Hi there! My tactical marine has signature Storm Bolter with motion predictor and he always takes Kraken Bolts and Metal Storm Rounds on a mission.

Storm Bolter is a bolter that simply multiplies hits by 2. Kraken Bolts give it Pen 8 and Metal Storms are give it Blast 2 quality.

Now, my tac has two basic strategies. Anti-horde and anti-armor.

He always shoots with full-auto burst with BS modified with +20 from the action +10 from Motion Predictor and usually +10 from the target neing in half of the weapons range (which for Krakens is 150m by the way). I can also help myself by granting +5 from Ultramarines Squad Mode Abiliy (it also gives also a single re-roll per turn for entire team). That gives him +45 to BS test while shooting full auto burst. His BS characteristic is 62, so his effective BS equals 107.

This means that I need roll of 67 to hit with all 8 bullets on a shot. Considering that the average throw is 50, I consider this quite OP. Here's why:

In anti-horde mode: using Metal Storms each hit multiplies into 3 (2 from Blast and 1 from X Type). Usually they all hurt the enemy, so one round of shooting equals 8x3=24 horde damage.

In anti-armor mode: using Krakens each hit deals on average around 20dmg with Pen8. Summing it up gives 20x8=160dmg against heavily armoured (AR<=8[<=by the way, I didn't want this to look like *****]) enemy.

Isn't that just too much? My marine is Rank 2 and he already can kill Carnifexes with one full auto burst? Is it normal in Deathwatch or is this character broken?

Well, Storm Bolter is a mean bastard. Thing is, you shouldn't be able to use it in Full Auto mode if your group uses post-Errata stats, because those allow only for Single and Semi-Auto mode - and in Semi-Auto only every second DoS scores a hit. RoF was changed to S/4/-, so it's still 8 bullet exiting the muzzle, it just won't be so easy to connect all of them, and you lose +10 to BS.

Otherwise it's all right. Storm Bolter's cost of 20 Req is within the Signature Wargear talent's limits, which is available on the Rank 1 General table, so it's cool. I also suppose you already cleared the Respected renown threshold - seeing that you did so by Rank 2 is slightly too generous from your GM, but by no means impossible, especially if you're near the high end. I'm just a bit stingier, that's all

Now as a Tac, you can get a clip of spec-issue ammo for free, but remember that Errata raised the cost of Kraken rounds to 15 Req (now in line with the cost of Metal Storm) - with the Motion Predictor's 20, it's already 35 Req spent, so I imagine your supply is not endless. With a clip of 60, RoF 4 in Semi, and Storm, you have, what, 7.5 bursts out of one magazine? Admittedly, that's a ded killy 7.5 bursts, but still, it's not too much.

As for the Squad mode, it's very hard for me to imagine all team members are equipped with the necessary talents and such at Rank 2 to benefit from your Chapter ability (see Core 219, Using Chapter-Specific Abilities) unless you play an all-Ultramarine team, in which case you have a different problem. Anyway, it's not impossible with Forging the Bond or specific deeds, but the Cohesion cost would be so high that you wouldn't be able to use it more than 2 or 3 times, tops.

Here. Nerfed enough?

The Kill-Team can use the Chapter Squad Modes of the Team Leader without needing Forging The Bond.

The one bad thing about the Errata, is that the Kill-Team can't use the Suppressive Fire action without bringing a Heavy Bolter, Barrage Plasma Gun, Assault Cannon or Assault Shotgun.

The Kill-Team can use the Chapter Squad Modes of the Team Leader without needing Forging The Bond.

Only if he is a Tactical Marine and passes the Command test. "Tactical Expertise" special ability, Corebook p.85.

Found the deeds from RoB I was referring to (both are on page 82):

Defensive Genius : "If you are the leader, you may subtract 1 point from the Cohesion cost (to a minimum of 1) for any Codex Defensive Stance once per battle. Also, you may implement (and benefit from) any defensive stance from another Chapter in your Kill Team at an additional +1 to the Cohesion cost."

Strike Team Specialist does the same with Attack Patterns.

In addition to that, Brothers of the Blood , a Combat Mark of Distinction on page 92, allows all members to benefit from Chapter Squad Modes, but only if all members possess the mark.

The one bad thing about the Errata, is that the Kill-Team can't use the Suppressive Fire action without bringing a Heavy Bolter, Barrage Plasma Gun, Assault Cannon or Assault Shotgun.

Wow, I completely forgot that - thanks! It doesn't bother me too much (proper suppressing fire needs dakka , after all - bring a Heavy Bolter if you want to do it)*, but still, I might houserule to allow it on Semi-Auto for weapons with the Storm quality, because this is sort of the point of Storm weapons besides being able to hit Genestealers on a narrow corridor. Suppressive Fire also hits on every second DoS after all, so this wouldn't threaten game balance, real or imagined

* I do understand the wrongness of removing Full Auto from Bolters and I wouldn't mind keeping DW as a whole more in line with the TT rules. Then again, I also GM'd a few games with pre-errata stats, and it was such an utter mess, that I'm willing to bear with any fluff violations to avoid it ever happening again.

The Kill-Team can use the Chapter Squad Modes of the Team Leader without needing Forging The Bond.

Only if he is a Tactical Marine and passes the Command test. "Tactical Expertise" special ability, Corebook p.85.

Oath-Taking, Corebook p.228

"In addition to the listed Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities."

Found the deeds from RoB I was referring to (both are on page 82):

Defensive Genius : "If you are the leader, you may subtract 1 point from the Cohesion cost (to a minimum of 1) for any Codex Defensive Stance once per battle. Also, you may implement (and benefit from) any defensive stance from another Chapter in your Kill Team at an additional +1 to the Cohesion cost."

Strike Team Specialist does the same with Attack Patterns.

In addition to that, Brothers of the Blood , a Combat Mark of Distinction on page 92, allows all members to benefit from Chapter Squad Modes, but only if all members possess the mark.

The one bad thing about the Errata, is that the Kill-Team can't use the Suppressive Fire action without bringing a Heavy Bolter, Barrage Plasma Gun, Assault Cannon or Assault Shotgun.

Wow, I completely forgot that - thanks! It doesn't bother me too much (proper suppressing fire needs dakka , after all - bring a Heavy Bolter if you want to do it)*, but still, I might houserule to allow it on Semi-Auto for weapons with the Storm quality, because this is sort of the point of Storm weapons besides being able to hit Genestealers on a narrow corridor. Suppressive Fire also hits on every second DoS after all, so this wouldn't threaten game balance, real or imagined

* I do understand the wrongness of removing Full Auto from Bolters and I wouldn't mind keeping DW as a whole more in line with the TT rules. Then again, I also GM'd a few games with pre-errata stats, and it was such an utter mess, that I'm willing to bear with any fluff violations to avoid it ever happening again.

There are also Squad Mode abilities from the Jericho Reach sourcebook which allow the entire Kill-team to take an out of turn Suppressive Fire action, or otherwise rely on Full-Auto Attacks.

Oath-Taking, Corebook p.228

"In addition to the listed Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities."

It was changed in Errata:

"Gaining Squad Mode Abilities (page 219): The sentence

“Depending on the squad leader’s Speciality and Chapter, he will have access to a different selection of abilities which his Kill-team may then use during the course of the Mission” should change to

“Depending on the squad leader’s Speciality, he will have access to a different selection of Codex abilities which his Kill-team may then use during the course of the mission.”

Oath-Taking, Corebook p.228

"In addition to the listed Codex Squad Mode abilities the Kill-team will also have access to their leader's Chapter Squad Mode abilities."

It was changed in Errata:

"Gaining Squad Mode Abilities (page 219): The sentence

“Depending on the squad leader’s Speciality and Chapter, he will have access to a different selection of abilities which his Kill-team may then use during the course of the Mission” should change to

“Depending on the squad leader’s Speciality, he will have access to a different selection of Codex abilities which his Kill-team may then use during the course of the mission.”

Yes, they changed a section in 219, not 228. Here's another section from the Errata you omitted.

"Gaining Chapter Specific Abilities (page 219): Add the following sentence to this section, "Battle-Brothers may activate the Chapter abilities of their own Chapter even if the squad leader is not of the same Chapter, but these abilities will only affect the Battle-Brother and any members of his Kill-team that belong to the same Chapter."

Yes, they changed a section in 219, not 228.

But how the leader can use Chapter squad mode if he receives only the Code x abilites depending on the specialty ?

The way I understand this is that by default any player can call in any Squad Mode Ability that is available for him. The leader is important because he generates Cohesion points and picks the oath, not because he calls everything.

The available Codex abilities are decided by the oath, and each Marine can access his Chapter abilities. The Codex abilities are benefiting everyone, and Chapter abilities are benefiting only the members of the same Chapter. You can also get upgrades to change the latter.

I understand the same way: without upgrades you can't extend chapter-specific abilities to the non-members.

Yes, they changed a section in 219, not 228.

But how the leader can use Chapter squad mode if he receives only the Code x abilites depending on the specialty ?

As I previously quoted from the Oath-taking section, the team has access to the leader's Chapter Attack and Defense abilities. This has never been removed.

As I previously quoted from the Oath-taking section, the team has access to the leader's Chapter Attack and Defense abilities. This has never been removed.

You are right, the quoted part has not been removed. On the other hand, IIRC the consensus here was that its point has been made moot by other rule clarifications - in the sense that Chapter modes not benefiting Marines of other Chapters by default has been confirmed elsewhere.

This debate is a frequently returning one. I recall taking part in one not that long ago, where I think I used the exact same line on this very same forum you quoted now. I'll try to find the thread and link it here so we can stand on the shoulders on giants (and also because I don't remember the exact arguments)

Edit : It was this one , but it would be interesting to check a few others, too - a cursory search shows we're not the first to notice this. It needs to be added that sometimes I feel Core is nothing but a sloppy mess, and while that's not entirely true, inconsistencies like this are to be expected.

Also, herichimo was crazy invested in rule details, so his crunch arguments were almost always well-founded. I think he chased down and clarified more murky points than all others combined. Whatever happened to him, I wonder...

Edit 2 : Here's a quite concise run-down of Core and Errata Squad Mode rules complete with official FFG feedback, penned by another forum veteran, ak-73.

To get back to the beginning, storm bolter gets nerfed even more by the errata. In detail, the section about dealing type X damage to hordes:

'The sentence

“Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit”

should be changed to

“Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit per Attack" after all other Hits have been applied.'

So a full hit with normal bolter ammunition would eliminate 9 ( 8 +1 ) magnitude, and metalstorm 17 (or 18? not sure if 2 x 8 +1 or 2 x (8 + 1) ).

He always shoots with full-auto burst with BS modified with +20 from the action +10 from Motion Predictor and usually +10 from the target neing in half of the weapons range (which for Krakens is 150m by the way). I can also help myself by granting +5 from Ultramarines Squad Mode Abiliy (it also gives also a single re-roll per turn for entire team). That gives him +45 to BS test while shooting full auto burst. His BS characteristic is 62, so his effective BS equals 107.

This means that I need roll of 67 to hit with all 8 bullets on a shot. Considering that the average throw is 50, I consider this quite OP. Here's why:

In anti-horde mode: using Metal Storms each hit multiplies into 3 (2 from Blast and 1 from X Type). Usually they all hurt the enemy, so one round of shooting equals 8x3=24 horde damage.

In anti-armor mode: using Krakens each hit deals on average around 20dmg with Pen8. Summing it up gives 20x8=160dmg against heavily armoured (AR<=8[<=by the way, I didn't want this to look like *****]) enemy.

Isn't that just too much? My marine is Rank 2 and he already can kill Carnifexes with one full auto burst? Is it normal in Deathwatch or is this character broken?

Yes and no.

You'll actually be at more than +45 to hit. Both a Horde and a Big Stompy Monster will generally give you a bonus to hit. There will also be a penalty because they're generally making run actions towards you, but a net +15 isn't unreasonable, taking you to the theoretical maximum of +60.

BS62 is pretty good, by the way. That gives you a roll 'to hit' of 122, which means in practice you either get 8 hits or you jam.

Metal Storm isn't quite as good as you're suggesting - each hit does magnitude damage equal to the blast (2) but the +1 from explosive weapons damage only applies once, as far as I know. That means you actually put down (8x2+1) 17 magnitude. Not that that isn't a terrifying kill rate.

Kraken Penetrators against a 'fex..... Similar. A Kraken round is 1D10+9, Pen 8, Tearing. I can't remember what a 'fexs toughness bonus is off-hand, but even a warrior has a toughness bonus of 10. A fex is probably more like 12 or 16, and if it's either of those, you're looking at a kraken penetrator round only doing an average of 2-4 wounds per hit, because you apply toughness to each hit.

Even a Tyranid Prime from Oblivion's Edge - which isn't that big a monster - can take 18 such rounds to put down (or at least into critical wounds) - or slightly more than 2 turns of sustained fire.

At the same time, I agree. Storm Bolters are very, very powerful compared to...essentially any other weapon in the same bracket, because the Storm trait is incredibly nasty. I much prefer the Twin-linked trait, and it does make combi-bolters in Black Crusade much less ridiculous.

I suggested my MG to apply Errata to our games and he agreed to everything besides weapon profiles (yeah, I know I'm kinda strange asking MG to nerf my character while he objects).

So my tac is going to be somewhat nerfed.

@ Magnus Grendel

I used carnifex just as an example. I didn't remember how tough they were, just wanted to show what the problem was. Glad that carnifexes are safe regardless Last time we told our MG that we want to face some real threats, because up till now he was throwing cannon fodder at us, on every session. Maybe BSM's will eventually appear.

By the way guys, how hard would it be for a space marine to ask for a storm bolter with combi weapon? Adding combi melta to mine would make my tac as versatile as I can imagine.

I suggested my MG to apply Errata to our games and he agreed to everything besides weapon profiles (yeah, I know I'm kinda strange asking MG to nerf my character while he objects).

That's an... interesting decision (and, indeed, a funny situation). Did he say why? I'm honestly curious. Anyway, he might want to keep the game high-powered (a feasible choice), but, as you mentioned, enemies need to be adjusted to that.

By the way guys, how hard would it be for a space marine to ask for a storm bolter with combi weapon? Adding combi melta to mine would make my tac as versatile as I can imagine.

I don't think combi-weapons are modular to the extent that you could easily add or swap a combi-component on the same gun - a combi-weapon is a finished product with a fixed auxiliary weapon. Even if the combi-elements were interchangeable, Storm Bolter is essentially a combi-weapon already, as it has replaced the twin-linked (or combi-)bolter, so the slot is already occupied - adding a third one is probably heresy in the eyes of the Omnissiah

But to answer your question, a Storm Bolter with a Meltagun added is definitely not an STC-derived, mass-produced piece. Since it would be completely unique and custom-made, if I were to somehow contemplate introducing it, I'd put it in the higher range of artificer weapons, or even among Relics. It's GM territory, so you might want to talk to him - and start kissing up to the resident Forge Master to make awarding it believable in-game

I suggested my MG to apply Errata to our games and he agreed to everything besides weapon profiles (yeah, I know I'm kinda strange asking MG to nerf my character while he objects).

That's an... interesting decision (and, indeed, a funny situation). Did he say why? I'm honestly curious. Anyway, he might want to keep the game high-powered (a feasible choice), but, as you mentioned, enemies need to be adjusted to that.

By the way guys, how hard would it be for a space marine to ask for a storm bolter with combi weapon? Adding combi melta to mine would make my tac as versatile as I can imagine.

I don't think combi-weapons are modular to the extent that you could easily add or swap a combi-component on the same gun - a combi-weapon is a finished product with a fixed auxiliary weapon. Even if the combi-elements were interchangeable, Storm Bolter is essentially a combi-weapon already, as it has replaced the twin-linked (or combi-)bolter, so the slot is already occupied - adding a third one is probably heresy in the eyes of the Omnissiah

But to answer your question, a Storm Bolter with a Meltagun added is definitely not an STC-derived, mass-produced piece. Since it would be completely unique and custom-made, if I were to somehow contemplate introducing it, I'd put it in the higher range of artificer weapons, or even among Relics. It's GM territory, so you might want to talk to him - and start kissing up to the resident Forge Master to make awarding it believable in-game

That's what I thought - make it a relic. And make it award for a completion of campaign or sth like that. That's what I'd do if I was MG.

I agree. It is a good thing to have a personal goal set for your character, and owning a relic opens the doors to rich roleplaying experiences. Still, I have to ask: from a utilitarian point of view obtaining a one-shot melta weapon is not a huge boost in effectiveness. I your main concern is being more efficient against armour, why not just load up on dirt-cheap krak grenades and melta charges, or switch to a rocket launcher / other similarly versatile weapon?

Related question to GMs: do default side arms (bolt pistols and combat knifes) count against the limit of the five-hand rule?

I like the relic idea, especially as a personal quest of the character.

And I wouldn't like to invest very much in this "anti-armor" idea. Standard melta wpns and launchers are quite expensive and looking like an armor rack is quite uncool for a space marine...

Actually, rather than a combi-storm-bolter (which is starting to get into 'far too many barrels' territory) I'd make it a relic Storm Bolter with the Accurate trait.

Kraken or Hellfire rounds from an Accurate astartes bolter, especially with an appropriate scope, are devastating because those extra D10s hurt like hell. Meanwhile, you can switch back to metal storm rounds on rock-and-roll for crowd control.

That's why the Hesh-pattern and the Skapulan Bolter relic are so nasty - few weapons have both an option for automatic fire and accurate on their single shots. Arms Master is a distinction which allows you to do it, too, I think.

The storm bolter is already kind of a combi weapon, it being an upgraded twinlinked bolter.

Pre-errata, the storm bolter with those add-ons is somewhat expensive, but murderous.

Post-errata, the setup is more expensive and requires more DoS to pull off. Excellent combo but it actually has drawbacks.

Personally, I find that the fire selector in DW makes reloading almost pointless for a storm bolter. The DH2 version has one clip, but one that can contain multiple ammunition types.