I am fairly certain I spend more time designing lists and theorizing strategies than playing the actual game....

I frequently come up with a list at the last minute, and barely know what the components on my opponents' ships do.

It doesn't seem to have hampered me too much.

Yeah, I've done this too. But if you don't know what you are doing, no list will work.

I'm still bitterly disappointed by the scope of this game. when they announced it at GenCon I really wanted to be able to fly a legitimate fleet. A flagship, a couple medium-large capital ships, a half dozen small support ships and a dozen or more fighter squadrons. Sigh.

I think this might need to be a mindset shift - the game for competition format stipulates 400 points but on any given day you can say "hey lets do a big fleet engagement" and set the points limit higher - the game will take a little longer but it scales well, unlike some games and you will get that fleet engagement feel you are looking for. As soon as Wave 2 arrives out here in Aus I have a 1000 point all the toys game lined up. 400 points is great for pick up but there is nothing in the rules that will physically restrain you from realizing the large fleet game you are looking for.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Lots of fighters < some fighters < no fighters < lotsa fighters, etc, etc.

This was certainly the theory. We called it Edsel-Blerg, but it has pretty much been debunked.

Especially now with the R&Vs out, Lotsa fighters is really great against some fighters.

on any given day you can say "hey lets do a big fleet engagement" and set the points limit higher -

That does require having an opponent who wants to do that. It is a lot easier to find people to play a game at the default level.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Lots of fighters < some fighters < no fighters < lotsa fighters, etc, etc.

This was certainly the theory. We called it Edsel-Blerg, but it has pretty much been debunked.

Especially now with the R&Vs out, Lotsa fighters is really great against some fighters.

Meta is in an awesome state of flux. Next few months will be great.

If you have the time/models, go for an Epic-size battle, there's nothing saying no to that. I think the biggest reason FFG kept tournament lists to 400 was the time issue - we're already at what, 2hrs per game? Imagine if we doubled what everyone brought to the table.

A better analogy than R/P/N would be cooking. We're all throwing together recipes and a recipe by itself can taste terrible (lists) but it requires a good chef to put it together. Any idiot can burn a pizza. We're not competing to see who throws the right combo but to see who can make the more delicious meal. Some things complement each other and a good chef finds the best complements and puts them together masterfully.

...aaand now I'm hungry. Ice Cream Time!

Thats a good way to put it, Kittens. Ive seen proven lists go down in flames in the hands of bad cooks!

Thats a good way to put it, Kittens. Ive seen proven lists go down in flames in the hands of bad cooks!

Heck, I've been that cook - first few lists were just ripped off the internets with a slight modification here and there. Was using a spreadsheet to track everything because I didn't know fleet builders existed. GenCon was so popular in part because it was the PopTarts of Armada - most could pick it up quickly and not burn anything (other than opponent's ships) without too much trouble. Once you've got something that works, why change it? Just get better at those PopTarts!

What is this "gencon special" list I keep hearing mentioned?

What is this "gencon special" list I keep hearing mentioned?

Some variation on 3x GSD (with ACMs), a VSD and Screed.

My biggest suggestion honestly is to play ******VASSAL******

You may be fimilar with vassal from x-wing but if your not it's a program you can download that recreate board games on the computer including Armada

What this would allow you to do is play against an experienced and in dead expert opponent who could explain exactly why everything happened and help you come to that realization of how the depth of this game works

Need some help here. Something about Armada is just not working with me (or really anyone at my LGS). The game just seems totally random. I played about a dozen games with wave 1, and now that wave 2 is out I've played 2 with the new stuff and it really doesn't seem like anything I do has much impact on the outcome. Case in point, this last Sunday, played a game with a friend. I flew well (kept getting front arc shots with both Vics and the ISD), maneuvered to counter his deployment so that he couldn't outflank me, rolled well (really well actually), got totally demolished. ISD 2 with 10 damage cards the first round he fired on it (which was after he vaporized the 2 Vics). Friday before that, day I bought the ISD, we played a game and I creamed him. No idea why. And he agrees with me. For both of us the game seems like there is supposed to be more to it, but to us it just feels like we are making decisions almost randomly because the outcome of each round never seems connected to what we do. We're both experienced wargamers, been playing X-Wing for years and other games before that, but we just can't seem to grok this one. I know other people at the store feel similarly.

Any advice?

All that being said, I do have to admit that SW:Armada is probably the best fleet scale starship combat game I have encountered since Star Fleet Battles, but that isn't a really difficult bar to clear. I WANT to like it, but so far I just can't seem to get into it at all like I have X-Wing.

This might sound rude, but I really had to read this post a lot of times to try to understand this.

From the information that you provided, I can only assume that you're not really a deep thinker, and really know how to analyze a game more complex than X-Wing. I mean, just read what you wrote. I lost, I don't know why. We rolled dice, things happened, I lost. Seriously, what?

The fact that you brought up hating deck building and this game is difficult to build lists for means that the game might be too complicated/complex for your playgroup. You said you're an experienced wargamer, I'm curious which wargames you've played in the past. Warhammer 40K? Fantasy? Warmahordes? Did you enjoy those? Or have played them at a competitive level? If you didn't enjoy them, they were probably too complex, and you probably couldn't be bothered going any further with them.

I can only suggest doing more research, learn about list building, strategy, Wave 2 meta, tactics, and watch other players play on Vassal (stay away from Youtube, people are generally awful and you'll pick up bad habits). I would also offer my site as a resource, but I'm unsure where your head's at with all of this.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Fighters are one such mechanic.

Lots of fighters < some fighters < no fighters < lotsa fighters, etc, etc.

Some fighters beat lots because they can keep bomber wings tangled up for long enough to ruin any chance of them having a big impact on the game at large.

In the age of Grit and esp. Intel this is no longer necessarily true - now your bombers WILL get to shoot, repeatedly, even if your opponent has many more squadrons.

This might sound rude, but I really had to read this post a lot of times to try to understand this.

From the information that you provided, I can only assume that you're not really a deep thinker, and really know how to analyze a game more complex than X-Wing. I mean, just read what you wrote. I lost, I don't know why. We rolled dice, things happened, I lost. Seriously, what?

The fact that you brought up hating deck building and this game is difficult to build lists for means that the game might be too complicated/complex for your playgroup. You said you're an experienced wargamer, I'm curious which wargames you've played in the past. Warhammer 40K? Fantasy? Warmahordes? Did you enjoy those? Or have played them at a competitive level? If you didn't enjoy them, they were probably too complex, and you probably couldn't be bothered going any further with them.

I can only suggest doing more research, learn about list building, strategy, Wave 2 meta, tactics, and watch other players play on Vassal (stay away from Youtube, people are generally awful and you'll pick up bad habits). I would also offer my site as a resource, but I'm unsure where your head's at with all of this.

It 'might' sound rude? How many other ways are you going to call him stupid (which he isn't)?

If that's going to be your attitude, I really hope you'll bugger off and find someplace else to troll.

This might sound rude, but I really had to read this post a lot of times to try to understand this.

From the information that you provided, I can only assume that you're not really a deep thinker, and really know how to analyze a game more complex than X-Wing. I mean, just read what you wrote. I lost, I don't know why. We rolled dice, things happened, I lost. Seriously, what?

The fact that you brought up hating deck building and this game is difficult to build lists for means that the game might be too complicated/complex for your playgroup. You said you're an experienced wargamer, I'm curious which wargames you've played in the past. Warhammer 40K? Fantasy? Warmahordes? Did you enjoy those? Or have played them at a competitive level? If you didn't enjoy them, they were probably too complex, and you probably couldn't be bothered going any further with them.

I can only suggest doing more research, learn about list building, strategy, Wave 2 meta, tactics, and watch other players play on Vassal (stay away from Youtube, people are generally awful and you'll pick up bad habits). I would also offer my site as a resource, but I'm unsure where your head's at with all of this.

It 'might' sound rude? How many other ways are you going to call him stupid (which he isn't)?

If that's going to be your attitude, I really hope you'll bugger off and find someplace else to troll.

Troll? Do you even know what that means? Maybe if you read the first post again it will refresh your memory on how ridiculous the post actually sounds.

I'm trying to find out what kind of person he is and what experience he has with other wargames. You don't have a clue what his learning aptitude is and you can only read through text what someone's intentions are. If they come post on the forums with a paragraph stating that he just doesn't understand what's going on, but then claims he's an experienced wargamer, then excuse me if I'm failing to give a proper prognosis.

There is no harm in saying that a game might be too complex for someone to enjoy. It happened in 40K, happened in Fantasy, happened in Warmahordes, BFG, EPIC, Flames of War, Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux, and even X-Wing. I have a lot of experience teaching players how to play new game systems and sometimes, it just doesn't click for them.

Big deal, it happens. Get over it.

This might sound rude, but I really had to read this post a lot of times to try to understand this.

From the information that you provided, I can only assume that you're not really a deep thinker, and really know how to analyze a game more complex than X-Wing. I mean, just read what you wrote. I lost, I don't know why. We rolled dice, things happened, I lost. Seriously, what?

The fact that you brought up hating deck building and this game is difficult to build lists for means that the game might be too complicated/complex for your playgroup. You said you're an experienced wargamer, I'm curious which wargames you've played in the past. Warhammer 40K? Fantasy? Warmahordes? Did you enjoy those? Or have played them at a competitive level? If you didn't enjoy them, they were probably too complex, and you probably couldn't be bothered going any further with them.

I can only suggest doing more research, learn about list building, strategy, Wave 2 meta, tactics, and watch other players play on Vassal (stay away from Youtube, people are generally awful and you'll pick up bad habits). I would also offer my site as a resource, but I'm unsure where your head's at with all of this.

It 'might' sound rude? How many other ways are you going to call him stupid (which he isn't)?

If that's going to be your attitude, I really hope you'll bugger off and find someplace else to troll.

Troll? Do you even know what that means? Maybe if you read the first post again it will refresh your memory on how ridiculous the post actually sounds.

I'm trying to find out what kind of person he is and what experience he has with other wargames. You don't have a clue what his learning aptitude is and you can only read through text what someone's intentions are. If they come post on the forums with a paragraph stating that he just doesn't understand what's going on, but then claims he's an experienced wargamer, then excuse me if I'm failing to give a proper prognosis.

There is no harm in saying that a game might be too complex for someone to enjoy. It happened in 40K, happened in Fantasy, happened in Warmahordes, BFG, EPIC, Flames of War, Firestorm Armada, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux, and even X-Wing. I have a lot of experience teaching players how to play new game systems and sometimes, it just doesn't click for them.

Big deal, it happens. Get over it.

This might sound rude, but I really had to read this post a lot of times to try to understand this. [...]

It 'might' sound rude? How many other ways are you going to call him stupid (which he isn't)?

If that's going to be your attitude, I really hope you'll bugger off and find someplace else to troll.

Troll? Do you even know what that means? Maybe if you read the first post again it will refresh your memory on how ridiculous the post actually sounds.

Even if his aptitude were less than stellar, and you the 'God of all Gaming', he doesn't deserve to be treated as contemptuously as you're doing.

How about all parties step away from the issue, the main reason i dropped 40k and a raft of games of that ilk and embraced FFG and Historical gaming is that this (that im watching) doesn't happen and the community is great. The OP may not get the game, and may have not articulated himself very well, but until the last few posts, the advice and discussion was great, how about we get back to that level of conversation and support opposed to this. I'm new here but would prefer not to see this happen.

How about all parties step away from the issue, the main reason i dropped 40k and a raft of games of that ilk and embraced FFG and Historical gaming is that this (that im watching) doesn't happen and the community is great. The OP may not get the game, and may have not articulated himself very well, but until the last few posts, the advice and discussion was great, how about we get back to that level of conversation and support opposed to this. I'm new here but would prefer not to see this happen.

You're quite right. This forum is a pretty nice and civil community. As you can see by our post counts, both Forgottenlore and I've been around here for a bit. He and I have interacted for a while, and I've never had the impression that he's a simpleton in the way that HERO's verbiage is implying he is. Yes, there's a maturity level to X-Wing/Armada players, that (I hear) is greater than in many other gaming communities. It's because it's a community, and a good one at that, that I'm defensive.

I'm guessing that HERO is simply unaware of the tone that he is taking. From his blog, I can tell that he's pretty sharp, but that doesn't mean he ought to be so high handed.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Fighters are one such mechanic.

Lots of fighters < some fighters < no fighters < lotsa fighters, etc, etc.

Some fighters beat lots because they can keep bomber wings tangled up for long enough to ruin any chance of them having a big impact on the game at large.

In the age of Grit and esp. Intel this is no longer necessarily true - now your bombers WILL get to shoot, repeatedly, even if your opponent has many more squadrons.

Fortunately (For the Empire at least), there are some tools to quickly take out those Intel generators in the absence (or in spite of) escorts. IG-88 is the definitive squadron assassin since he ignores all protection and can kill choice squadrons. Vader also hits the hardest of most squadrons on the table when it comes to fighters.

What is this "gencon special" list I keep hearing mentioned?

Did someone announce a forum firebombing contest? I missed it. Better go catch up by dropping in on the x-wing forum to ask them why they like the game while listing the reasons I don't, then disagreeing with all responses.

I'm way behind in points by now!

What is this "gencon special" list I keep hearing mentioned?

Did someone announce a forum firebombing contest? I missed it. Better go catch up by dropping in on the x-wing forum to ask them why they like the game while listing the reasons I don't, then disagreeing with all responses.

LOL, that's like inviting Lyraeus to an X-Wing tournament.

(Which...happened, Sunday before last.)

If on an Internet medium you are leading a statement off with some iteration of "No offense" the odds of the subsequent statement actually being offensive spike exponentially.

Honestly, the implication that a person is not a "deep-thinker" because in a specific instances they may not be being as critically analytical as they could/should be is pretty ****** up. There is no need to generilize about that person beyond the specific instance.

Not thinking deeply on a subject is not itself an insult, not being a deep thinker in general is. And if you don't see the difference between the two, well you aren't thinking very deeply on the specific subject.

Ohhh boy. Please tell me we are not demeaning players who don't play these games at specific levels? I already dealt with that on the X-Wing side of things.

. . . I think people (Mikael Hasselstein) blew this out of proportion.

So HERO is asking for a baseline of knowledge to gauge Forgottenlore's capabilities.

It sounded demeaning but I read the post and found that it was just a probe for what gaming experience Forgottenlore has and some ways to get more information.

As for the "complicated thinking" this is common. This game takes a lot of critical thinking to play and IS hard. This game is not like 40k, Malifaux, X-Wing, or even Warmahordes. Every little thing matters in this game.

Forgottenlore, I think in trying to grasp how you as a player are make a difference you need to really think what are the none random events In the games and how can You benefit from these:

1)strategic planning:

A) me.......how can I get the most out of me,understand yourself, what are you like and what are you good at ,estimating distances a couple of moves ahead easy or hard ? good at adding up odds or poor at maths ? happy with lots of options or get stressed with choices, Patient or Inpatient? Need to go for the kill or like to jab ? What are your limits of concentration and stamina ?

B) them.... Do you know them, what do you know ? what fleet mix are they likely to play, what are they bad at( if they are shocking at complex fighter games, go with bombers etc). Are you playing the unknown or a mix of games ?

C) Environment..... What time of day am I playing ?is it after a long day at work?, will I be tired?, how many games in a row ? This is import as it reflects on A) and what complexity of list you can play well with.

2) design your fleet, this should be built around the outcome of your strategic planning, it's also a balance of understanding the economics of the game and the cost vs quality of potential component and how they interact.

3)test your fleets, know how they move on the table as units, istrengths and weaknesses, what ships do what, which ships can you loss ?Make sure you are happy with each component.

4) understand activation and its impact on the game, your fleet lives and dies by you activation decisions, in my view this is the single biggest none random part of the game.

5) make sure the game plays out as you want it to ( see 1,2,3,4)

They are the bits I think make a difference.