Need some help here. Something about Armada is just not working with me (or really anyone at my LGS). The game just seems totally random. I played about a dozen games with wave 1, and now that wave 2 is out I've played 2 with the new stuff and it really doesn't seem like anything I do has much impact on the outcome. Case in point, this last Sunday, played a game with a friend. I flew well (kept getting front arc shots with both Vics and the ISD), maneuvered to counter his deployment so that he couldn't outflank me, rolled well (really well actually), got totally demolished. ISD 2 with 10 damage cards the first round he fired on it (which was after he vaporized the 2 Vics). Friday before that, day I bought the ISD, we played a game and I creamed him. No idea why. And he agrees with me. For both of us the game seems like there is supposed to be more to it, but to us it just feels like we are making decisions almost randomly because the outcome of each round never seems connected to what we do. We're both experienced wargamers, been playing X-Wing for years and other games before that, but we just can't seem to grok this one. I know other people at the store feel similarly.

Any advice?

All that being said, I do have to admit that SW:Armada is probably the best fleet scale starship combat game I have encountered since Star Fleet Battles, but that isn't a really difficult bar to clear. I WANT to like it, but so far I just can't seem to get into it at all like I have X-Wing.

legit need pics or something because the description is too vague to get an accurate read on anything

Armada's largely about foresight, as the ships are so heavily dependent on pre-set commands and shooting before they move (save Demolisher ofc), so whoever's best at thinking ahead usually comes out on top

RNG has little to no impact on the game outside of incredibly stupid swings, relative to other dice-games (even the unreliable red dice have a 75% chance of doing something versus X-wing's 50% unmodified; no green dice to **** things up)

Mate, I'm hearing ya.

I bought Armada and struggled to grasp it (first minis game experience mind you) so I bought x-wing thinking it would be an easier introduction. Since then I've poured mountains of time and money into x-wing with a few good mates and we've only played about 3 games of armada, always going straight back to the x-wing afterwards.

I'm never sure if it's too complex to actually flow through or if I'm just missing the whole point of it. But yeah, I'm finding it hard to love as much as I wish I could!

Armada is like chess.

But all we know is there was a ISD and 2 vics. No word on the other fleet. If you ran only a ISD and 2 vics with no sqaudrons. And the other player brought ships and a handfull of a wings and bombers.

Also what mission objective where taken?

A mc80 with the advance gunnery and going as 2nd player can fire 5 red and 3 blue per shot or a total of 10 red and 6 blue. Toss in defence title and that two more black. Toss in y wing and that 4 more black dice being tossed.

Not every game is for everybody but I found X-Wing to be far more random with the attack and defense dice. With Armada it is more about resource management and how to make that work the best.

Yes you can have someone throw 10 damage at an ISD but that is Very Lucky and that same luck happens in all games that use some form of randomization. But my question would be why didn't that ISD have Advanced Countermeasures on it to prevent that massive amount of damage by making your Brace always available? And if you're getting peppered by a bunch of fighters and bombers why are you not bringing in Ties to defend your ISD from them?

But again Armada will not be for everyone, it's a more complex thinking game that is not going to be forgiving if you get yourself in a situation.

For me at least, totally removing dice rolls for ship survival is a Godsend that makes it hard to go back to X-Wing. Here, dice are purely to determine offensive outcomes. I have always been frustrated with my green dice and being totally unable to do anything about it... the switch to a resource-allocation mechanic with defense tokens is an immense relief.

It is hard to say where you're having difficulty based on your text, Forgotten. But I think I will agree with Fickle that foresight and pre-planning do have a significant part of gameplay. In X-Wing it's a matter of where you place on the board, generally your opening moves, and what kind of combinations to rely on when it hits the fan. It isn't as rigid as Armada, though Armada does place importance on these aspects too.

Armada has this whole mechanic of commands which enhances the performance of individual ships- something that is alien to X-Wing. This is also important for list building and game planning because you need to consider how quickly your ships can respond to commands, and how many turns in advance you need to plan.

When I sit down with my Imperial and two Victories, I already know the strengths of my list and the kinds of strategies I can employ against my opponent as they are setting up. I know fighters are my weakness, so I have to carefully send my few fighters into the fray to tie up enemy fighters while I beat up their capital ships. I have to position myself in such a way that I can intercept any enemy flankers reasonably. And I need to be concerned with what commands to have in advance for contingency's sake.

For a rebel player it could be entirely different if they run ships with fewer commands, like a Nebulon and corvette list. All they need worry about is where their wave of Nebs is going and how they want to flank with CR-90s they've already pre-equipped for special duty (say CR-90Bs with NK-7s).

If nothing else, Armada is the more stately and plan-driven game than X-Wing's randomness and seat-of-the-pants flying. I find I'm preferring the more stable one than the random one, and I'm not nearly as frustrated with my games as X-Wing was becoming.

legit need pics or something because the description is too vague to get an accurate read on anything

Pics (and description) of what? I am happy to provide whatever info I can, but I'm not asking "why did I loose this particular match", rather I'm asking "what is it about this game in general am I not getting"

For some more details on my match Sunday. I had an ISD2 and 2 Vic2's, all with Gunnery teams, Vader as admiral, assorted upgrades that allowed me to use excess accuracy results as damage, the "regenerate a shield each turn" on the ISD, no squadrons. He had a MC80 with Ackbar and 2 Mk II frigates all kitted out to prevent me from using my defense tokens, also no squadrons. Missions was "Dangerous Territory (?)", (overlap an obstacle first for 15 VPs) and I was 1st player.

But again, I'm not asking about the specific match last Sunday, but the game in general. I LIKE big, complex games that require forethought and planning. Among my favorite games of all time are Twilight Imperium, Star Fleet Battles, Axis and Allies (and chess). This game though doesn't feel like chess. Armada feels like Chutes and Ladders while X-Wing feels like chess. It feels like no decisions I am making during the game are actually influencing the outcome. And it is frustrating to me because I WANT to like it sooo much.

Wait, X-Wing is more like chess for you? I feel completely different were Armada has the chess feel while X-Wing feels more like Poker (Quick in the moment decision, bluffing were your moving and reacting to the moment by moment quick changes where as Armada unfolds more slowly.) But there is nothing wrong with Poker and many people like that style of play.

I enjoy both Armada and X-wing, but honestly, I find I like Armada much more, and for reasons completely contrary to the OP's experience. Armada seems to me to be far from random. Of course, the dice may do wild and unexpected things, but the majority of the games comes down to both players laying out a plan via fleet composition, upgrades, and deployment, then implementing that plan with necessary adjustments for whatever the other fleet might do which doesn't fit the original strategy. While I've been surprised at the outcome of a few Armada matches, I never thought the results appeared random. Rather, there turned out to be repercussions of certain combinations of ships and upgrades which produced results I didn't anticipate, making some ships or strategies prove far more effective than I expected.

That said, I will admit that I've seen the fortunes of war swing to extreme degrees in some matches, and it can be quite shocking the first time you watch your tank-like Star Destroyer go from undamaged to wreckage in the space of a couple of combat rounds. Especially if the CR90 you've been trying to kill has managed to survive despite having literally half your starting hull value...

Wait, X-Wing is more like chess for you? I feel completely different were Armada has the chess feel while X-Wing feels more like Poker (Quick in the moment decision, bluffing were your moving and reacting to the moment by moment quick changes where as Armada unfolds more slowly.) But there is nothing wrong with Poker and many people like that style of play.

Yes. In X-Wing I get a strong sense of maneuvering for position, projecting force onto particular areas and using overlapping threat zones to cover my pieces. Yeah, the random element can totally screw you (I have the worst dice luck, just ask anybody who knows me), but positioning and maneuver is so important. In Armada I just get the impression that you just have to make sure you deploy so that you can get favorable arcs on the enemy and after that it is just drift toward each other and hope you roll better than the other guy.

If one side or the other is getting demolished, then clearly something is happening on the board that is facilitating that result. The fact that neither of you may have intended to do what you did doesn't change that. So, you have to figure out why things happened.

To use your example game, why did your opponent take out your VSD's first? Did he manage to focus fire on them, while you were unable to concentration your fire in return? If so, that means your opponent DID outmaneuver you, which led to your defeat. One ISD is not going to stand up to the combined firepower of Ackbar'd AF's and an MC80. Let's assume that scenario to be true - then you need to ask how you could have deployed differently and moved so that you were the one concentrating fire, and denying it to your opponent.

What if you had ignored the mission and focused on his ships? What if you had brought a bunch of TiE bombers and damaged his ships at long range before engaging? What if you had slowed the VSD's so the ISD and both VSD's engaged the enemy simultaneously?

I would encourage you to keep playing and really givebit a concentrated effort. Play the same list for three games in a row to figure out how best to play it. Then switch it up and try something completely different, for three games in a row. I'll bet you'll start to see some patterns emerging.

Armada is far more chess like than X-wing, and the alternating activation cements this

X-wing's fun, but its a beast of a different nature. Rather than alternating activation, PS automates the process and ships can boost/roll/cloak/slam out for very flexible movement in addition to their preselected dial move (most of which are present on every ship, I can't even think of a ship that doesn't have all the two maneuvers even if the turns are sometimes red)

In Armada, each individual ship is far more stiff than your typical soontir (for obvious reasons, they're a mite bigger) and they will be far more restrictive in comparison until you get the hang of it. In addition, the split into four "firing arcs" (hullzones) means that positioning is all the more essential as it can make the difference between the ISD demolishing a target or shooting like a Cr-90 with concentrate fire

there's a lot more attention to be paid to the positioning of ships relative to one another, especially when considering how stiff some are (VSDs and ISDs and MC 80s going nose to nose with other medium/large ships literally cannot move past one another because the bases are too fat) and because of alternating activation, which can lead to things such as

1.) player with initiative zooms out of your ship's most powerful hull-zone

2.) a player with more ships can force you to activate your entire fleet before he has to activate all his ships, letting him control ranges by keeping a key ship out of range until after you've activated

3.) having to balance the opportunity to fire on a major target with the order in which your ships move, and if the two are ever out of synch there will be trouble (example: super ISD will demolish a Neb but drift right in front of your other ships, forcing collisions)

and so on

I'm not sure about Empire (too much empire in my group, someone needs to rebel) but the rebellion can learn with the Afmk2 and now Akbar, as they're very forgiving ships (wide-ass side-arcs where most of their fire is concentrated, bulky and reasonably maneuverable).

The empire doesn't seem to have that option, as the chunky VSD is a stiff bastard and the ISD, while amazing, has the fattest of asses and takes getting used to.

the "easiest" (easy to learn, stupid difficult to master; that's this game for you) list I've personally been able to make, at least from my limited opportunity to test it, is:

ISD-2 (motti, needa, gunnery team, electronic counter-measures, x-17s)

VSD-1 (tractor beams)

VSD-1 (tractor beams)

Bossk

'spray

'spray

'spray

it ain't fast, but they're very chuncky and the Rogue squadrons are hands free enough to teach you a very important lesson:

navigate command is your bestest friend

worst comes to worst, the fleet can win just by steamrolling through poorly positioned rebels. The ISD-2 in particular can win games by herself if the opponent doesn't know how to play against it

sometimes, just presenting a simple, blunt threat will inspire players to find a way to defeat it

other than that,

Nav tokens are life-savers

**** generally goes down on round 3, given typical speed 2 manuevering, so plan your commands around that

big ships making few, big attacks care far more about token-mitigating upgrades than lots of little nippy buggers who can just power through exhausted tokens

concentrated fire (not the command; actual concentrated fire) will mow down anything in the game in surprisingly quick order, even an ISD. Like X-wing, you're trying to bring as much to bear on a single target at a time while denying your opponent the same opportunity

Wait, X-Wing is more like chess for you? I feel completely different were Armada has the chess feel while X-Wing feels more like Poker (Quick in the moment decision, bluffing were your moving and reacting to the moment by moment quick changes where as Armada unfolds more slowly.) But there is nothing wrong with Poker and many people like that style of play.

Yes. In X-Wing I get a strong sense of maneuvering for position, projecting force onto particular areas and using overlapping threat zones to cover my pieces. Yeah, the random element can totally screw you (I have the worst dice luck, just ask anybody who knows me), but positioning and maneuver is so important. In Armada I just get the impression that you just have to make sure you deploy so that you can get favorable arcs on the enemy and after that it is just drift toward each other and hope you roll better than the other guy.

I mostly command Rebels because I like the faster feel of the ships and the flexibility to change my plans at least a turn faster than Imperial ships.

Try this, set all of your ships to one speed slower than max (specific numbers don't matter here). Then do nothing but navigates. The first time you see an Assault Frigate "drift" the whole game opens up a lot.

Now I don't want to tell you how you should play or that you are wrong, we are all different, but I might have a few suggestions.

One is try and not make your whole fleet Large Heavy hitting ships, bring some Raiders and GSD's, they are far more maneuverable and react better to the turning tides. Also bring Squadrons with the new Villains. They really are good and I think made the game more entertaining and fluid. These tend to make your opponent change their tactics if their ships are looking to get a bunch of bombers to the face.

Hope you find your grove in Armada but if not X-Wing is not going away anytime and new ships are coming out soon!

... In Armada I just get the impression that you just have to make sure you deploy so that you can get favorable arcs on the enemy and after that it is just drift toward each other and hope you roll better than the other guy.

This is how I perceive X-Wing because there is only ONE arc of attack that you must rely on to be able to attack and destroy your enemy.

To some extent what you say is true, because the nature of every unit in Armada is the ability to attack in all directions with varying degrees of attack power to find the most optimal angles. That you have this impression playing the Imperials is not surprising because slow-moving ISD-VSD-VSD lists (of the kind I like to play) do exactly that. We roll forward like glaciers and utterly smash anything in our path with choice and deadly upgrade cards (Avenger title, NK-7s, Overload Pulse, Intel Officers, H9s, to name a few). Such lists place importance on specific combinations you build on your capital ships to cause the most amount of damage in the way you want to when you attack.

For example, my VSD-ISD list uses two VSD-IIs armed with Overload pulses to set up an attack by the ISD Avenger. By exhausting my opponent's defense tokens before I fire, I've set up a combination where my Avenger attack is totally unopposed. Coming out of such a huge arc of firepower, ships are going to suffer tremendous damage. If they happened to pick Advanced Gunnery with me as second player, no ship will survive except if I roll poorly.

However, you may have more fun with the Rebels. The lighter and faster CR-90s are the king of maneuver and placement in the game, and expertly-driven CR-90s can cause all manner of fits for ISD drivers. Same thing with properly driven Gladiator Star destroyers. Maneuver is important in this game, but you won't see it in the example game that you have mentioned.

For some more details on my match Sunday. I had an ISD2 and 2 Vic2's, all with Gunnery teams, Vader as admiral, assorted upgrades that allowed me to use excess accuracy results as damage, the "regenerate a shield each turn" on the ISD, no squadrons. He had a MC80 with Ackbar and 2 Mk II frigates all kitted out to prevent me from using my defense tokens, also no squadrons. Missions was "Dangerous Territory (?)", (overlap an obstacle first for 15 VPs) and I was 1st player.

But again, I'm not asking about the specific match last Sunday, but the game in general. I LIKE big, complex games that require forethought and planning. Among my favorite games of all time are Twilight Imperium, Star Fleet Battles, Axis and Allies (and chess). This game though doesn't feel like chess. Armada feels like Chutes and Ladders while X-Wing feels like chess. It feels like no decisions I am making during the game are actually influencing the outcome. And it is frustrating to me because I WANT to like it sooo much.

Wait, how was he configuring his ships to prevent you from using defense tokens? He'd have to either have H9s or Intelligence officers, and part of Armada strategy is considering how you would deal with such cards opposite of you. The presence of those cards doesn't automatically shut down all of your defensive options. That is part of the depth of this game, building your list to be able to counter the presence of some cards. This is especially the case for some of the critical-ability cards, which are not present in X-Wing.

The only card that does this is the Avenger, and only with exhausted defense tokens.

If I may, I'd like to examine your list. Since you can't seem to recall all of your cards I'm guessing you took cards that sounded good to augment the gunnery teams and Vader as an easy re-roller? I might be presumptuous here, but it seems you didn't build a list with a forethought plan in mind. You don't construct a buzzsaw shuttle and TIE Fighters in an X-Wing list without some idea of how you'll lay out your deployment and what kind of cards to use to help that strategy, right?

As I mentioned above, when building a list you need to consider what kind of card combinations you're putting together and what they do in a list. I mentioned the OP VSDs with avenger above, but there can be others. For instance, an ISD-I can take Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms, and a Wing commander to, at will, activate 5 fighters with extra blue die on the attack, and out to long range. If you have Howlrunner in that list now activated TIE Interceptors will be striking with six dice with a re-roll out to long range from their parent carrier.

It is a mistake to presume that Armada is lacking depth considering the game is a successor of sorts to X-Wing. It builds upon the expansion and upgrade system of X-Wing and improves the engine substantially to something more strategic and stately. X-Wing is still always going to feel unwieldy to me, in part because of the staggering amount of expansions now and because of how often the game had to be FAQ'ed. Armada may get there some day, but FFG is taking it's time with it and took the effort to give us a clear presentation from Day one.

Again, I would recommend that you try the rebels' style of play and experiment with the smaller ships. You may find it more rewarding since of the two factions, the Rebels are more in-tune with positional advantages.

there's a lot more attention to be paid to the positioning of ships relative to one another,

This might be part of the issue. The maneuvering in Armada seems so inflexible. The maneuver tool only has so many positions and the slower ships don't seem to have ANY options. Each time a Vic moves, if you discount the REALLY stupid options like turning away from the enemy, it only has 1-2 options. so it feels like there is no choice there. now, I can already hear people saying "that's where planning ahead comes in", but if you don't have a decent spread of options to choose from, then planning a head doesn't accomplish anything.

I think that ficklegreendice has the valuable insight here.

Armada really is about foresight, and making the right decisions several turns (or before the game) before the ships get into firing distance of one another. In any dice game dice will matter, but the dice will rarely be the critical determining factor.

Understanding that aspect of the game takes experience and you and your fellows probably just need to give it time to accrue.If you're not really sure what you're doing during deployment, it's probably tough to figure out what made for the good or the bad plan when the battle happened.

Now, I'm not the best forward thinker, and this is advice that I could give myself as well: If you're at the stage that you aren't thinking far ahead yet, then you should probably choose one of the following: Choose a fleet that will allow you to correct for mistakes (ie. small ships and squadrons), or choose a fleet that will allow you to play conservatively (big ships that tank; drive slowly).

Try this, set all of your ships to one speed slower than max (specific numbers don't matter here). Then do nothing but navigates. The first time you see an Assault Frigate "drift" the whole game opens up a lot.

Not quite sure what you mean here? Do this during a game, or set this up as a practice scenario? What do you mean by drift?

there's a lot more attention to be paid to the positioning of ships relative to one another,

This might be part of the issue. The maneuvering in Armada seems so inflexible. The maneuver tool only has so many positions and the slower ships don't seem to have ANY options. Each time a Vic moves, if you discount the REALLY stupid options like turning away from the enemy, it only has 1-2 options. so it feels like there is no choice there. now, I can already hear people saying "that's where planning ahead comes in", but if you don't have a decent spread of options to choose from, then planning a head doesn't accomplish anything.

In case you didn't catch my long post above, the VSD is a poor choice to examine ship manuverabiilty. Most Star Destroyers are rolling glaciers.

If you want to explore the flexibility of movement in Armada, try driving CR-90s. They're a lot of fun.

And honestly I think the couse-plotting snake is a lot more flexible (heh), and easier to use than the maneuver templates we're given for X-Wing.

Now I don't want to tell you how you should play or that you are wrong, we are all different, but I might have a few suggestions.

By all means. This is what i am basically asking for, some advice on things to do.

As a side note (I don't think this has anything to do with me not getting the game), list building in Armada is sooooo much harder than in X-Wing, or just about any other wargame I have played. Then again, maybe it does have something to do with it. I never liked deck-building in Magic and this feels a lot more like that than x-Wing does. Hmm.

Try this, set all of your ships to one speed slower than max (specific numbers don't matter here). Then do nothing but navigates. The first time you see an Assault Frigate "drift" the whole game opens up a lot.

Not quite sure what you mean here? Do this during a game, or set this up as a practice scenario? What do you mean by drift?

I think he means that you play a game in which you keep your maneuvering options open. Once your opponent makes a mistake, you will then be in a position to react to it and take advantage.

I fell for it the moment I played and I would not call it random at all (other than the dice).

Everything I do DOES impact the outcome for good or bad. Last night I was crushed, but I know why. It wasn't randomness but great fleet build, deployment and execution by my opponent.

You have to plan before to synergize your fleet. You have to deploy correctly according to the objective and initiative. You have to control your fleet.

I'm thinking the game just probably isn't your style?

there's a lot more attention to be paid to the positioning of ships relative to one another,

This might be part of the issue. The maneuvering in Armada seems so inflexible. The maneuver tool only has so many positions and the slower ships don't seem to have ANY options. Each time a Vic moves, if you discount the REALLY stupid options like turning away from the enemy, it only has 1-2 options. so it feels like there is no choice there. now, I can already hear people saying "that's where planning ahead comes in", but if you don't have a decent spread of options to choose from, then planning a head doesn't accomplish anything.

for the VSD, "planning ahead" is "how do I point my nose at the thing I want to die." This involves gauging the enemy position, seeing where he wants to go (Esp in relation to obstacles, not to mention objective choices) and cutting him off or waiting for him there

it's a big, blunt tank of a ship; truly the shuttle of Armada (right down to plopping it down somewhere to block your opponent) and literally the least maneuverable ship in the game.

Tractor beams greatly offset its horrid mobility, though.

If you want more mobile, more X-wing like ships then it's basically Cr-90s, Nebs, and Raiders. Demolisher with Engine Techs is probably the closest you'll get to X-wing (it can even shoot after it moves! hax )

Rebs in general have more flexibility ito mobility because the Afmk2, the Mc-80, and the MC-30 all emphasize powerful side arcs that can be fired both while barreling towards (at an angle) the enemy, or running or your life

for empire, it's more a question of range as in "how do I keep these assholes in disintegration distance?" as well as "arc."

Your Raiders and GSDs are more fragile than your ISDs and far more mobile than your VSDs, so if you want to bet your game on your X-wing-esque manuevering those are the imperial ships to go for. Not only do they have to disintegrate the enemy at close range, but they really have to respect the firepower of the rebel's punchier vessels by darting into their weaker hull-zones. Otherwise, they tend to come apart pretty quickly

I never liked deck-building in Magic and this feels a lot more like that than x-Wing does. Hmm.

Whoa! There's no need to get so mean about it! I thought you were here to get some good ideas, not troll the community.

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