And here I'm usually the guy busting out the Art of War.

That said, all of your strategies *sound* perfectly workable, but on the table I've had mixed to poor results.

Blitzkrieg tactics find themselves toothless once they get to close range, badly damaged ships facing full-health ships whose firepower has only increased as they've gotten closer.

Raiders melt against the Home One because they can't brace, and a Raider that isn't bracing is a dead Raider.

Presenting multiple targets only works if your opponent isn't converging fields of fire (which they always are with Ackbar'd corvettes. If they ARE converging fields of fire you're serving your ships up like a buffet.

The real problem with this list is that the "real" threat is Ackbar, because he makes all the "little" threats INTO the "real" threat. Destroying the 'vettes is both challenging and still leaves you with a big ol squid to deal with, focusing on the squid leaves you getting picked apart by 'vettes, and at no point does careful maneuvering do much for you since the only ship that can outmaneuver the CR90 is the Raider, which we've already established is going to die without being able to use brace.

Honestly, I think Gladiators may be the answer here. Glads with Engine Techs in an Ozzel list can pull some insane maneuvers. Maybe just insane enough to quickly box Admiral Snackbar to death...

That's why I've proposed the idea of Raiders being situationally expendable. The big guns he fires are your raiders are big guns he's not firing at your bigger ships.

The idea of facing a Home One clad Fishface is exactly why I started pondering lists like some of the ones I've put in other threads (and variations of which I've posted three or four).

Swimming with Sharks

EMPIRE FLEET 396

1 • Gladiator II-class Star Destroyer - Gladiator-class Star Destroyer (62) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Engine Techs (8) - Assault Concussion Missiles (7) - Demolisher (10)
• Total : 91 • Code : e6w5s3n1f12
2 • Gladiator II-class Star Destroyer - Gladiator-class Star Destroyer (62) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Engine Techs (8) - Assault Concussion Missiles (7) - Insidious (3)
• Total : 84 • Code : e6w5s3n1f13
3 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Expanded Launchers (13)
• Total : 61 • Code : e25w5n2
4 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Expanded Launchers (13)
• Total : 61 • Code : e25w5n2
5 • Victory I-class Star Destroyer - Victory-class Star Destroyer (73) - Admiral Screed (26)
• Total : 99 • Code : e1c6

Something like this I think gives you multiple credible, fast-moving threats, some of which could be sacrificial as required. Hell, one could even conceivably put Screed on a GSD and send the Vic in to tank shots, though its paltry speed makes that questionable. It probably serves best as fire support.

But that's just one variation on a theme that can be tinkered with.

I can confirm a Glad is the answer. Park a Glad in the front arc, making sure you are not in a side arc at all, and go to town. The MC80 only has 8 hull and will go down fairly quickly to concentrated fire and cannot maneuver enough to get those side arcs somewhere useful.

Of course this is not fool proof and will take some planning to get your ships where you want them when you want them there but that is what this game is all about.

I can confirm a Glad is the answer. Park a Glad in the front arc, making sure you are not in a side arc at all, and go to town. The MC80 only has 8 hull and will go down fairly quickly to concentrated fire and cannot maneuver enough to get those side arcs somewhere useful.

Of course this is not fool proof and will take some planning to get your ships where you want them when you want them there but that is what this game is all about.

It's worth noting that the Gladiator can be positioned in such a way as to hit the front/rear of a Large base ship with BOTH side arcs.

Tricky, but worthwhile.

I can confirm a Glad is the answer. Park a Glad in the front arc, making sure you are not in a side arc at all, and go to town. The MC80 only has 8 hull and will go down fairly quickly to concentrated fire and cannot maneuver enough to get those side arcs somewhere useful.

Of course this is not fool proof and will take some planning to get your ships where you want them when you want them there but that is what this game is all about.

It's worth noting that the Gladiator can be positioned in such a way as to hit the front/rear of a Large base ship with BOTH side arcs.

Tricky, but worthwhile.

It is possible but extremely difficult.

These two points are spot on, which is part of my problem with Ackbar...

The best Imperial answers to him are... the same **** combos that were the best Imperial answers to everything else for the entirety of Wave One. How disappointing.

True. for us on the Imperial side, we get our shiny super-ship the Imperial and access to a light ship of our own, ostensibly for capital ship dominance and to have some harassment flexibility. Well, with Ackbar the Rebels can now match (or surpass!) us in firepower and the Rebels already dominate in the lighter ship category.

So the shiny new toys we get in our inventory aren't enough to overcome the advantages Ackbar gives to the rebels, apparently? For the cost of him and a couple of assault frigates, you think it makes up for the presence of an ISD? If not, then we should push those advantages.

It's also worth noting perhaps that all of our ships can carry Gunnery Teams, and we have more slots for missiles than the rebels do. Again since we have screed, we can guarantee any of those missiles will trigger their special effects. I'd also like to experiment with swarming Raiders armed with NK-7s to gradually strip ships of their defensive tokens.

Squadrons seem to be the most effective, focusing down Ackbar himself to take away the fleet's range advantage, but even that is rendered difficult by the need for a carrier ship to move nearly into firing range, and the fact that they will almost certainly have fighter escort.

Fortunately the empire has the only generic Rogue bombers. Gee, I wonder why that's the case...

They're expensive and can be tied down by fighters, but a couple turns of Firespray fire, coupled with a solid activation of TIE bombers with Boosted Comms (with or without Rhymer) should soften Ackbar's ship up a bit.

I found smart placement of Fire Lane tokens (stacking works) is good. Since players now have Ackbar, they don't usually take Enhanced Armaments.

Squadrons seem to be the most effective, focusing down Ackbar himself to take away the fleet's range advantage, but even that is rendered difficult by the need for a carrier ship to move nearly into firing range, and the fact that they will almost certainly have fighter escort.

Fortunately the empire has the only generic Rogue bombers. Gee, I wonder why that's the case...

They're expensive and can be tied down by fighters, but a couple turns of Firespray fire, coupled with a solid activation of TIE bombers with Boosted Comms (with or without Rhymer) should soften Ackbar's ship up a bit.

The Firespray 31, for as good as it is, can be totally shut down by even a cursory fighter screen. Rogues in general are more of the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself. Besides, at speed 3, I'd rather take TIE bombers and use Corrupter to toss them distance 5 with a Jumpmaster in tow.

I get what you're saying, but the Firespray is simply *not* an answer to Ackbar, considering that an inferior number of points in Rebel squadrons will take them out of the fight for the majority of the game.

These two points are spot on, which is part of my problem with Ackbar...

The best Imperial answers to him are... the same **** combos that were the best Imperial answers to everything else for the entirety of Wave One. How disappointing.

True. for us on the Imperial side, we get our shiny super-ship the Imperial and access to a light ship of our own, ostensibly for capital ship dominance and to have some harassment flexibility. Well, with Ackbar the Rebels can now match (or surpass!) us in firepower and the Rebels already dominate in the lighter ship category.

So the shiny new toys we get in our inventory aren't enough to overcome the advantages Ackbar gives to the rebels, apparently? For the cost of him and a couple of assault frigates, you think it makes up for the presence of an ISD? If not, then we should push those advantages.

It's also worth noting perhaps that all of our ships can carry Gunnery Teams, and we have more slots for missiles than the rebels do. Again since we have screed, we can guarantee any of those missiles will trigger their special effects. I'd also like to experiment with swarming Raiders armed with NK-7s to gradually strip ships of their defensive tokens.

Indeed, we do have all the fun missile toys. The problem is: You have to weather two whole range bands of incoming fire before you even get to roll those dice, and said incoming fire will do nothing but increase in strength as you approach.

It's not like the damage disparity from red/black dice is so massive as to make up for this discrepancy in some way, not with additions like TRCs. By the time you're at black range, the sheer quantity of Ackbar's red dice have you on the ropes.

Alternatively, you can try running red/blue variant Star Destroyers and hope their hull will hold out long enough while you trade fire, but I've found this to be a losing proposition when your firing angle can do little but worsen as you approach while your enemy circles to your weaker arcs, getting a better angle every time you move. Again, this is MUCH worse against the CR-90 which will spend maybe one turn at long range in your front arc, and the rest of the game in your side/rear arcs blasting holes in the durasteel.

I feel like defeating Ackbar is entirely a positional game, but again when he's applied to the CR90 you simply cannot win the positional game against him (At least not without a VERY specific list).

I favor "all comers" lists, and Ackbar is making those lists less and less diverse, by my reckoning. No sir, I don't like it.

The higer point game you play , the better choice is Ackbar. So for high points game above 400 points I think Ackbar will be overpowering since you get 2 ekstra red dice for every capital ship you bring. The imperial cant match that with the admirals they have today.

I don't know that I agree. I've played Ackbar twice now; and triumphed both times with 2 different tactics: admittedly that aren't always at play. So there are options.

Firstly, as people have said, squadrons are one of the best ways to engage Ackbar with. His ability is useless against fighters (interestingly, most admirals are...but It seems this case is special in that regard), and it seems very likely that many Rebel Admirals will forgo squadrons to stack the deck with extra red dice. Thus you've free reign to blow him up from afar with your squadrons (you took those right? Really, it's 2015...take squadrons you shlubs).

Secondly, again as stated already, cut him off. If you get in front of him, he can't do a thing about it. Set up your faster and more agile small ships in their path and the large ships can't do a thing. If they're rocking corvette swarms then it should be easy to obliterate them with squadron fire and your picket ships.

Third, and last, is always objectives. I fear there'll be a lot of Red picks...but you can really swing points in your favor if you figure out how to outscore the opponent using those lovely red/yellow/blue cards. (This applies to all games, not just ackbar)

Firstly, as people have said, squadrons are one of the best ways to engage Ackbar with. His ability is useless against fighters (interestingly, most admirals are...but It seems this case is special in that regard), and it seems very likely that many Rebel Admirals will forgo squadrons to stack the deck with extra red dice. Thus you've free reign to blow him up from afar with your squadrons (you took those right? Really, it's 2015...take squadrons you shlubs).

While four CR-90s spitting five red dice with a EA and a CF command obliterate your carriers, never even having to address your bombers.

Squadrons are definitely strong against Ackbar, but the way to beat huge Squadron lists is by taking out their ships, and that's what Ackbar excels at.

This leaves us with the best answer still being a long shot. Not awesome.

Secondly, again as stated already, cut him off. If you get in front of him, he can't do a thing about it. Set up your faster and more agile small ships in their path and the large ships can't do a thing. If they're rocking corvette swarms then it should be easy to obliterate them with squadron fire and your picket ships.

Except smash you with the focused fire of all the ships that Ackbar *isn't* on and that you *aren't* blocking.

Ackbar's ship isn't the problem. It's all the other ships that are the problem, and blocking him does nothing but put one single ship out of his direct fire. The most troublesome Ackbar lists don't have more than one large ship, and they don't run in a predictable line, making traditional blocking techniques at best pointless and at worst actively counterproductive.

Third, and last, is always objectives. I fear there'll be a lot of Red picks...but you can really swing points in your favor if you figure out how to outscore the opponent using those lovely red/yellow/blue cards. (This applies to all games, not just ackbar)

I struggle to find a single objective that an Ackbar CR90 list isn't capable of outplaying most fleets on.

Contested Outpost is a massacre, Fire Lanes is a losing proposition since the whole problem here is that Ackbar can put more dice on the field at long range than anyone else, Fleet Ambush doesn't help much on either side since his ships are just going to start in ideal range to hit you from the outset, Hyperspace Assault is probably the best yellow and that's going to be highly situational.

Intel Sweep is a no brainer for a CR-90 list with only a speedy Imperial list being able to counterplay, Dangerous Territory is alright-ish but again telegraphs your position to the enemy and lo-and-behold the Rebels can put Jaina's Light on one of those beastly CR-90s to negate a lot of your advantage anyway, Minefields and Superior Positions are probably the best for a second player, but the chances of a Reb picking that over your red objective seems dismally low.

Speaking of Red objectives... Advanced Gunnery is right out... Opening Salvo helps the enemy as much or more than it helps you... Precision Strike is going to also help them almost as much as it helps you, since his small ships will be able to flip cards, too... this pretty much leaves Most Wanted, which just plays into the trap of rushing Ackbar only to have his buddies pick you apart.

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer here, I'm *genuinely* curious to find out what others have come up with to deal with Ackbar, because as of now my strategy consists of "Be an amazing pilot and hope the opponent rolls handfuls of blanks" which doesn't strike me as a particularly reliable one.

I'd also like to point out my biggest issue with Ackbar: It's not that he *can't be beaten*. It's that the amount of effort and care required to beat him is often not proportional to the amount of effort required to use him. Ackbarring is about as brainless as a strategy gets, and it is *shockingly* effective.

I'm just hoping there's an Achilles' Heel I haven't spotted.

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer here, I'm *genuinely* curious ... ... ...

Unfortunately, you do come across a bit of that right now, by dismissing things out of hand...

Stay Positive!

Look at the things you Can influence... Setup of Objective Positioning, as well as Terrain, as well as where you are in relation to said objectives, Will make a difference.

Look at Fire Lanes. Ackbar does not effect Fire Lanes. At All. So even if they're loading up on 54pt EA CR90As, they're adding 2 Reds at Long Range, and adding a Blue at Medium... Sure, they might be able to dive Cr90s into that battle to get to your tokens, but they're Cr90s that have to overdice you without Ackbar. And if those Objectives are on your side of the Table - which includes the Contested Outpost... They're not going to be Scoring Points for Securing that Objective unless they Dive in... You Be There and you very quickly regain the losses you suffer in those points, as long as your return fire is even modest at best...

And honestly, the idea of your "Biggest Issue" with Ackbar was the same thing people have been talking about as the "Biggest Issue" of Screed+Demolisher Lists...

I'm not as fussed. There are ways to manipulate things, but they have to deal with an overall strategy, rather than a simple quick fix. We'll get there, I think we're all jsut too new with this Wave-2 Stuff to see the total picture...

It almost feels like the early days where everyone was Concentrating Fire and few people were Navigating or Engineering to save their lives... So I'm sure we'll evolve.

Playing to the objective would be a more generally workable strategy if the list couldn't cover the majority of the play area with murderous firing arcs. You also need an objective that you CAN play to. If you take initiative and they pick your red objective, there generally isn't much you can do about that. If they take initiative and hand you advanced gunnery/opening salvo, superior positions and contested outpost there isn't a lot you can do to play to the objective.

Its not easy, no... But its stacking advantages that you need... Being second player makes them Move First, so you have the potential to engage first. And when you get to shoot first, you can drop a Corvette a Turn with decent firepower. They'll make you hurt for it, yes. Imperials, in particular, have the Hull Points to try to compensate for that...

You want Contested Outpost as a Second Player. That will make the Home One want to come across the table at you, if you keep it near your edge and your ships slow rolling waiting for them to approach.

Red Objectives, well, they're going to be the Rub... They used to be the Imperial Fallback, but now, now they're a double edged sword. Most Wanted with you picking something small and something that you want to kill of theirs, might be the best advantage there...

I'll find out tomorrow a fair bit, I guess... 6 hours of Non-Stop games to play.

Contested Outpost against Ackbar isn't going to play out that way. Any competent admiral will circle the outpost at max range and simply obliterate any ship that tries to claim it. What few victory tokens you might claim won't mean much next to the smoldering wreckage of the ships that claimed them.

You're correct in that going second *should* allow you to fire first, letting them move into range however.... Ackbar CR90 lists will have all but the most ship-intensive lists totally outmatched on activations, and so you will STILL be forced to move into range first.

If you're going squadron heavy, there's no chance at all that you'll be able to control position via activation order.

Good thoughts....

Its problematic. Not that I would know - still no wave 2 here (Tuesday all being well!).

I have this idea that two ISDs starting at either end of the board and moving flat out at the isolated ends might be able to pull his formation apart and let you take them out piecemeal, while being fast enough that a single ISD wont be able to get pinned down and destroyed.

But I expect a hard learning curve.

Squadrons seem to be the most effective, focusing down Ackbar himself to take away the fleet's range advantage, but even that is rendered difficult by the need for a carrier ship to move nearly into firing range, and the fact that they will almost certainly have fighter escort.

Fortunately the empire has the only generic Rogue bombers. Gee, I wonder why that's the case...

They're expensive and can be tied down by fighters, but a couple turns of Firespray fire, coupled with a solid activation of TIE bombers with Boosted Comms (with or without Rhymer) should soften Ackbar's ship up a bit.

The Firespray 31, for as good as it is, can be totally shut down by even a cursory fighter screen. Rogues in general are more of the frosting on the cake, not the cake itself. Besides, at speed 3, I'd rather take TIE bombers and use Corrupter to toss them distance 5 with a Jumpmaster in tow.

I get what you're saying, but the Firespray is simply *not* an answer to Ackbar, considering that an inferior number of points in Rebel squadrons will take them out of the fight for the majority of the game.

I agree it's not an end-all solution. Taking 6-7 Firesprays (to say nothing of the cost of acquiring them) limits the ability to respond to enemy squadrons severely, which is why I suggested pairing them with other squadrons and Boosted Comms. 2-3 Firesrpays (36-54 points) leaves 80-98 points for additional squadrons if you go with a full squadron complement, so pairing them with a credible fighter screen and other bombers is not automatically precluded.

Just to use one example, three Firesprays, Rhymer, Dengar, two TIE bombers, and three TIE fighters (or two TIE Advanced, if you prefer Escort and more staying power) nets 10 squadrons for 132 points (9 squadrons with the TAs). If there's a concern about that being enough to tie down opposing squadrons, dropping Rhymer entirely and replacing Dengar with a generic Jumpmaster can add an additional 3 TIE Fighters (or another two TIE Advanced, if you prefer staying power). Add a Vic I Corruptor with Boosted Comms, and that's 9-10 squadrons plus the Vic for 214, leaving 184 for additional ships, upgrades, and a commander.

* * *

Fire Lanes is a losing proposition since the whole problem here is that Ackbar can put more dice on the field at long range than anyone else

* * *

I think Dras just ninja'd me on this (as he usually does), but I agree. The "Attack" section of the RRG seems to reference "Battery Armament" as the printed armament on a ship's attack card, and distinguishes "battery armament" from additional dice that are added during the modify dice stage of an attack (ala Ackbar, Enhanced Armament, CF dials, etc.).

I do agree that Most Wanted seems like the safest choice for a red objective in an Ackbar-filled world.

... distinguishes "battery armament" from additional dice that are added during the modify dice stage of an attack (ala Ackbar, Enhanced Armament, CF dials, etc.).

Enhanced Armament does increase Battery Armament. Its one of the Few ... (Expanded Launchers and Rapid Reload being the others off the top of my head)

... distinguishes "battery armament" from additional dice that are added during the modify dice stage of an attack (ala Ackbar, Enhanced Armament, CF dials, etc.).

Enhanced Armament does increase Battery Armament. Its one of the Few ... (Expanded Launchers and Rapid Reload being the others off the top of my head)

Doh. Just goes to show that rereading a card before posting about it is always a good idea. But Ackbar would not, right?

(You've shaken my confidence now, Dras. )

As a player that plays both factions, Ackbar doesn't bother me so much. If I only had Imperial lists I would definitely be frustrated about how easy and powerful Ackbar plays.

That said I'm actually playing a lot more empire to try to solve the problem to not only Ackbar but also Turbo Laser Reroute on MC30cs and Cr90s. (I have been destroyed in my last two games by them). So far the main thing I've found is that i generally "win" the squad game. The cheaper bombers, better IMHO villains pretty much rule. However by themselves I don't think they are the answer.

You are correct on the other points...

The specific wording you need to look out for is "Battery Armament"...

If it increases the Battery Armament, then it helps with Fire lanes.

If you Add to the Dice Pool, then its Squat. Two Fistfuls of Squat.

I don't know what Squat is, but I have a feeling I wouldn't actually want Two Fistfuls of it...

Technically speaking, Ackbar works at a specific time. It only works when you decide before the attack step, and then during an attack against a Ship...

Fire lanes you total up your Battery Armament, which is, of course, outside of the Attack steps.

... distinguishes "battery armament" from additional dice that are added during the modify dice stage of an attack (ala Ackbar, Enhanced Armament, CF dials, etc.).

Enhanced Armament does increase Battery Armament. Its one of the Few ... (Expanded Launchers and Rapid Reload being the others off the top of my head)

Doh. Just goes to show that rereading a card before posting about it is always a good idea. But Ackbar would not, right?

(You've shaken my confidence now, Dras. )

Doh. Just goes to show that rereading a card before posting about it is always a good idea. But Ackbar would not, right?

(You've shaken my confidence now, Dras. )

You are correct on the other points...

The specific wording you need to look out for is "Battery Armament"...

If it increases the Battery Armament, then it helps with Fire lanes.

If you Add to the Dice Pool, then its Squat. Two Fistfuls of Squat.

I don't know what Squat is, but I have a feeling I wouldn't actually want Two Fistfuls of it...

Technically speaking, Ackbar works at a specific time. It only works when you decide before the attack step, and then during an attack against a Ship...

Fire lanes you total up your Battery Armament, which is, of course, outside of the Attack steps.

Derp, yeah, I was wildly misinterpreting Ackbar's interaction with Fire Lanes.

Okay, that actually opens up some interesting options.

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer here, I'm *genuinely* curious ... ... ...

Unfortunately, you do come across a bit of that right now, by dismissing things out of hand...

Stay Positive!

Look at the things you Can influence... Setup of Objective Positioning, as well as Terrain, as well as where you are in relation to said objectives, Will make a difference.

Look at Fire Lanes. Ackbar does not effect Fire Lanes. At All. So even if they're loading up on 54pt EA CR90As, they're adding 2 Reds at Long Range, and adding a Blue at Medium... Sure, they might be able to dive Cr90s into that battle to get to your tokens, but they're Cr90s that have to overdice you without Ackbar. And if those Objectives are on your side of the Table - which includes the Contested Outpost... They're not going to be Scoring Points for Securing that Objective unless they Dive in... You Be There and you very quickly regain the losses you suffer in those points, as long as your return fire is even modest at best...

And honestly, the idea of your "Biggest Issue" with Ackbar was the same thing people have been talking about as the "Biggest Issue" of Screed+Demolisher Lists...

I'm not as fussed. There are ways to manipulate things, but they have to deal with an overall strategy, rather than a simple quick fix. We'll get there, I think we're all jsut too new with this Wave-2 Stuff to see the total picture...

It almost feels like the early days where everyone was Concentrating Fire and few people were Navigating or Engineering to save their lives... So I'm sure we'll evolve.

You're not wrong.

The Dark Side clouds my thinking. Need to spend more time playing, less time cursing the fish-man.

You're not wrong.

Nicest Compliment I've been paid in a While in one of these threads - Thankyou

I am not trying to be Debbie Downer here, I'm *genuinely* curious ... ... ...

Unfortunately, you do come across a bit of that right now, by dismissing things out of hand...

Stay Positive!

Look at the things you Can influence... Setup of Objective Positioning, as well as Terrain, as well as where you are in relation to said objectives, Will make a difference.

Look at Fire Lanes. Ackbar does not effect Fire Lanes. At All. So even if they're loading up on 54pt EA CR90As, they're adding 2 Reds at Long Range, and adding a Blue at Medium... Sure, they might be able to dive Cr90s into that battle to get to your tokens, but they're Cr90s that have to overdice you without Ackbar. And if those Objectives are on your side of the Table - which includes the Contested Outpost... They're not going to be Scoring Points for Securing that Objective unless they Dive in... You Be There and you very quickly regain the losses you suffer in those points, as long as your return fire is even modest at best...

And honestly, the idea of your "Biggest Issue" with Ackbar was the same thing people have been talking about as the "Biggest Issue" of Screed+Demolisher Lists...

I'm not as fussed. There are ways to manipulate things, but they have to deal with an overall strategy, rather than a simple quick fix. We'll get there, I think we're all jsut too new with this Wave-2 Stuff to see the total picture...

It almost feels like the early days where everyone was Concentrating Fire and few people were Navigating or Engineering to save their lives... So I'm sure we'll evolve.

You're not wrong.

The Dark Side clouds my thinking. Need to spend more time playing, less time cursing the fish-man.

I look forward to the cries of "ZOMG ADMIRAL SNACKBAR IS BROKEN?!"

I too look forward to this, as I crush his flag ship beneath mine!!!!!

Or die in a storm or red dice. Both are good.