I think you're only one realization away from it, which might be why it is so maddening.

You may be well served reading articles, as previously mentioned, but making note of all the variables you see, regardless of their category: Speed, armament, cost, ship count, activations, maneuvers, formations, commands, all of it. Build up the vocabulary before you try to conjugate.

God's. . . When I first started playing competitively I was so frustrated! I could not figure out what was wrong. What I was doing wrong. . . It was so annoying. . . Eventually it clicked and I became better. Just find your niche

What was your realization? Finding weaker opponents?

I want to say thanks for the help here guys, this is definitely giving me lots to think about.

And keep it coming.

I will say, in that last game, my overwhelming impression is that his list is what won it for him. the Assult Frigates CAN take gunnery team, and with Ackbar they are throwing the same number of dice from their side as my vics were from the front, but his intel officers and XI-7s meant that I was getting no benefit from defense tokens while he was.

I predicted his movement perfectly, maneuvered so that my best arcs were constantly facing all of his fleet, rolled well and still lost.

I did think the feel of the game improved a lot with the higher point totals and large ships. He and I are planning a 600 point game for this weekend to see if that effects our experience at all. After the pasting he game me last time, a natural reaction is for me to switch out my list significantly, and I get the impression that a lot of you would agree, except I suspect he is going to play something completely different and that a group of heavy hitters might perform better next time.

Well I will say that I have been MIA for awhile because of Life and now that I am back I was looking through the forums and YouTube for some good battle reports and any new tactical threads concerning wave 2. But I am sorry to say that I was a little disappointed to find very little on general tactics and good combinations, it's mostly a myopic "I love this..." type of thread that doesn't really explain why they love it in any detail. More of a "I kicked butt and it was awesome..." sort of feel which does not help.

As for YouTube as I watched I saw more of what I wouldn't do as I watched the players make mistakes in game but felt little actual advice from players is really given. (Though there was a recent one released this week with the new wave two ships where the winner took time after game to explain what he saw that went wrong and when it happened, and I agreed with him whole heartedly, and that is the kind of stuff we need people to do more of.)

Maybe it is time for the Wizards to work their magic again and do a tactical recap with the new Wave 2 in mind and have discussions on how ships fit into fleets and what the new Admirals and upgrades can do for the older ships?

I think you're only one realization away from it, which might be why it is so maddening.

You may be well served reading articles, as previously mentioned, but making note of all the variables you see, regardless of their category: Speed, armament, cost, ship count, activations, maneuvers, formations, commands, all of it. Build up the vocabulary before you try to conjugate.

God's. . . When I first started playing competitively I was so frustrated! I could not figure out what was wrong. What I was doing wrong. . . It was so annoying. . . Eventually it clicked and I became better. Just find your niche

What was your realization? Finding weaker opponents?

[...]the Assult Frigates CAN take gunnery team, and with Ackbar they are throwing the same number of dice from their side as my vics were from the front, but his intel officers and XI-7s meant that I was getting no benefit from defense tokens while he was.

Yeah, Ackbar is a bear. I'm not sure we (the Empire) have yet really figured out how to deal with him, but some good Imperial folks are suggesting to Rhymer him to nothingness.

And by 'Rhymer him to nothingness' I mean take the maximum amount of squadrons - Rhymer, bombers with good escorts, and build some strong carriers to project them with.

Well I will say that I have been MIA for awhile because of Life and now that I am back I was looking through the forums and YouTube for some good battle reports and any new tactical threads concerning wave 2. But I am sorry to say that I was a little disappointed to find very little on general tactics and good combinations, it's mostly a myopic "I love this..." type of thread that doesn't really explain why they love it in any detail. More of a "I kicked butt and it was awesome..." sort of feel which does not help.

As for YouTube as I watched I saw more of what I wouldn't do as I watched the players make mistakes in game but felt little actual advice from players is really given. (Though there was a recent one released this week with the new wave two ships where the winner took time after game to explain what he saw that went wrong and when it happened, and I agreed with him whole heartedly, and that is the kind of stuff we need people to do more of.)

Maybe it is time for the Wizards to work their magic again and do a tactical recap with the new Wave 2 in mind and have discussions on how ships fit into fleets and what the new Admirals and upgrades can do for the older ships?

(Though there was a recent one released this week with the new wave two ships where the winner took time after game to explain what he saw that went wrong and when it happened, and I agreed with him whole heartedly, and that is the kind of stuff we need people to do more of.)

Don't happen to have a link, do you?

I have seen a couple threads on the X-Wing forums giving advice to new players such as "Randomly toss 12-15 obstacles on a board and then fly a few ships back and forth around the board trying not to hit them" as a way to practice maneuvering. Are there any tasks like that that could be done to practice skills in armada?

What was your realization? Finding weaker opponents?

Why are you my friend again?

Probably because I feed you, give you rides, and pay your tournament fees.

So I take it then that nobody can recommend any good video battle reports?

I have seen a couple threads on the X-Wing forums giving advice to new players such as "Randomly toss 12-15 obstacles on a board and then fly a few ships back and forth around the board trying not to hit them" as a way to practice maneuvering. Are there any tasks like that that could be done to practice skills in armada?

You can drive some conga lines and find out how not to crash into yourself when you have to move the rear ship(s) before the forward ship(s). Get the spacing right.

Which is only really relevant if you're a Rebel, which I really hope you're not. I'd hate to be giving advice to the enemy.

You can drive some conga lines and find out how not to crash into yourself when you have to move the rear ship(s) before the forward ship(s). Get the spacing right.

Which is only really relevant if you're a Rebel, which I really hope you're not. I'd hate to be giving advice to the enemy.

No, loyal member of the new order.

I've actually been surprised at how well I can keep my ships from crashing into each other, although I do have to activate them in a specific order.

(Though there was a recent one released this week with the new wave two ships where the winner took time after game to explain what he saw that went wrong and when it happened, and I agreed with him whole heartedly, and that is the kind of stuff we need people to do more of.)

Don't happen to have a link, do you?

I have seen a couple threads on the X-Wing forums giving advice to new players such as "Randomly toss 12-15 obstacles on a board and then fly a few ships back and forth around the board trying not to hit them" as a way to practice maneuvering. Are there any tasks like that that could be done to practice skills in armada?

Now just keep in mind the Imperial player had the right idea to try and nose crash the MC80's but his upgrades were a little left for wanting and you will see his lack of real fighter support hurt him in the end. But they have a real friendly game and the end advice sounds good.

No, loyal member of the new order.

Your faith in our order pleases me, Admiral Lore. As for 'Exercises', if moving them is easy then try looking into Naval Formations. Two raiders and a Glad can cover almost an entire MtG Playmat in a field of 2-8 dice if placed correctly.

EDIT:

The raiders will be the base of a triangle 20CM long and 12cm from each corner of the Glad which should be about 15cm up the center.

there's a lot more attention to be paid to the positioning of ships relative to one another,

This might be part of the issue. The maneuvering in Armada seems so inflexible. The maneuver tool only has so many positions and the slower ships don't seem to have ANY options. Each time a Vic moves, if you discount the REALLY stupid options like turning away from the enemy, it only has 1-2 options. so it feels like there is no choice there. now, I can already hear people saying "that's where planning ahead comes in", but if you don't have a decent spread of options to choose from, then planning a head doesn't accomplish anything.

The exact opposite in fact. The limited maneuvering capabilities is what makes planning essential. Knowing where you can move and where your opponent can is a very central part of the planning process. It starts with your fleet building/pick of objectives, continues through placement of obstacles and ships, and choice of maneuver commands (or not).

This is what makes Armada special to me. Part of that 'chessy' feel if you will.

A few specific questions,

Would some small scale, limited format games be at all instructive? Something like 100-150 point fleets with no admirals or squadrons. Would that simplify things adequately so that we would be able to actually see the moving parts and figure out what is going on, or does that remove to many elements and whatever lessons learned wouldn't be applicable to a regular sized game?

Conversely, what about an especially large game? does a bigger game exaggerate the aspects of the game so you can see them working better, or does it conceal them by adding even more stuff to keep track of?

Do squadrons radically change how ship's fly? I think both my friend and I went squadron-less last game because we were trying to focus on just a single aspect (ships) and figure that out first. My concern is that squadrons might alter the nature of the game to strongly for that to actually work.

I'm still bitterly disappointed by the scope of this game. when they announced it at GenCon I really wanted to be able to fly a legitimate fleet. A flagship, a couple medium-large capital ships, a half dozen small support ships and a dozen or more fighter squadrons. Sigh.

I will say, in that last game, my overwhelming impression is that his list is what won it for him. the Assult Frigates CAN take gunnery team, and with Ackbar they are throwing the same number of dice from their side as my vics were from the front, but his intel officers and XI-7s meant that I was getting no benefit from defense tokens while he was.

I predicted his movement perfectly, maneuvered so that my best arcs were constantly facing all of his fleet, rolled well and still lost.

I did think the feel of the game improved a lot with the higher point totals and large ships. He and I are planning a 600 point game for this weekend to see if that effects our experience at all. After the pasting he game me last time, a natural reaction is for me to switch out my list significantly, and I get the impression that a lot of you would agree, except I suspect he is going to play something completely different and that a group of heavy hitters might perform better next time.

Based on what you've told us about his list that's a fair post-game analysis. That's the power behind broadside Ackbar lists.

The best way to counter this I can think of is have similarly disgusting offensive combinations included in your list. Anything from basic fighters to park in his flight path and bomb into oblivion to nasty defense-negating cards like Intel Officers, NK-7s, H9s, and so on. You need to craft your star destroyers such that when they strike, they hurt more than his ships do. Then as first player you have a shot and punching out a ship before it has to strike during the turn.

I don't mean any offence but it sounds like you are approaching a game that is mostly planning and strategy (what some call theorycrafting) with very little to no planning and strategy. I understand that your frustration seems to arise from the fact that you can't grok WTF the strategy would even look like, which is bound to make anyone mental.

I would say it is said all through these forums that Armada is a game where 25% of your success is decided by how you build your list to a strategy, 25% is based on how you deploy your list before the battle with respect to Objectives, 25% is dependent on how many mistakes your opponent makes in his 50% and 25% is up to how well you capitalize in the heat of battle end execute that strategy. A navigate or engineering or whatever command at just the right time can literally tip the balance of a game. I have literally lost a game because my engineering command was exactly 1 round too late and I can point to exactly that moment as when I lost, it was all on a razors edge until then and this is the beauty and glory of Armada.

Here is my suggestion:

Before you even hit the table, have your buddy make a list and show it to you. Then you prepare a list that is designed specifically to beat that list (by this I mean, if he has no squadrons, bring a pure bomber rhymerball, for example. If he has a low activation list bring a high activation list full of naked ships and rogue squadrons etc etc). If you can FIND the strategy to beat that list, and are able to EXECUTE that strategy you will start to understand this game, if you aren't able to execute that specific strategy you should be able to determine why not. You should be able to determine when you manouvered wrong, sent bombers in too soon, which upgrades gave little to no benefit etc. If you are able to execute the strategy and win, it's your friends turn to design a list that beats yours and execute. Repeat a few times and it will quickly become clear and you will be addicted like we are.

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

I am fairly certain I spend more time designing lists and theorizing strategies than playing the actual game....

A few specific questions,

Would some small scale, limited format games be at all instructive? Something like 100-150 point fleets with no admirals or squadrons. Would that simplify things adequately so that we would be able to actually see the moving parts and figure out what is going on, or does that remove to many elements and whatever lessons learned wouldn't be applicable to a regular sized game?

Conversely, what about an especially large game? does a bigger game exaggerate the aspects of the game so you can see them working better, or does it conceal them by adding even more stuff to keep track of?

Do squadrons radically change how ship's fly? I think both my friend and I went squadron-less last game because we were trying to focus on just a single aspect (ships) and figure that out first. My concern is that squadrons might alter the nature of the game to strongly for that to actually work.

I'm still bitterly disappointed by the scope of this game. when they announced it at GenCon I really wanted to be able to fly a legitimate fleet. A flagship, a couple medium-large capital ships, a half dozen small support ships and a dozen or more fighter squadrons. Sigh.

Running the introduction scenario can give you some pointers on the strengths and weaknesses of the ships. Running without any upgrades is a good way to understand the character of each ship as well, regardless of upgrades.

I don't think there's any problems with larger point games, just expect the game to go longer. With more ships in play and more activations to resolve rounds are going to take longer. The first round of pure manuvering goes quickly, and the last round with fewer ships can go that quick too, but the middle when you're resolving attacks and fighter attacks will take a while. It'll give you the epic feeling you might feel you're missing though.

I think the easiest way to understand fighters is as flying turrets attached to their parent ships. Bombers are extra attacks that can deplete defense tokens and/or cause damage on the enemy ship before the carrier attacks. Fighters prevent this from happening. And the cycle continues. B-Wings and Rhymer with other TIE bombers are the most effective anit-capital fighters on either side. It is a good resource to have on the battlefield and a small microcosm within Armada itself.

Another friend of mine was as disappointed as you were regarding real Armadas when I played the intro set with him. It's only later that I realized the "Armada" of this game isn't what you bring to the table necessarily, the Armada is your entire collection. My fleet is already fifteen ships big including both sides, and it will increase with Wave 2. Having my entire collection on the board would make the 6x3 space nearly unplable because of how many ships are deployed, but it would be truly epic.

Frankly I'm fine with the limited number of ships. 300 points felt ridiculous, but 400 points and running a large with two mediums feels right to me as an Imperial player. I can still juggle around points to take lighter elements, but I'm pleased running battle groups. This also means that 800 point 2v2 games can also be epic.

I am fairly certain I spend more time designing lists and theorizing strategies than playing the actual game....

I frequently come up with a list at the last minute, and barely know what the components on my opponents' ships do.

It doesn't seem to have hampered me too much.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

This is really being immensely helpful. It is 1:30 AM here now and I really should to go to bed, but I don't want to because this thread is so enjoyable.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Fighters are one such mechanic.

Lots of fighters < some fighters < no fighters < lotsa fighters, etc, etc.

Some fighters beat lots because they can keep bomber wings tangled up for long enough to ruin any chance of them having a big impact on the game at large.

Highly recommend running a CR90/Neb-B list. Won't win you all the games but it's a LOT more forgiving with the lower command ratings. Better to spend a few games losing and learning.

There is frequent talk in the X-Wing meta about a rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Does anything similar exist in Armada, and if so what defines each element? That might be part of the problem with list building, I don't know what factors to consider.

Not immediately. As Kittens said, fighters are kind of that way. Empire fighters are generally geared more for killing enemy fighters in general (with bombers as an afterthought), while the Rebellion has a lot of general-use fighters (with their afterthought A-Wing being the only fighter lacking bomber).

This isn't a game of hard counters to things. Properly driven CR-90s can annoy ISDs, but they aren't a direct counter. It's one of the reasons the game is nicely diverse.