensive slots?

Raymus acts as a psuedo-4 and just because you have two defensive slots doesn't mean you need to fill them up. 9/10 ECMs are enough.

Not to mention the MKII also having 4 Engineering and almost as many shields as the MC80. Depending on what you want to do, and what admiral you're fielding, the MKII is a very solid substitute for the MC80 at a much better price.

Raymus on the MC80 with expanded hangars can push the fighter rating up to 6 in one activation. With Independence I can also move B-Wings and their YT-1300 escorts into position for a next-turn activation where all six of them do whatever they need to do. All the while having black-blue AA support from the command version, where the A/F has to choose between a higher fighter rating or AA to support its fighters. Also, Taking an MC80 over two A/FIIBs also saves you around 30 points you can use for more fighters.

In my view, Raymus' A/FIIB Gallant Heaven with Expanded Hangars and Flight Controllers can compare, but it cannot out-shoot the MC80 if both of them take Ackbar. And the MC80 can support its fighters better in a close engagement.

So I dunno, I think there are advantages to the MC80 that perhaps are being overlooked? To say nothing of the titles... Paragon is very niche while all three of the MC80 titles look good to me.

So basically the squadron 4 and nothing about the two defensive slots you mentioned in the previous post (which btw, is only available on the assault variant).

So with expanded hangars and Raymus, you get 1 less than the M80C, but you save the 34 points or whatever.

I mean, if you're talking purely from a squadron management perspective, aside from the Independence's bonuses, I don't see a compelling argument for the MC80 over the MKII. Like I said in a previous thread, you only really take the MC80 if you're looking for the titles. Not the squadron 4, not the 2 defensive slots (misspoke here most likely), and for the titles and its interaction with B-Wings.

I didn't talk about the defensive slots because I thought up a more immediate use with the offensive structure slot with the fighter cloud. I dunno, I can't see how access to double defense upgrades is a bad thing. ECMs and Advanced Projectors while you spam engineering means you can spend all that engineering repairing the far shield that was hit by an ISD shot, after reducing it in half. And hull 6 always felt kind of fragile on the A/Fs, while my VSDs always felt ok being at 8. But you're building the assault MC80 to actively repair all the time while passively firing at anything nearby.

It's 34 points between the cheapest of the Assault Frigates and MC80s. For that, you get more resiliency, higher natural attack, and better AA. I dunno, seems to me if you wanted to telescope two assault frigates into one ship to free up points and ship space for other craft, that's what the MC80 can do. Along with the Titles and stuff.

Though when I think about it, apart from the increase in cost, the only shortcoming the MC80 has over the Assault Frigate is not taking the offensive team slot. Is that why the ship isn't worth the increase in cost? No Gunnery teams or flight controllers? Can you imagine the ship if it had... an Ackbar-enhanced eight dice attack out of the same arc with a support slot and greater shields than the ISD?

Does no one play XI7s in your area? APs are a liability in most of the games that I've played. Spamming Engineering also detracts from better movement, and you probably want to throw squadrons commands anyway since we're talking about carriers right? The assault variant for double defenses is a trap IMO. It's more expensive for the same chassis with a few things here and there, but I never understood why players are compelled to take upgrades just for the sake of taking them.

I think we just have a different approach in building lists, and that's OK.

I think the MC80 is a good ship if you're planning to build with squadrons in mind, or damage in mind, or control in mind. No matter which way you go, you gotta take upgrades on it I feel. Seeing lightly packed or almost naked MC80s on the field so far has not been a good experience. Unlike the ISD which has overall better stats, the MC80 is not a ship I would take to a game lightly.

I certainty wouldn't take it without Ackbar either, as I feel that you need the dude to make the ship worthwhile in the first place. I know others will disagree and that's fine, but with broadsides that big I can't help but take the lure.