One FFG developer specifically said that pass rule was instituted not only to balance out the 4x4 issue, but also give more value to unique figures. They also said that Return to Hoth was the best that Imperial Assault can be. That, for one, has me very excited. But I'm also wondering if there will be some command cards/skirmish upgrades included that can only be played on a unique figure?

Personally, I hate errata or nerfs in games. I think it's better to prop up what is weaker instead of weaken what is stronger.

The best way to fix 4x4 is a rule change: You can only bring 2 of any group.

Problem solved for both guards and officers.

If you want to bring more than 2 of a particular type of group, you can always bring the elite ones, you just have to pay for them.

There aren't really any other competitive lists that involve more than 2 of a single group anyways. Maybe some sabs, but honestly, we don't need sab spam either.

This rule should add more variety in the figures people bring.

Agreed.

Unconnected ideas on the topic:

Just observing the top 16 lists at worlds: a higher proportion of unique figures appear in them than of common figures. This might mean that the disparity is less between common and unique and between the best figures and everything else (or it might not but it's worth thinking about at least).

One thing that's obvious about unique figures is that they generally have less health per point than non-unique. This is because group figures have reduced effectiveness at certain health points (when one figure dies) whereas single figures do not.

I feel like the way points are structured in this game it is really hard to make up for relative inefficiencies in deployment cards. Unless you put hard stats in them upgrade cards then Garkhan (for instance) will always be worse than royal guards.

Regular Groups capped at 4 made sense when there was not enough model diversity to support various builds. Now with several waves out and even more on the way, 2 of any group makes sense. But I would take it one step further and limit Elite groups to 1 as well.

I expect we will see sweeping changes to the skirmish game once Return to Hoth is in our hands, (not to mention 4-way skirmish battles!) and I look forward to that.

Limit elites to 1? Why? You would damage so much with that. No more 2 elite trandoshaner for scum? No more 2 elite stormies for Kayn? Make sorin completly useluss even in fluff games with no more 2 elite probe droids or 2 tanks? Why would you even need the unique status any more if you do that?

Sorry but if you limit elites to 1 I think too many things would die in this game.

Regular Groups capped at 4 made sense when there was not enough model diversity to support various builds. Now with several waves out and even more on the way, 2 of any group makes sense. But I would take it one step further and limit Elite groups to 1 as well.

I expect we will see sweeping changes to the skirmish game once Return to Hoth is in our hands, (not to mention 4-way skirmish battles!) and I look forward to that.

Sweeping rules changes concern me. It just makes me think that they'll throw the baby out with the bath water and something unexpected will be lost or ruined. I think any game should correct itself naturally and gradually, or at least that that's the best way. But that's just my opinion and this is my first minatures game. Do most minatures games go back and make huge corrections as you've suggested here? Is that common?

Limiting elite groups to 1 is probably a little too extreme of a change.

Limiting regular groups to 2 should be a relatively minor change and they could see where things go from there.

@Boba Rick: I don't know about most miniature games. It's been quite a while since I was into Hammer and Hammer40K. However, it could be a long while before releases makes up for the strength of say 4x4 or Rebel Sabs. All the while, playing Scum is an uphill battle, and diversity is limited. Sometimes it's better to make sacrifices for the longevity of the game. The pass rule for instance, makes a lot of sense to me and one has to wonder why it wasn't there in the first place.

Trouble is, if you want the three factions to have different feels and paths to victory, and one faction has an over-the-top strong deployment card, either you have to print a similar for the rest, leaving the current in the dust - or tone the few culprits down a notch. That could be errata to the RG card itself, or a limit to the number of copies. I think a limit to the number of copies is the way to go personally, and would fit very nicely with FFGs general business model (at least for their LCGs) that you don't need to own multiples of the same expansion.

By "sweeping changes" I meant in the regard to the addition 4-player (free for all, 1 v 1 v 1 v 1) skirmish games into the mix as opposed to just two player 1 v 1 games. We're going to see a shift in the dynamic of the game. Maybe even a shift in the tournament dynamic if 4-player is added to the 2016 season in some way shape or form. The core of 2-player 1 v 1 skirmish will see, at most, minor tweaks, if any change at all.

As for "up to 1" elite unit, I agree that in the current state of the game, that ***it is harsh***, but in future waves with figure proliferation this would be mitigated by available options. Once Hoth comes out, there will be 3 different regular and elite stormtrooper deployment cards, I am sure that Kayn would function just fine with a single Elite Storm, Snow and Heavy in the mix. (In fact, that right there is 37 points)

Sure, but it is all efficient to have to replace an elite trooper for an elite heavy or to even pay a point more for an elite snowtrooper.

If you have to need to limit a card to a one time you can just make her unique.

Errata is already a big enough pain to keep track of and remember. Just do the 'only 2 copies of a group' rule for skirmish. I don't want to start having to remember that RG and etc are different than what is printed on the card.

Or just do a restricted list. Or print a seperate RG blister with a skirmish version which is the legal one.

But please, if you do this change to the RG give the imps something worth playing .... the new pack is ... nice but not good

Something has to be done about the Royal Guards. Everything else is fine ...

It's Reach on the RG that really makes them good. But I agree, limit 2 per group. It will shake up the meta.

There is so much that makes Royal Guards great. Good health, a good attack pool, great surge abilities, good speed, reach, protector, and vengeance. Even good traits for command cards. You could take away any one of those things, maybe even any two, and they'd still be very good, very efficient. They come up *just short* of being truly overpowered. One group, even two, is manageable. But fielding four groups -- eight figures -- of Royal Guards, with or without Imperial Officers, is overwhelming.

I guess that's my roundabout way of agreeing that limiting people to two of any single deployment card would be a good solution without making errata for specific cards. Or maybe just a restricted list that is limited to two of in a list.

The best way to fix 4x4 is a rule change: You can only bring 2 of any group.

Problem solved for both guards and officers.

If you want to bring more than 2 of a particular type of group, you can always bring the elite ones, you just have to pay for them.

There aren't really any other competitive lists that involve more than 2 of a single group anyways. Maybe some sabs, but honestly, we don't need sab spam either.

This rule should add more variety in the figures people bring.

Our group house rules this for kit tournaments. Except we go further, 2 of any deployment type. So you can only have 2 officers, whether they're elite or regular. This have really shaken up and its a LOT of fun again!

I absolutley support the 1 elite, 2 regular (my personal suggestion) or just 2 of each policy (very good suggestion), in fact I support anything that limits the horde thing.

The Royal Guards are just terribly balanced, simple truth. Its not that they just have reach, but they also have stun, +2dmg, move 5, focus when somebody dies, protector, high health... well you know what they have. Its the combination of all of that which makes them so unbalanced compared to other 8p units.

So general question what would they have to cost to be balanced if you keep everything else the same?

Limit elites to 1? Why? You would damage so much with that. No more 2 elite trandoshaner for scum? No more 2 elite stormies for Kayn? Make sorin completly useluss even in fluff games with no more 2 elite probe droids or 2 tanks? Why would you even need the unique status any more if you do that?

Sorry but if you limit elites to 1 I think too many things would die in this game.

Yup this is true

Does anyone suggesting limiting elites to 1 know any overpowered combos of 2 elites? I guess not. So why suggest that? Might as well draw a dot/square on every elite card name then.

Limiting non-elites to 2 cards seems like a brilliant idea to fight the spam though

So general question what would they have to cost to be balanced if you keep everything else the same?

Maybe 10 points?