Truly so awful art in Cirdan card, there was other cards earlier which look so bad, like Both Theodens specially the (spirit) Theoden was so badly drawn.

Please would it be possible that the person who made art for the (lore) Glorfindel and hero Grima, would do art to all Hero cards?

Cirdan doesnt look an elf at all, just a human whit white beard.

Oh boy...

You know, I always kinda roll my eyes when podcasters (Matthew) and other players always avoid the forums because they're such a nasty place, full of trolls, etc. I don't think that's quite true you know, they're kinda exaggerating. But man, now I'm praying that none of the artists of this game ever come around here.

Truly so awful art in Cirdan card, there was other cards earlier which look so bad, like Both Theodens specially the (spirit) Theoden was so badly drawn.

Please would it be possible that the person who made art for the (lore) Glorfindel and hero Grima, would do art to all Hero cards?

Cirdan doesnt look an elf at all, just a human whit white beard.

Lol--wow. Bold, lobbying for no more Magali heroes, lol.

Jokes aside, art is so much a matter of personal taste that you could say this about a lot of cards. Like, personally I love Tactics Theoden's art (hate the CARD, but...dat art). But I agree with you about Spirit Theoden. Hell, I'm sure someone even likes Brand Son of Bain's art. Subjective.

That being said, I do think that some better direction could have been given to the artist for Cirdan...

Oh boy...

You know, I always kinda roll my eyes when podcasters (Matthew) and other players always avoid the forums because they're such a nasty place, full of trolls, etc. I don't think that's quite true you know, they're kinda exaggerating. But man, now I'm praying that none of the artists of this game ever come around here.

Hey hey hey.

I've never seen such negativity on BGG's LOTR page. I've never seen it on COTRs. I've never seen it on TGC's. (full disclosure: it may be there - and i've missed it)

But it's here quite often.

Heck, people were dropping the f-bomb over whether Spirit Glorfindel is overpowered not two days ago. Trolololo threatened to "kill me." The "triggered" versus "passive" discussion was downright ridiculous.

The forums are full of "is this game dying" or endless flame wars (whether about the game itself or feminism or some other silly thing). It's simply not present (or at least rare) anywhere else.

Roll your eyes all ya want - it's a pretty universal criticism and I'm no where close to the only one who feels the same way.

Well all those other forums are boring. This is the only online community I have ever really enjoyed and felt drawn to and felt a part of. Maybe a little negativity is good and people need to be less sensative.

Trololo's banning was stupid, and I was one of the people who got into with him. I have received two warnings, so maybe I will be banned as well one day.

One warning was for the feminist thing because some feminists wanted to complain about the sex ism of Tolkien. I thought all my responses were strong but reasonable. People attacked me and cussed at me for my beliefs, but I just went silent to diffuse things.

Second time was the annoying jerk who showed and started acting smarter than everyone for like two days, on a blitz comment run. I pointed out where he was clearly wrong on something (not important). I just ask that he be more humble. He is still free to post and I even want him to, but he disappeared and I got a warning. Shrug.

So maybe I am one of the negative people you refer to, but I don't see myself that way. Everyone is free to speak their mind, but if you say something dumb I'm not going to give you a hug and a high five. I'm going to say it's dumb. I have respect for truth, for myself, for the smart people here, and for you. That sounds better, to me, than a safe space where nobody is challenged. And it's more fun.

I like the Cirdan art, and the Santa... I mean Sp Theoden art. I've only had a problem with green skin Rossiel, Steven Segal Native American Elrond ally, and the middle school quality on Harbor Master and alternative Aragorn. All in all the art in this game is incredible.

I wish there was some way to use technology to force people to make eye contact before they were allowed to say anything on forums. I understand that there are cultural and language issues that further complicate communication, but the semi-anonymous nature of forums just seems to foster bad behavior. I absolutely thrive on having in-depth discussions about nerdy topics with friends, and things can even get heated when people hold passionate views, but the one unspoken rule is a baseline of respect. Most people here hold to that baseline, but it only takes a few bad actors to ruin a public space for everyone.

I am not going to avoid the forums, and I agree that spirited debate is precisely what makes them interesting, but I do wish that there was more of a sense of mutual respect. My life is busy, I have many responsibilities and I choose to spend some of my free time involved in this community. For the most part, that has proven very worthwhile, but I honestly have no time for know-it-alls and people with limited social skills. By no means am I an expert, and I enjoy learning from others and differing viewpoints really do expand my understanding and appreciation for the game. At the end of the day, it doesn't take that much effort to be civil - no matter how vehemently you disagree with someone. I would much prefer to spend my time with others who feel likewise. In real-life interactions where someone is a jerk, you can avoid interacting with them in the future. That is not possible on a public forum like this without resorting to bans.

I have never complained about anyone to the admins and I'm not going to start now. A police-state is not really a solution to improve civility. Ultimately, it takes everyone choosing to speak to each other a certain way, but if enough people don't agree that there is even a problem then nothing changes. Most likely, those of us who want a higher level of discourse are left on the outside and the current level remains the status quo. I suspect that there are enough people who disagree with me and think that the forums are fine. That is the nature of a sub-culture, it gets to define its own norms for social interaction. I appreciate this reality, and fighting it is ultimately spitting into the wind. Still, I can hope for something better.

I think artists are pretty accustomed with the criticism, even such harsh, so they won't nod an ear from post like this even if they see them, don't worry. Hell, they're getting paid for drawing an awesome art for an awesome game - they're aknowledged for their skill already, an anrgy forum post won't sway dat a bit.

Oh boy...

You know, I always kinda roll my eyes when podcasters (Matthew) and other players always avoid the forums because they're such a nasty place, full of trolls, etc. I don't think that's quite true you know, they're kinda exaggerating. But man, now I'm praying that none of the artists of this game ever come around here.

Hey hey hey.

I've never seen such negativity on BGG's LOTR page. I've never seen it on COTRs. I've never seen it on TGC's. (full disclosure: it may be there - and i've missed it)

But it's here quite often.

Heck, people were dropping the f-bomb over whether Spirit Glorfindel is overpowered not two days ago. Trolololo threatened to "kill me." The "triggered" versus "passive" discussion was downright ridiculous.

The forums are full of "is this game dying" or endless flame wars (whether about the game itself or feminism or some other silly thing). It's simply not present (or at least rare) anywhere else.

Roll your eyes all ya want - it's a pretty universal criticism and I'm no where close to the only one who feels the same way.

CotR and TGC aren't forums - it's kind of a different variety of interactions. As for BGG, I've taken a look there a couple of times, and it always seemed like there was way less discussion going on there than here, so I just came right back. And essentially I think that's the difference - there's more discussion here, and the more discussion there is, the more likely it becomes that someone will act like a **** or a moron. But that doesn't invalidate the rest of the discussions.

Personally, there have been a few occasions where I've decided to just stop responding to a thread (or a specific argument going on within a thread) because I can see that I'd have a less frustrating time talking to an aggressively offensive and opinionated brick wall. Sometimes I roll my eyes, facepalm, sigh deeply or mutter obscenities at my screen in response to things I perceive as stupid, heated arguments between people spectacularly missing each others points, flame-wars between two sides neither of which seem to realise how rude they're being to the other, and so on. But despite all that, I still feel there's enough worthwhile discussion here that I keep coming back for it.

Oh, and I see nothing wrong with the Cirdan art.

Truly so awful art in Cirdan card, there was other cards earlier which look so bad, like Both Theodens specially the (spirit) Theoden was so badly drawn.

Please would it be possible that the person who made art for the (lore) Glorfindel and hero Grima, would do art to all Hero cards?

Cirdan doesnt look an elf at all, just a human whit white beard.

Different folks, different strokes. If I would rate the art of all hero cards, the first Theoden hero (drawn by Magali) would end up somewhere at the top, and Grima and Lore Glorfindel somewhere at the bottom.

I've only had a problem with green skin Rossiel...

What, do you seriously mean Rossiel, perhaps the coolest looking hero in the game?

Hey hey hey.

I've never seen such negativity on BGG's LOTR page. I've never seen it on COTRs. I've never seen it on TGC's. (full disclosure: it may be there - and i've missed it)

But it's here quite often.

Heck, people were dropping the f-bomb over whether Spirit Glorfindel is overpowered not two days ago. Trolololo threatened to "kill me." The "triggered" versus "passive" discussion was downright ridiculous.

The forums are full of "is this game dying" or endless flame wars (whether about the game itself or feminism or some other silly thing). It's simply not present (or at least rare) anywhere else.

Roll your eyes all ya want - it's a pretty universal criticism and I'm no where close to the only one who feels the same way.

I didn't want to open this can of worms, I was just using you as an example to comment on OP's outrageous and, IMO, totally unjustified opinion.

But speaking seriously, is it really true that these forums are "full" of such posts you speak of? Really, when was the last time someone said the game was dying in here? I can't remember. In fact, the last time I saw such post about the future life of the game/is the game dying, was precisely on BGG. (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1478254/games-support-and-life-cycle). So yeah, to be honest I still think you're exaggerating. The forum's bad reputation was warranted years ago, I agree, when Glaurung, Trololo and booored were rampart and posting very harsh comments very often. But nowadays I actually think the good, insightful and respectful users outweight the mean ones by far. But maybe that's because I don't dend to read the very long and drawn out threads about technical issues of the game. The Light of Valinor thread I admit I got bored halfway in, and just commented on Dan's post, but even then I think the "flame war" in there was exceptional.

Apologies to the original poster for totally (unintentionally) hijacking their thread.

At the end of the day, this is a game - and a co-op one at that. Nothing to fight over. Nothing to threaten killing over. Nothing to get in pissing matches over.

I, too, have never reported anyone to the admins, as that's not my style. I cut my teeth working 8 years in politics. That's a million times worse than here. Heck, look at any comments on any political article anywhere and it's a million times worse. I can handle it.

But, when it comes to something I enjoy as a hobby - I don't want to come here to engage in rude debates. You can be passionate and considerate (i.e., adult) without being insulting.

Maybe that's me being pie-in-the-sky and others thrive on winning the argument or debate - by any means - but the older I get, the less time I have for that kind of approach.

It really is free of charge to be kind/polite. And that doesn't preclude passion.

/endrant.

Also, full disclosure Matt (I saw your recent facebook post, I obviously won't comment on there as I will most likely get lynched) I do like you! And I always want to hear you on the podcast (shame you weren't on the last one), precisely because you make more categorical and entertaining comments.

I don't mind Rossiel as a whole. I am just annoyed by her skin color (boy can that get me in trouble taken out of context...) The color makes her look semi orcish. It's just something that annoys me and I can't unsee it. If you think she looks cool then more power to you.

I wish there was some way to use technology to force people to make eye contact before they were allowed to say anything on forums. I understand that there are cultural and language issues that further complicate communication, but the semi-anonymous nature of forums just seems to foster bad behavior. I absolutely thrive on having in-depth discussions about nerdy topics with friends, and things can even get heated when people hold passionate views, but the one unspoken rule is a baseline of respect. Most people here hold to that baseline, but it only takes a few bad actors to ruin a public space for everyone.

I am not going to avoid the forums, and I agree that spirited debate is precisely what makes them interesting, but I do wish that there was more of a sense of mutual respect. My life is busy, I have many responsibilities and I choose to spend some of my free time involved in this community. For the most part, that has proven very worthwhile, but I honestly have no time for know-it-alls and people with limited social skills. By no means am I an expert, and I enjoy learning from others and differing viewpoints really do expand my understanding and appreciation for the game. At the end of the day, it doesn't take that much effort to be civil - no matter how vehemently you disagree with someone. I would much prefer to spend my time with others who feel likewise. In real-life interactions where someone is a jerk, you can avoid interacting with them in the future. That is not possible on a public forum like this without resorting to bans.

I have never complained about anyone to the admins and I'm not going to start now. A police-state is not really a solution to improve civility. Ultimately, it takes everyone choosing to speak to each other a certain way, but if enough people don't agree that there is even a problem then nothing changes. Most likely, those of us who want a higher level of discourse are left on the outside and the current level remains the status quo. I suspect that there are enough people who disagree with me and think that the forums are fine. That is the nature of a sub-culture, it gets to define its own norms for social interaction. I appreciate this reality, and fighting it is ultimately spitting into the wind. Still, I can hope for something better.

1st, QFT! Dan nails it here. I agree 100%

See what happend here? A troll post spinned into this debate.

Just don't feed the trolls guys....which is hard sometimes I know.

You will never regret being kind. -Buddha

Curious: who opened this OP is his message number 1.

I don't think that someone who posts their opinion (which is that the art of a hero looks awful) is a troll.

I don't think that someone who posts their opinion (which is that the art of a hero looks awful) is a troll.

People have a very twisted concept of a "troll" term nowdays. They attach it to anything they don't like.

I also agree, posting one's opinion about art isn't a troll post. Speaking of CoTR they've commented on good and bad art many times. Which is totally fine. Art is subjective and not everyone can agree. Some people are too "protective" of the game and take any negative comment about it as a personal attack against them because they play the game. There are sooo many cards in this game that it's impossible that every card's art would be amazing to every player. IMO overall the set in this game is an A+++, but there are 10 or so cards that I really don't care for (spirit theoden being the top of that list for me).

To the OP: according to tolkien cirdan did have a beard!

Subjective or not, there's ways and ways to comment about art. If I dislike a particular artist or art piece, I will respectfully state my opinion and then ask everyone's else's opinion to see what I may or may not be seeing or getting wrong. Starting your opinion with "Truly so awful art on Cirdan" and then requesting for most of the artists to be fired from the game is NOT the respectful way to do it. I'm all for subjective and civil art discussion, but it seriously baffles me that people are actually defending OP. Remember when Dan commented recently about how many absolutes get thrown around here? Well, OP's is one of the harshest I've ever read in these forums.

I fully agree that a person's own art preferences are their own right as is their decision to post about that opinion in a public speech forum.

However....

Please do not think that artists are thick skinned and don't care. I know a fair number of artists who are paid for their work and they can all tend to be hurt by negative criticism. 5 minutes after finishing a piece they often already think they could have done better. They are always chasing "better" and thus often critical of their own work. Being paid for it heightens the anxiety and insecurity rather than making it better.

So if somebody doesn't like some art, fair enough that is your want and choice. If you wish to discuss the aspects you don't like, also fair, the artist may even get useful constructive info from it. BUT please don't think it cant hurt. For me it's better to "assume" it does hurt, then as such decide if it's worth mentioning and if-so, is it a quiet PM to the manufacturers or a public debate? If it's a debate, then "how best do I word this if I were speaking directly to the artist?"

Free speech. So if you want to say something then go for it. If you then want to hurt feelings, still go for it... but know you are doing it. (And personally I don't think anyone should be intentionally hurting feelings).

For me, I like some LotR art more than others but do like and respect it all. Its all better than I could ever do and does look great. Don't think they are paid a kings ransom for it either.

THE GAME IS DYING! SEE, THE PLAYERS ARE EVEN TURNING ON EACH OTHER!

All jokes aside, I agree with Dan.

This is a hub of many people from many countries. Some people are used to speak without flair, just straightup against each other and just what they think. Maybe they could change their tone a bit when they're presenting themselves here. Other way around is that some people shouldn't get offended to quickly.

We just have to make it work together! I recently got a message from Ecthelion and he contacted me via that way to me about positivity. It was really nice what he said, but the point is that we could use a bit more of that, and people like him. I noticed that I spend quite some time defending people, as you might think the 'wrong' people. I don't believe those exist. We should measure everybody with the same measurements and not deem one evil because he could be related to someone who is commonly seen as evil. I don't hate anyone or anything, but I hate that. Prejudgements.

Two other points I wanted to adress.

I have said this before, but I don't think it's that bad.

We tend to remember the evil/bad things the most in our lives and here on the forums as well. Let's be honest, the last time a 'the game is dying' thread popped up here, must have been ages ago. The last one I know of was posted on BBG and that was roughly six months ago. Some threads here might be way to detailed for all of us, but there are people who enjoy that. I for one enjoy lore and spoilers. The thread about Q&A tolkien lore was a heaven for me. Sadly, Rich departed and with him one of the key suppliers of comments. But, that was awesome. The rules section is awesome as people politely help each other out. The strategy section is full of enthousiastic people who are willingly sharing every deck or idea they have to either give you inspiration or help you improve your deck. The spoilertopics are a lot of fun too, you can read the spoilers, share your opinion and read about other opinions. Someone might have already discovered a combo you didn't see or you can discuss a card's art.

I agree also with Giz about the fact that there tends to be more discussion here then on BBG. It's way less interesting for me.

Last, but certainly not least is that I would encourage people with certain 'power' and fame to not use their opportunities to reach our community to post negative comments that much. Podcasters/bloggers that is. Instead of posting 'Regretting reading the forums because this and this thread' they could take their time as well and say: 'interesting deck here and here, really cool.'

My point is that if we keep saying the forums are bad, they'll remain that way. Add to this that a lot of people tend to agree with celebraties much faster and it ain't helping that much. When Beyonce says 'Eating meat is bad' a lot of people think 'well, she says eating mead is bad, so it must be true.' I would like to avoid that effect and would advise against such a pollicy.

A disclaimer as always: I don't intend to offend anyone. Certainly not the bloggers and podcasters I spoke to in this post, because we're all entitled to our own opinion and we are free to post and say whatever we want. I am not ordering anyone to do anything.

Now, I am going to vote again for Grima in our awesome hero poll!

Last, but certainly not least is that I would encourage people with certain 'power' and fame to not use their opportunities to reach our community to post negative comments that much. Podcasters/bloggers that is. Instead of posting 'Regretting reading the forums because this and this thread' they could take their time as well and say: 'interesting deck here and here, really cool.'

My point is that if we keep saying the forums are bad, they'll remain that way. Add to this that a lot of people tend to agree with celebraties much faster and it ain't helping that much. When Beyonce says 'Eating meat is bad' a lot of people think 'well, she says eating mead is bad, so it must be true.' I would like to avoid that effect and would advise against such a pollicy.

A disclaimer as always: I don't intend to offend anyone. Certainly not the bloggers and podcasters I spoke to in this post, because we're all entitled to our own opinion and we are free to post and say whatever we want. I am not ordering anyone to do anything.

I often post deck ideas (typically from BGG, mind you) and other cool nuggets on TGC's FB page more often than not - certainly more than I've ever complained about the forums.

I know you aren't saying I never post positive things or cool ideas - but I'm pointing out that 99.9% of my posts on the FB page are positive. In fact, I think the Forum post is the first (slightly) critical post I've ever made. Now, my on-air comments are another thing...

You might be right that my opinions are colored by the Forums a few years ago - but I swear every time I re-visit the forums I find some ridiculous fight about this or that (feminism, passive vs. trigger, etc.) - it never seems to end - even if perhaps it has decreased in frequency. I don't run into these issues on BGG - and I find the discussion there just as interesting (if not as expansive).

I will say I've appreciated the civil tone of this discussion and with that said, I'll leave the Forums be. I'll refrain from speaking ill of them, and, most likely, refrain from visiting them.

Well, folks, that about wraps it up for me. I've been put on the same level as Beyonce. Mission accomplished.

I guess I should put in a serious point here. I do agree with gandalfDK that we tend to remember the bad. I can have ten good interactions on these forums, but you'll bet that what I remember most is rolling my eyes at people flaming each other back and forth over some game rule or subjective opinion of the game. The forums have certainly been worse in the past, and there are many worthwhile moments here, otherwise I wouldn't bother posting at all. I may be a glutton for punishment in the game, but not in real life. But there also have been quite a few moments recently when I've seen posters just go off on each other for very little reason. I've seen debates in many other places, including at times even in this forum, where people express their opinions and disagree with each other without resorting to insults and passive aggressive behavior, so we can do better.

As far as how people conduct themselves, I too have never reported anyone for their behavior, and it's not likely something I'd do, but I really hate the mentality of "people just need to lighten up/have a thicker skin" and "that's the internet!". No. No matter where you are talking or in what format, you should treat others with respect, unless they disrespect you. Openly disagreeing with someone is fine. Those who are calling for more respectful behavior are not calling for the end of all debate and challenges. The fact that is sometimes missed is that creating a space where people are respected doesn't limit conversation and who takes part, it actually expands it because more people will actually feel encouraged to visit and participate in the forms. And that's better for the game and for all of us here. I'm not asking for perfection and 100% perfect behavior. We're all flawed humans. Just take a moment before posting something that might be questionable, take a walk for 10 minutes, go on about your day, and really think about what you want to say.