Hey guys, so this is my current tournament standard list, and I'm loving it. I won't say I haven't lost a game with it yet, cause there was that one game... but I'm really not sure what its weaknesses are. I've taken on ship-heavy, squadron-heavy, balanced, even anti-squadron skew with it, and it holds up marvelously.

There's nothing subtle or revolutionary about the list, but it just works like clockwork, and I really think it covers all the bases.

So I'm looking for you guys to poke holes in it and tell me what the hard counter might look like, or what you'd do with it to make it better. Thanks!

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The general game plan here is, I play it defensively, then strike hard and devastatingly when my adversary comes into range. In a game that's all about how well you can mass your forces on one target at a time, the power that hard-hitting fighter-bombers deliver cannot be overstated.

Four FC'd A-wings will reliably kill just about any ace (haven't faced a YT-1300 with shields yet, so it may not successfully get the alpha strike on Han, but that's about it), which means I can reliably take out the lynchpin ace of a fighter-heavy (Howlrunner/Dengar/Wedge) or bomber-heavy (Rhymer/Luke) build on my first fighter attack. I slow roll the AF2's to keep the B-Wings in position, even if it means giving up one extra turn of an adversary's Contested Outpost or whatever. Worst case, if I'm having to run away from an Imperial charge, it means they're charging into a cloud of angry B-Wings, and not even an ISD can weather a round of fire from 6 B-Wings and 4 A-wings without coming out much worse for the wear. If I'm facing the range of an Ackbar gun line, I can sit outside long range and throw the fighters in to deal with him. If I'm up against a swarm, I sit and wait for them, and devour them when they close in. Raiders may hurt squadrons, but B-Wings annihilate them right back, and probably get the first shot.

So, anyway, feedback? What list would you take that, if you found yourself sitting across the table from this one, you would think "awww yeeeaaahhh, I'm gonna tear that apart!"?

The Surest of Favors (394/400)

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Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 29)

+ Garm Bel Iblis (25)

+ Boosted Comms (4)

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 11)

+ Flight Controllers (6)

+ Expanded Hangar Bay (5)

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 10)

+ Flight Controllers (6)

+ Boosted Comms (4)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Objectives Assault: Advanced Gunnery (0)

Objectives Defense: Fire Lanes (0)

Objectives Navigation: Superior Positions (0)

guess the weakness is "not enough B-wings"

it was a good attempt, though

well, live by the squadron, die by the squadron. If you get bogged down in enemy chaffe before the A-wings can tangle them, essentially naked AFmk2s aren't going to acomplish much relative to what you can dish out in Wave 2

so, maybe Jan?

I hear intel is a thing now

I hear intel is a thing now

so you got intel on intel?

The lack of Intel is the most glaring weakness. I wouldn't have to beat your fighter group, I would just need to tie it down for a short while. Those B-Wings only need to be tied up for a turn or two to make them almost completely irrelevant. Those AFIIs are awfully fragile too without ECMs. Solid list for sure, but you're looking for weaknesses.

As an example of a hard counter, JJ Juggernaut has a nasty 2 Demo/2 Raider list that has Boba, 5 Firesprays, and Rhymer. Now he probably won't be able to beat you squadron for squadron, but he will keep you tied down long enough to table your AFIIs. If you have Intel, you can opt to tie down his main squadron force while ensuring freedom of movement for your B-Wings.

If you choose to make this minor edit, the best way I see to do so is to drop one B-Wing and one set of flight controllers (the one without the expanded hangar bays) and grab Jan. She's well worth the points. Your initiative bid remains high at 393.

1 ship - Instigator. Put the Instigator title on a Raider, fly it into your fighter swarm, drop to speed 1, and then just do donuts while your squads are tied up and can do nothing but watch as it spits out AA fire. The Raider is fast enough and maneuverable enough that as soon as you bunch up, it can be on you to lock you down while the rest of the fleet goes after the naked whales.

That fighter ball would annihilate a speed 1 raider in one turn and wouldn't need any commands to do so. If you're in range to force a lock down, they're in range to murder you. The B-Wings alone throw out 6 blue and 6 black. A Raider isn't surviving that. If you're OK sacrificing the Instigator Raider to save something big, that's fine. Just don't expect it to survive that exchange.

Instigator denies that. It makes the Raider count as 2 squadrons so the enemy squadrons are all "engaged" yet cannot fire at the Instigator Raider because it is a ship and squadrons cannot fire at ships when "engaged".

Instigator denies that. It makes the Raider count as 2 squadrons so the enemy squadrons are all "engaged" yet cannot fire at the Instigator Raider because it is a ship and squadrons cannot fire at ships when "engaged".

Alas its not quite that clear-cut. This is one of the gray areas of wave 2, there's a discussion somewhere in the rules forum on this topic.

The haziness comes from the 2nd bullet point under Engagement

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

Its the "if possible" clause. Since its not possible to attack the 2 imaginary engaged squadrons, does that mean they can attack the ship?

I highly doubt Instigator will be immune to squadrons

reason being: that's ******* broken as hell

but yes, it's not possible to attack squadrons that are not there so the Raider's fair game. If the Instigator and a Tie fighter engage a squadron, the squadron must shoot the tie first

Thanks for the feedback everybody: it's hard to accept, which means it's exactly what I was looking for!

Believe me, that call on omitting ECM was really tough. It came down to the fact that I'm going with a very aggressive strategy overall (kill the **** out of them before they can kill me), and I can tactically mitigate most of what ECM gives me. The biggest threats to a well-flown, non ECM whale are those small breakers like the Raider and Glad, like Truthiness pointed out... And for the most part those don't rely on accuracy to kill, which makes ECM less crucial. So my idea is that I can avoid the need for ECM by sucking less, so that's what I'll try to do. That said, I'm sure I'll change my tube the first time I die to Vader's Devastator with SW-7, XI7, and Gunnery Teams.

That overall strategy--strike first, strike hard, strike fast--is what led me to omit Jan/HWK, too. Intel is awesome, but one thing it does do is eat up points that would otherwise go toward killing mofos, in which really pinning a lot of my strategy. She *can* be useful in unlocking your fighters to enable you to mass your interceptors, but I again think that most of what she brings to the fight in that regard can be duplicated tactically: if your interceptors got intercepted, ya done fscked up. That said, I will try swapping her in next time I can get a good force-on-force fighter game in and see how she does.

And yeah, Instigator doesn't work like that, CoMo. What does hurt is Instigator with a couple beefy escorts to actually lock you down--Vader's TIE, Boba, etc. The problem with this is, while it's really good on paper, it's 1) quite a few points you're essentially sacrificing for a round of no B-Wing fire, and 2) pretty hard to execute and pretty easy to counter. If you're flying the Raider into the middle of a B-Wing swarm which is, remember, being flown close in to the carriers, you're putting it in the most dangerous possible spot on the board. You're also not using it to block the conga line, which is okay with me.

I tend to use my HWK to punch my bombers into whichever hull zone I want. It is also particularly useful with bwings as they don't don't have the option of flying around fighter screens.

I have to say I think your list is great against imps, who will need to close and don't throw a lot of accuracies at range, I could see it suffering against a fast long range broadside based fleet, with home one and xi7s to lock down your brace and redirects. Or a very fast swam fleet......

The thing with Jan is that in addition to Intel, you're also getting a major survivability buff. Both the A-Wings and B-Wings will last a lot longer. Even if you don't need Intel, Jan is good to have around.

I tend to use my HWK to punch my bombers into whichever hull zone I want. It is also particularly useful with bwings as they don't don't have the option of flying around fighter screens.

I have to say I think your list is great against imps, who will need to close and don't throw a lot of accuracies at range, I could see it suffering against a fast long range broadside based fleet, with home one and xi7s to lock down your brace and redirects. Or a very fast swam fleet......

Yeah, the swarm thing is true, and nobody around here plays a lot of swarms so I haven't encountered a well-flown one yet with this. I imagine you would do the same thing against that that I do against Glads and MC30s: wait for them to come to me. If they do, they die; if they don't, they're not concentrating their fire very well and you're bound to corner a straggler or two at the very least.

I've found the broadside fleets to be predictable enough (dancing right or dancing left?) that I can catch them with the B-Wings by turn 3 or 4, while staying out of range myself. The massive deployment advantage of the list (8 deployments) along with the flexibility that Garm grants goes a long way toward enabling this.

Yeah, Truthiness, Jan's braces are certainly nice. And I do sometimes use my B-Wings as bait to draw in the adversary's interceptors where and when I want them, often losing one in the process, which Jan would help prevent. The question is, how many bombers does Jan have to save before she becomes worth her points over just taking another squadron and a half? I think it's kind of a lot, because yeah she provides Intel and Braces, but the opportunity cost is (almost) two A-wings, or a B-Wing + Flight Controllers. Which kind of brings me back to the list's design philosophy of using good offense as the best defense. But maybe a little bit of balance toward defense would pay dividends on offense.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here, didn't really have a point in all that rambling...

I gotta say I really like this build.

I'd consider dropping 1 B for a HWK too. Just for insurance.

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Also, Imo, well commanded Howl Dengar 3 Ints will still tear up your A wings.

Here's a counter:

Howl

Dengar

Soontir Fel

2 Ints

Darth Vader

Rhymer

Mauler

Boba Fett

Commanded by Chiraneau.

The Surest of Favors (394/400)

=============================

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 29)

+ Garm Bel Iblis (25)

+ Boosted Comms (4)

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 11)

+ Flight Controllers (6)

+ Expanded Hangar Bay (5)

Assault Frigate Mark II: Assault Frigate Mk.II B (72 + 10)

+ Flight Controllers (6)

+ Boosted Comms (4)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: B-wing Squadron (14)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Squadrons: A-wing Squadron (11)

Objectives Assault: Advanced Gunnery (0)

Objectives Defense: Fire Lanes (0)

Objectives Navigation: Superior Positions (0)

I have found Tycho to be worth every point spent that scatter ability is awesome as long as he is not attacked multiple times. So, use him in a flanking role. Luke is boss as a bomber and fighter. B-wings are slow, they may not be useful in the late game. Lose Expanded Hangers, Boosted Comms are superior for a carrier fleet, you may not even need them on all 3.

I gotta say I really like this build.

I'd consider dropping 1 B for a HWK too. Just for insurance.

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Also, Imo, well commanded Howl Dengar 3 Ints will still tear up your A wings.

Here's a counter:

Howl

Dengar

Soontir Fel

2 Ints

Darth Vader

Rhymer

Mauler

Boba Fett

Commanded by Chiraneau.

You don't even need all that. Even Dengar, Howl and 2x Ints is a minimal points investment that will fatlip most squadrons. Add Mithel to taste, but the point is to pose a big threat to his squadrons while investing minimal points.

For all the Intel advocates: took a slightly different build to a tournament last weekend that, among other things, dropped a B-wing for Jan, and I've gotta say I'm completely sold on her... Though frankly, much less for the Intel and more for dem braces. I faced three (!) goddamned Rieekan anti-squadron skew lists, and it held up fantastically, thanks largely to Jan keeping the A-wings alive to weather the inevitable return fire from Wedge & Friends. Pissed one guy off that his Wedge double-tap that would've killed Tycho couldn't down a vanilla A-wing...

And I've faced the Howl/Dengar/TIE Int screen a few times with this, and the outcome depends almost entirely on who strikes first, cause they're gonna get some alpha strikes.

Blail, that is a terrifying ball of fighters. With that many squadrons in play, it's honestly gonna come down to tactics, because I think the two sets of fighters are pretty evenly matched.

Instigator denies that. It makes the Raider count as 2 squadrons so the enemy squadrons are all "engaged" yet cannot fire at the Instigator Raider because it is a ship and squadrons cannot fire at ships when "engaged".

Alas its not quite that clear-cut. This is one of the gray areas of wave 2, there's a discussion somewhere in the rules forum on this topic.

The haziness comes from the 2nd bullet point under Engagement

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

Its the "if possible" clause. Since its not possible to attack the 2 imaginary engaged squadrons, does that mean they can attack the ship?

So, Instigator is a complete waste of points, since it sounds like you have to have a squadron at distance one of the squadrons you are distance one of with instigator? Why would Instigator need to be there in the first place? I don't think FFG meant to write the "if possible" clause in there, or they will make a ruling. With this and Reiken questions, I see a new FAQ/Errata on the horizon.

Instigator denies that. It makes the Raider count as 2 squadrons so the enemy squadrons are all "engaged" yet cannot fire at the Instigator Raider because it is a ship and squadrons cannot fire at ships when "engaged".

Alas its not quite that clear-cut. This is one of the gray areas of wave 2, there's a discussion somewhere in the rules forum on this topic.

The haziness comes from the 2nd bullet point under Engagement

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

Its the "if possible" clause. Since its not possible to attack the 2 imaginary engaged squadrons, does that mean they can attack the ship?

So, Instigator is a complete waste of points, since it sounds like you have to have a squadron at distance one of the squadrons you are distance one of with instigator? Why would Instigator need to be there in the first place? I don't think FFG meant to write the "if possible" clause in there, or they will make a ruling. With this and Reiken questions, I see a new FAQ/Errata on the horizon.

Instigator still does a couple things for you. If possible means they do have to attack a squadron if one is there, so it does a nice job backing up dengar-howlrunner led counter-4 interceptors. It keeps a group of intel backed fighters from booking it towards a more valuable target, as Instigator ain't heavy, he's my brother. Finally, it shuts down. grit, but you know, whateves. I mean its a 4 point title. Did you really think they were going to throw in a four point title that basically gives a ship immunity to squadron attacks?

Also: Ruthless Strategists. Add some TIE Advanced and fire away. Suddenly engaged squads are looking at close to 3 damage every round, BEFORE the TIEs shoot.