Okay, so I have a player (2 in fact) who play combat oriented characters. A bounty hunter and hired gun for reference. Both have Melee as career skills, and both have at least 2 points in the skill. I'm wondering if anyone has ever considered a Parry capability outside of the force user talents? I would think someone with a combat focus and skills in Melee would know how to Parry a vibrosword with their own vibrosword. They may not be anywhere near as adept as a Jedi, but blocking a melee weapon with another melee weapon is a pretty basic skill. Just curious if anyone has ever put any thought into it.

Not extremely much thought, but some.

Strictly speaking the lightsaber form trees aren't force user trees, for the most part, that is they don't have too many force talents. They do of course have some, which is arguably a "wasted" talent for a non-force user, but shii-cho for instance doesn't have more than three, and only one you have to take to get to the bottom row. So you could just pick up that and you'd have to use 20XP - arguably a lot - to get dedication, durable and the last parry talent.

Of course it could feel limiting and forced to have to pick this tree, or another and waste potentially more XP to get some benefits from parry, but I think that if you as a player want to focus on melee, this is the best way to go (if I ever get to do it, I want to make a marauder/shii-cho knight combo [two rerolls on melee checks!]). You get three parry talents without having to spend XP on force talent and quite a nice bunch of other talents too, like improved parry.

You could, if you want to start meddling with the trees, allow a few (max 2) and certain talents in the marauder tree - like feral strength or frenzied attack, perhaps also lethal blows - to be exchanged for parry. But then I'd be hesitant about letting you cross-spec into for instance shii-cho knight afterwards.

EDIT: If you keep the meddling to two talents, I'd probably allow it come to think of it.

EDIT 2: But this brings us back to the universal specs and the potential addition of advanced/restricted specs (specialised specs becomes ... yeah...) that always counts as out of career specs, perhaps are even more expensive, but provide access to coolness - but not über coolness that ruins stuff. I could see some duellist kind of spec and perhaps a few others that, while perhaps fitting for some careers, they could still be generic enough to be added to any character (universal spec), or so narrow in focus that it won't fit into a career without taking it away from the careers focus (restriced spec). It's probably not going to happen and I'm sure there are many issues with this idea, but I kind of like it...

For now go with Shii-Cho out of career, but it would be nice to see Parry show up in a career supplement for either EotE or AoR. A Bounty Hunter or Soldier Duelest perhaps. But Shii-Cho is pretty close, with a lot of talents useful to a Melee character.

For now go with Shii-Cho out of career, but it would be nice to see Parry show up in a career supplement for either EotE or AoR. A Bounty Hunter or Soldier Duelest perhaps. But Shii-Cho is pretty close, with a lot of talents useful to a Melee character.

Hmm, Shii-Cho was based off traditional sword fighting skills. I wonder if I could mod it slightly and produce a non-force wielder specialization!? It's something I'll give some thought too anyways.

1) A talent represents more than just basic abilities. A narrative approach to gaming (like this RPG) assumes that characters are going to be parrying, dodging, blocking, etc, during the combat rounds. So for example, "dodging" is a pretty basic skill, and yet not all PCs have access to the Dodge talent. Same with Parry. It's a specific talent that allows a player to directly affect the mechanics of the game. The "adeptness" mentioned above is indeed what talents generally represent; an unusual level of adroitness in the given area of expertise.

Having got that out of the way...

2) Parry isn't a Force talent, so you don't have to be "Force Sensitive" to use it. It's just that it is currently only found in the Force and Destiny specializations. But that isn't a big deal; any melee-focused character would be well served to buy right into the Shii-Cho Knight specialization (for example), which has only 3 Force talents in the whole tree, and buy up to four ranks in Parry along with several other very useful talents.

For now go with Shii-Cho out of career, but it would be nice to see Parry show up in a career supplement for either EotE or AoR. A Bounty Hunter or Soldier Duelest perhaps. But Shii-Cho is pretty close, with a lot of talents useful to a Melee character.

Hmm, Shii-Cho was based off traditional sword fighting skills. I wonder if I could mod it slightly and produce a non-force wielder specialization!? It's something I'll give some thought too anyways.

Just use as is. It has only 3 Force based moves (and those are all pretty far down in the tree). The rest is anything that anyone can use. You may have to swap out like 1 power but overall the Shii Cho is usable as is.

Awayputyrwpn's first point is pretty much on the nose. Even though PCs in a fight are considered to be "parrying," "dodging," or "side stepping" incoming attacks, that doesn't mean they have to have the Parry, Dodge, or Side Step talents to do so.

If the non-Force user PCs really want Parry talents, then as others suggested have them buy into the Shii-Cho Knight specialization. Yes, it's cross-spec but it offers a lot of useful talents for a Melee-focused character aside from the four ranks of Parry. The Force user PCs that took Lightsaber Form specs already paid in advance for things like Parry and Reflect but starting out with fewer beginning skill ranks and fewer career skills, so it's not fair to them to just hand out Parry to the muggles simply because they want it.

Also, there's the guarded stance maneuver in the combat chapter, which lets the attacker add a setback die to their attack rolls in exchange for a +1 bonus to their melee defense. If they've invested enough into the Melee skill, then that setback die to their attacks won't mean very much, and it will help against the riff-raff opposition.

The Force user PCs that took Lightsaber Form specs already paid in advance for things like Parry and Reflect but starting out with fewer beginning skill ranks and fewer career skills, so it's not fair to them to just hand out Parry to the muggles simply because they want it.

I think it's less about the power, and more that they hadn't come up with the talent until FaD. Of course, it's also to help counteract the face that lightsabers ignore all but the most incredible Soak scores. Dodge and Defensive stance might cause a miss or two, but the damage is still pretty nasty.

I think switching a point or two of Parry into a couple of the trees would be fine, but they should be down the tree a bit, and very rare.

I also think they should replace damage increasing talents if added.

When I think about non-force users using Parry, General Grievous and his robo-guards come to mind. They faced Jedi often enough. If you account for the Lightsabers Breach ability and skills of the Jedi they faced, Parry seems to be the "go-to" way to explain Grievous's success. Perhaps we'll see a none force sensitive melee specialization down the line, but I think Shii-Cho Knight is a pretty decent gap filler at the moment.

The Force user PCs that took Lightsaber Form specs already paid in advance for things like Parry and Reflect but starting out with fewer beginning skill ranks and fewer career skills, so it's not fair to them to just hand out Parry to the muggles simply because they want it.

I think it's less about the power, and more that they hadn't come up with the talent until FaD. Of course, it's also to help counteract the face that lightsabers ignore all but the most incredible Soak scores. Dodge and Defensive stance might cause a miss or two, but the damage is still pretty nasty.

I think switching a point or two of Parry into a couple of the trees would be fine, but they should be down the tree a bit, and very rare.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. So you don't truly encroach on the lightsaber forms, yet if gives you some decent capabilities if you wanna focus on melee. I'll have to look around at a few of the combat heavy specs and see what would seem fair and not unbalance the specializations.

Grievous is an NPC, and so wouldn't need to bother with things like Specializations; the GM would simply slap on ranks of Parry so that Obi-Wan doesn't completely decimate the cyborg general in the opening round. Didn't work out to well anyway, and the GM was forced to set up an extended chase sequence to deprive Obi-Wan of his lightsaber and give Grievous a fighting chance. Too bad Obi-Wan scored a critical injury with that heavy blaster pistol and then got the Overpowered result for a second attack that got Grievous a lethal case of heartburn.

The FaD core rulebook does that with a couple NPCs that aren't Force-sensitive, those being the IG-100 MagnaGuards and the Royal Guards, both of whom have a few ranks of Parry to keep them from getting obliterated in a melee battle with PCs wielding lightsabers. Having played in an FFG adventure at GenCon 2014 using a pre-gen with a lightsaber vs. IG-100s that weren't toned down like they were for the final release, the lightsabers did nasty amounts of damage, with the IG-100s Parry being the only thing that kept them in the fight for more than two rounds.

Grievous as a PC would probably have the Shii-Cho Knight specialization. It makes sense, as he did receive training in proper lightsaber combat techniques from Dooku, though with a focus on using the unorthodox rather than the traditional dueling methods favored by the Jedi.

When I think about non-force users using Parry, General Grievous and his robo-guards come to mind. They faced Jedi often enough. If you account for the Lightsabers Breach ability and skills of the Jedi they faced, Parry seems to be the "go-to" way to explain Grievous's success. Perhaps we'll see a none force sensitive melee specialization down the line, but I think Shii-Cho Knight is a pretty decent gap filler at the moment.

Thinking of Grievous, who was trained by Dooku; Makashi is another good one. All you have to deal with is the 10XP "Makashi Technique" tax, and you can become a great swordsman with access to the entire gamut of non-Force talents in the tree (including FIVE ranks of Parry, Duelist's Training, Defensive Training, Improved Parry, and two ranks of Feint).

When I think about non-force users using Parry, General Grievous and his robo-guards come to mind. They faced Jedi often enough. If you account for the Lightsabers Breach ability and skills of the Jedi they faced, Parry seems to be the "go-to" way to explain Grievous's success. Perhaps we'll see a none force sensitive melee specialization down the line, but I think Shii-Cho Knight is a pretty decent gap filler at the moment.

Thinking of Grievous, who was trained by Dooku; Makashi is another good one. All you have to deal with is the 10XP "Makashi Technique" tax, and you can become a great swordsman with access to the entire gamut of non-Force talents in the tree (including FIVE ranks of Parry, Duelist's Training, Defensive Training, Improved Parry, and two ranks of Feint).

While Dooku did train Grievous in combating Jedi and lightsaber skills. I don't really see Grievous's style resembling Makashi at all. Makashi is all about high precision and economy of movement to wear down and penetrate an opponents defenses. Where Grievous's style was more, brutal power and unorthodox 4x blade style. I think Shii-Cho is definitely a better fit for Grievous.

While Dooku did train Grievous in combating Jedi and lightsaber skills. I don't really see Grievous's style resembling Makashi at all. Makashi is all about high precision and economy of movement to wear down and penetrate an opponents defenses. Where Grievous's style was more, brutal power and unorthodox 4x blade style. I think Shii-Cho is definitely a better fit for Grievous.

Eh...if we're building Grievous as a PC or Nemesis, I disagree. Dooku, who (according to Legend) exclusively favored Makashi, trained Grievous in lightsaber combat. I would expect some of this influence to show itself in Grievous' style, at least to start with (despite the fact that he was trained in every form). And even though the words panache or finesse aren't the first thing to pop into my mind when I think of Grievous, those talents found within the Makashi Duelist tree fit him best. And, given that Makashi Technique is a Force talent, the game-mechanical style itself is really a moot point.

Obviously, the cyborg's fighting style was not limited to one specific form; his mechanical body meant that he could do things that other humanoids simply could not (e.g. spinning his lightsabers rapidly by rotating his hand at wrist, blocking powerful blows with one arm, wielding four lightsabers at once...ya know). But Legend has it that he was adept in all seven classical lightsaber forms, so I wouldn't say that one form or the other "suits" him better. Moreover, talk of Forms I - VII is diverging a bit from canon, which can get messy, so I'll leave Legends (and all the lore surrounding the "classical forms") behind for the next bit.

Diving solely into Canon material and again just looking at the talents themselves (ignoring the names of the trees for a moment), and after reflecting, I think the Makashi Duelist suits Grievous best. The main reason for this is that he is at his best when he goes one-on-one against opponents. In fact, over and over in TCW and the RotS, when he is faced with more than one Jedi, he seeks to even the odds by secluding one from the other or simply runs away, being the dishonorable and devious person he is. This leads me to believe that he can't handle two skilled opponents at once, but rather seeks the advantage over the lone Jedi and overwhelms them with his mechanically-enhanced prowess.

(If he'd had that "Multiple Opponents" talent, perhaps he would have stayed to duke it out with Obi-Wan and Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand. Or he could have sought to engage both Kit Fisto and Nahdar Vebb at the same time. But he ran away from them and the Clones with them, seeking to thin their numbers and then taunt Nahdar to follow his emotions...to his eventual undoing. Grievous seems to prefer seeking out the single Jedi: Ahsoka alone, instead of Ahsoka and Anakin together.)

Remember that not just PCs get talent trees. The EotE GM Kit has rules that detail how one can go about advancing a Nemesis NPC, and one of those rules allow for the GM to assign the Nemesis a talent tree from which to select talents! So...yeah, I'd give him Makashi duelist. It just fits the best. 5 (very affordable) ranks of Parry allow him to completely negate the damage from a successful attack with a basic lightsaber, and the Defensive Training on top of his Adversary talent (at least 3 ranks) would make him pretty hard to hit in the first place.

Oh, geeking out over stuff like this. Love it, love it.