also, all this talk of redundant shielding (which I personally do not think is worth it, fear of Akbar has basically mandated ECM) has made me want to do some shield silliness with large ships
sadly, the ISD does not have the support team, so no projection shenanigans. That card seems to have been made for the MC80 (with Raymus + repair, you can throw 2 shields and gain them back immediately), which might well be a possible use for that ship that I have overlooked
Since Sullust, I've generally run an ISD and VSD. (Oh, did I mention squadrons? Lots of squadrons.) I've lost with this list (It's always varying some) once or twice. (I'm like 17-3, IRL, and about 50-50 rebels, I remember I lost a battle, but can't remember if it was as Rebels or Imperials (I was on painkillers and in pain at the time.)) and had it destroyed once under my command. I have, with a Rebel fleet tabled it, and 2 VSDs, in one, and won vs it and a VSD. Losing a Neb B, corvette and an A-wing (maybe 2), and a Neb-B respectively. (Salvation for some reason tends to gets a lot of fire.)
I've found that quite often the VSD is ignored, because it can't maneuver well enough to engage, so it ends up flinging fighters out from long range. The ISD will also commonly use a squadron command, which gives the flying circus the chance to engage, and effectively, 4 of each color into a target's face. (The Black are nice and split up.) If double arced, that's 6 Red, 6 Blue, 4 Black. (Gets kind of silly when you consider the total damage it puts out using gunnery teams: 8 Red, 8 Blue, 4 Black). Technically Yavaris could out damage it, against a single target with a double arc (4 Red, 1 Blue shipwise, and 6 Black, 6 Blue, from B-Wings, 8 black, 4 Blue with the B-Wing ace) but only if your opponent has a bad day (and his helmsman deserves to be shot.)
The ISD2 is better than the ISD1, because if there's one thing small ships (and even most large ships) do not want: TO BE AT CLOSE RANGE OF THAT HUGE THING ON THE TABLE. So they tend to avoid it if at all possible. The difference between 8 dice and 5 (with blacks out of range) is large. Sure you can try for it, but you run the risk of you yourself having to go faster to get those blacks into range, and tractor beams take time to work generally.
The other reason of course for the ISD2 over the ISD1 is the issue of accuracy, brace and ECM. If I'm doing 6-9 damage with an accuracy (likely with Vader), and spent the points on XI-7s, then in 2 shots against another one that's 6-12 hull damage on the ship from 2 shots alone. Even bracing one of those times means it's *far* more likely to survive. (Still hurting, but 3-8 is far better than 6-12) ISD1 would average roughly the same, at close. (by some quick (slightly simple and slightly wrong) calcs assuming w/Vader RR blanks... and leaving out RRing Blue for accuracies, that's about 7.125 for an ISD1 (with an expected accuracy of .969 and a 33% chance of no accuracy (23% if Vader RR blue hits as well) (w/o Vader 6.75 and .875 with 37% chance of no accuracies) vs an ISD2 with 6.75 and 1.625 accuracy and 16% chance of no accuracy (7% if Vader RR blue hits as well). (6.25 and 1.325 with an 18% chance for no accuracies w/o vader)) So there's not that much tradeoff in damage. .5 w/o Vader vs .3725 w/Vader, but a lot more likely to have accuracy (remember, for these calcs I'm not RR Blue for accuracy on this, so that can increase a lot)) However, there is also a much higher chance of an accuracy on an ISD2, and if you don't take Vader, something like the RR ion cannons for 1 blue gives you a good chance at an accuracy as well.)
GOOD POST
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Edited by Deathseedman, I've tried building so many fleets with an ISD-1 and ISD-2
it's a titantic endevor 
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Money?
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Money?
Nope. Not a pressing issue.
Fiddling with lists trying to determine if two ISDs are a thing I can be comfortable with fielding tactically.
Came up with this:
1 • Imperial II-class Star Destroyer - Imperial-class Star Destroyer (120) - Darth Vader (36) - Captain Needa (2) - Gunnery Team (7) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6) - Electronic Countermeasures (7) - SW-7 Ion Batteries (5) - Avenger (5)
• Total : 188
2 • Imperial II-class Star Destroyer - Imperial-class Star Destroyer (120) - Engineering Captain (6) - Gunnery Team (7) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6) - Electronic Countermeasures (7) - Overload Pulse (8) - Relentless (3)
• Total : 157
3 • Raider II-class corvette - Raider class corvette (48) - Intel Officer (7)
• Total : 55
It would lose the points bid almost certainly (be tied at absolute best), and it would rely heavily on a one/two punch methodology, with some quick jabs from the Raider, but it could work.
It'd certainly look cool. (with that dinky little raider sandwiched between those monsters)
Edited by Deathseed
I have never been one for use of black dice, so ISD-2 is what I prefer. In the games I have run, I usually have it pretty tricked out. Around 180-185 points or so, SW-7 Ion batteries are amazing with Avenger and I never leave port without the Engineering Captain. That card has saved my bacon in both games I played with it. I also find that Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are just as good if not better than Xi-7's. Though, I have been tempted to try XX-9's with Avenger and I never run my ship without significant FIGHTER protection. It drives me nuts watching all these Imperial players running with zero, or to few Squadrons. IMO zero fighters might have worked out ok in wave-1, but in wave-2 it's fighter screen or you die. I'v also been running my ISD with Redundant shield, but want to see if ECM would be a better choice.
Redundant shield is a trap upgrade. I don't see why a savy player would take it.
When you consider the alternatives: Enh Projectors may not mitigate damage but it can maximize effective shields in a well-supported ISD (in other words if you make sure it wont get flanked or surrounded you only need shields from 1 or 2 arcs) and work well with 2 redirects, ECM is probably much better as well as it can ensure you actually get to use defense tokens (a locked down brace across 3 rounds of battle can cost you a LOT of damage) while redundant shileds' maximum contribution will only ever be 5 shields (if that), at 1 per round but you never take damage on round 1. 5 damage vs the other 2 options seems like a no brainer to me.
Redundant shields sync very well with the CR90 - anything that keeps them alive longer to harass is golden in my book.
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Money?
Nope. Not a pressing issue.
Fiddling with lists trying to determine if two ISDs are a thing I can be comfortable with fielding tactically.
2 ISDs do have a simple pattern you can use to get used to the pizza of death - use one as bait (your opponent will be focusing fire to take down one, then the other) and have the other come in almost as a flank. Let your opponent think they're taking the ideal strategy and have them fall right into your trap. Little flavor of both offense and defense.
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Because you can't fit much else in with two ISD's on the table. That means a good portion of your collection sits on a shelf somewhere.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
With two ISD's on the table, you don't need much else to make it a very powerful list...
Not sure if that helps or not. 
Myself I don't plan on getting more than one, but I tend to limit myself with expensive ships both here and in X-Wing. I'd rather have more different ships on the table then 2-3 of the same big ones.
hey guys,
I'll cut to the chase, the "problem" with this beast is that I'll never ever play an imperial list without it, not because it's stupid good, but because it's the goddamn ISD. I am, in fact, relatively certain that most of the local imperial players got into the game because of this ship
and why not? It's ******* gorgeous
Thing is, both myself and another player have identified the ISD-2 as being a pretty monstrous thing (especially on the rebel end, since it'll one-shot corvs and 2-shot nebs) but, far more than the Rebel Mon Cal, it'll eat your points.
The ISD-2 is 120 base, though it's actually 127 because you're going to take Gunnery Teams (don't even bother fighting that fact) and possibly 134 to 136 if ECM is as essential as Home One Akbar is making it seem and Needa continues to be as useful as he has been (seriously, 2 points is a steal).
By contrast, a command-cruiser Defiance can lumber around with Heavy turbo-laser turrets and ECM for 116, 4 less than the ISD-2 base cost. Note, this doesn't mean the ISD-2 is overpriced relative to the mon cal, as the ISD-2 is definitely a ship that can carry the game on its shoulders when properly supported whereas Defiance I feel cannot (lacking gunnery teams is really painful). The ISD-2 is a far more potent force than the VSD-2. The combination of 8 total dice and a vastly superior navigation chart make it an absolute terror to face
The problem, then, is one of list-building variety. It feels incredibly difficult to get enough bodies and squadrons while catering to the needs of this beast (and, because it's so **** iconic, it's so difficult to justify not taking it
As of now, I have been satisfied with Motti at the helm of an ISD-2 and double VSD-1 (+bossk and 3 sprays to compliment). It lacks in activations (4 seems to be the comfortable minimum in Wave 2) it makes up in pure hull and steam-roll potential.
How has everyone else been using the most iconic of Star Wars ships? Do you perhaps prefer the ISD-1?
I disagree. The ISD (either) needs at most 2-3 upgrades and possibly a title to make it amazing. An MC80 needs a title, defensive retrofit, officer, and either an ion cannon or turbolaser upgrade before it becomes truly unstoppable. The costs even out really quickly.
Absolutely get 2 ISDs.
If nothing else its great for when you throw tourney rules out the window and have an epic game (Buddy and I are going to do 1K points each list)
On top of that its actually a lot of fun to theorycraft a 2 ISD fleet. So many people pooh pooh it as leaving you no points and that's fine, it means they won't prepare for that eventuality, which just makes the meta more fun!
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
I want three. With Motti.
Because it creates an interesting Tarkin effect. In the last round of sullust I quietly built my Imperial fleet while the other players were helping the rebel player trick out his force. I immediately went to 2 VSDs, ISD-II, Raider-I, and Motti, to create a wall of spaceship that would be intimidating and insurmountable. I would like to try this with three Imperial Star Destroyers and count how many opponents I can make whimper in fear.
Absolutely get 2 ISDs.
If nothing else its great for when you throw tourney rules out the window and have an epic game (Buddy and I are going to do 1K points each list)
On top of that its actually a lot of fun to theorycraft a 2 ISD fleet. So many people pooh pooh it as leaving you no points and that's fine, it means they won't prepare for that eventuality, which just makes the meta more fun!
Yeah, I broke down and had my FLGS hold another one for me to pick up sometime this week.
But by all means, keep the discussion running folks, everyone here has interesting observations (except you Fickle.............I'm joking, I keed!)
Edited by DeathseedNot sure if your ISDs are great because ISD or because that Rebel player can't drive.
CR90? Speed 1? Landed on space rocks? In the front arc of every single Star Destroyer on the field?!?!
Might as well just have a 44 point bid for initiative.
If they're a newcomer, excellent teachable moment. If they're experienced, excellent wedgie-able moment.
(shudder) That's a rebel fleet right where the Emperor wants them.
I have never been one for use of black dice, so ISD-2 is what I prefer. In the games I have run, I usually have it pretty tricked out. Around 180-185 points or so, SW-7 Ion batteries are amazing with Avenger and I never leave port without the Engineering Captain. That card has saved my bacon in both games I played with it. I also find that Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are just as good if not better than Xi-7's. Though, I have been tempted to try XX-9's with Avenger and I never run my ship without significant FIGHTER protection. It drives me nuts watching all these Imperial players running with zero, or to few Squadrons. IMO zero fighters might have worked out ok in wave-1, but in wave-2 it's fighter screen or you die. I'v also been running my ISD with Redundant shield, but want to see if ECM would be a better choice.
Redundant shield is a trap upgrade. I don't see why a savy player would take it.
When you consider the alternatives: Enh Projectors may not mitigate damage but it can maximize effective shields in a well-supported ISD (in other words if you make sure it wont get flanked or surrounded you only need shields from 1 or 2 arcs) and work well with 2 redirects, ECM is probably much better as well as it can ensure you actually get to use defense tokens (a locked down brace across 3 rounds of battle can cost you a LOT of damage) while redundant shileds' maximum contribution will only ever be 5 shields (if that), at 1 per round but you never take damage on round 1. 5 damage vs the other 2 options seems like a no brainer to me.
Redundant shields sync very well with the CR90 - anything that keeps them alive longer to harass is golden in my book.
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Money?
Nope. Not a pressing issue.
Fiddling with lists trying to determine if two ISDs are a thing I can be comfortable with fielding tactically.
2 ISDs do have a simple pattern you can use to get used to the pizza of death - use one as bait (your opponent will be focusing fire to take down one, then the other) and have the other come in almost as a flank. Let your opponent think they're taking the ideal strategy and have them fall right into your trap. Little flavor of both offense and defense.
Are you seriously putting a 8 point upgrade on a 40 some point ship with low survivability?
You need to read this man.
I have never been one for use of black dice, so ISD-2 is what I prefer. In the games I have run, I usually have it pretty tricked out. Around 180-185 points or so, SW-7 Ion batteries are amazing with Avenger and I never leave port without the Engineering Captain. That card has saved my bacon in both games I played with it. I also find that Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are just as good if not better than Xi-7's. Though, I have been tempted to try XX-9's with Avenger and I never run my ship without significant FIGHTER protection. It drives me nuts watching all these Imperial players running with zero, or to few Squadrons. IMO zero fighters might have worked out ok in wave-1, but in wave-2 it's fighter screen or you die. I'v also been running my ISD with Redundant shield, but want to see if ECM would be a better choice.
Redundant shield is a trap upgrade. I don't see why a savy player would take it.
When you consider the alternatives: Enh Projectors may not mitigate damage but it can maximize effective shields in a well-supported ISD (in other words if you make sure it wont get flanked or surrounded you only need shields from 1 or 2 arcs) and work well with 2 redirects, ECM is probably much better as well as it can ensure you actually get to use defense tokens (a locked down brace across 3 rounds of battle can cost you a LOT of damage) while redundant shileds' maximum contribution will only ever be 5 shields (if that), at 1 per round but you never take damage on round 1. 5 damage vs the other 2 options seems like a no brainer to me.
Redundant shields sync very well with the CR90 - anything that keeps them alive longer to harass is golden in my book.
Having real trouble making myself not get a second ISD (almost certainly getting a third Raider).
Somebody tell me why I shouldn't.
Somebody else tell me why I should just give in and do it.
Money?
Nope. Not a pressing issue.
Fiddling with lists trying to determine if two ISDs are a thing I can be comfortable with fielding tactically.
2 ISDs do have a simple pattern you can use to get used to the pizza of death - use one as bait (your opponent will be focusing fire to take down one, then the other) and have the other come in almost as a flank. Let your opponent think they're taking the ideal strategy and have them fall right into your trap. Little flavor of both offense and defense.
Are you seriously putting a 8 point upgrade on a 40 some point ship with low survivability?
You need to read this man.
A fair point. Could drop the intel officer and make the point bid viable. It just fit into an idea I was pondering.
ah-ha!
Ozzel can get four ships, 4 interceptors while riding in style at the helm of a swanky ISD-2 (gunnery, ecm, HTT) and sporting a hefty 8 point bid
small problem is the 3 other ships are just 2 GSDs (Experts + APT, one Demolisher ofc) and a Raider (experts)
I wish we had more **** rebel players so I could gauge how scared I'm supposed to be of Akbar
Edited by ficklegreendiceYou should heavily respect the squid.
This has been a most tought provoking thread. Btw, I got three ISD right off the bat, because of course I did.
We shall see, I've got some games coming up.
I fixed my ISD problem...
I finally got mine in the mail. About friggin time! Hopefully my pal sees the remainder of our shipment soon. That and a trip to the FLGS (who's expecting his delivery tomorrow) will put us at 2 of everything.
I'm leaning towards running one, but I could see a dual list, especially if future releases include smaller ships between Raider and Gladiator size/costs.
I have never been one for use of black dice, so ISD-2 is what I prefer. In the games I have run, I usually have it pretty tricked out. Around 180-185 points or so, SW-7 Ion batteries are amazing with Avenger and I never leave port without the Engineering Captain. That card has saved my bacon in both games I played with it. I also find that Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are just as good if not better than Xi-7's. Though, I have been tempted to try XX-9's with Avenger and I never run my ship without significant FIGHTER protection. It drives me nuts watching all these Imperial players running with zero, or to few Squadrons. IMO zero fighters might have worked out ok in wave-1, but in wave-2 it's fighter screen or you die. I'v also been running my ISD with Redundant shield, but want to see if ECM would be a better choice.
Redundant shield is a trap upgrade. I don't see why a savy player would take it.
When you consider the alternatives: Enh Projectors may not mitigate damage but it can maximize effective shields in a well-supported ISD (in other words if you make sure it wont get flanked or surrounded you only need shields from 1 or 2 arcs) and work well with 2 redirects, ECM is probably much better as well as it can ensure you actually get to use defense tokens (a locked down brace across 3 rounds of battle can cost you a LOT of damage) while redundant shileds' maximum contribution will only ever be 5 shields (if that), at 1 per round but you never take damage on round 1. 5 damage vs the other 2 options seems like a no brainer to me.
Redundant shields sync very well with the CR90 - anything that keeps them alive longer to harass is golden in my book.
Are you seriously putting a 8 point upgrade on a 40 some point ship with low survivability?
You need to read this man.
All depends on how you fly 'em. "Low survivability" just means you shouldn't be fighting fair. Love it when an opponent rages over a CR90 or two they thought they could ignore because they're weak. The big worry for me with that list is Raiders. Haven't played against them but looking forward to it.
Haven't played Wave II much yet, but so far I've been running one ISD I, Demolisher with Ordnance Experts, and two Raider Is with Ordnance Experts as the core of my fleet. With Motti, that's four ships and exactly 100 points left (which I usually fill with four TIE Bombers and eight TIE fighters). Lots of hull, lots of speed, lots of black dice, and Demolisher. In a perfect world, I'd have Leading Shots on the ISD I for potential rerolls on all four ships, but oh well. 
Alternatively, dropping two TIEs leaves room for Vader and another four point upgrade on the ISD I (Leading Shots or Boosted Comms?), and still leaves 10 squadrons to pair with the four ships.
Bottom-line, taking an ISD doesn't automatically preclude lots of squadrons or awesome ships like Demolisher. Decking it out will, though... so I prefer them lean. 
Requires taking a few Raiders if you want high squadron counts, but that's fine with me, I love that little ship.
I really want to try the ISD II at some point, but am having a hard time list building with it. Base cost of 120, plus another 14 for ECMs and Gunnery Team, and that's the same points as an ISD I with Motti on it already. I know it's really survivable and all, but yipes, all those credits...
Isd-I all day.
Black dice best dice.
Nope ISD 2 with avenger title and overload pulse. Shuts down tokens second ISD finishs it off
I want three. With Motti.
I've been thinking the same thing. 3 ships, each with 14 hull.
Nope ISD 2 with avenger title and overload pulse. Shuts down tokens second ISD finishs it off
It's difficult to say for certain as your wording is a little unclear, but you are aware that the Overload Pulse triggers after the defender can spend defense tokens, right? So putting the Overload Pulse on the Avenger is generally not that useful.
If you're taking Ions on an ISD-II, assuming I had some dice-modifiers in the fleet, I think I'd go with NK-7s as my first choice, SW-7s as my second. Ion cannon batteries if I need to have something but those feel better on lighter harassment ships.
Overload Pulse with Avenger is generally better on ships that activate first to set up the Avenger's attack. I run them on VSDs, but I may switch them to Raiders and take GSDs as Avenger's escorts.
Edited by Norsehound
