In my last two games it was my B Wings who delivered the death blows to my opponents ISD.

Yup, B-wings are devastating. Played Fleet Ambush yesterday and Yavaris + 3 B's murderized my adversary's flagship AF2 on the first activation of the game.

In my last game, I expected Keyan Farlander to deal the killing blow on the flagship ISD.

He rolled 2 blanks.

He rerolled 2 blanks.

That cost me a 0-10 versus a 4-6 loss.

Too bad Rebels don't force choke people who have failed them for the last time.

An evil combo would be

Adar Tallon on any ship with Boosted coms

Yavaris

Keyan Farlander

Jan Ors

And perhaps an X-wing squadron or two

+ any other Ships, Fighter squadron and upgrades you might be able to cram into the list.

1) Wait until one enemy ship has activated and moved into strike range

2) Activate Keyan Farlander with a squadron command from Adar Tallons ship = first attack on target ship, reset Keyan Farlander's activation slide.

3) Activate Keyan Farlander again with Yavaris and make him attack twice= second + third attack on target ship.

The spare squadron activation commands from Tallons ship or Yavaris can guide other squadrons into attack the target ship or move Jan Ors into position, to prevent Keyan getting engaged with enemy squadrons.

If Tallons ship and/or Yavaris has XI7 turbolasers, they can add that to the attack, on the target ship being focused on.

Of cause its very dependant on timing, deployment, initial positioning and moves, by the ships and squadrons involved.

But I bet some of you out there will take great pleasure in getting it just right

When you have 5 speeds what can you do. There are only so many options. You are always limited in games with reality, or in this case fiction, with speed and ease of play.

Given the cost of bwings compared to others i think they should be speed 3

Can use name mc80 to give them speed 4 but you lose a attack. Or place them as far foward as possible

Nah, B-wings are fine. Fluff-wise, they're right where they're supposed to be; It's the rogues and Tie Bombers who are the anomaly*, not the B-wing. Balance-wise, they trade speed and hull-cost ratio for the highest anti-ship efficiency of any fighter, and they're more efficient at attacking squadrons than any other dedicated bomber.

Fluff-wise, weren't B-Wings the same speed as Y-Wings? I know I'm not the only one annoyed that X-wings are as fast as Y-wings.

Can you explain how you hand two tokens a turn?

Via Raymus.

Raymus allows you to Gain a Token without Spending the Dial...

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Then spending the Dial to get the Token

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Interesting, I never though you could gain a second token this way. I thought that it would only apply to the token you automatically gain. But since, as you are activating, you choose in which order the events apply then I guess this is possible.

.

Raymus gives grants the Token when you 'Reveal' a dial. Tantive IV triggers 'before you gain a token'. Reveal, Raymus triggers, you may trigger Tantive, Trigger Chain ends. Now you have the Command dial and you may save or spend it. If you spend it, Tantive trigger window opens, use or not, Trigger Chain ends.

It pretty much my favorite chain...for many reasons.

Can you explain how you hand two tokens a turn?

Via Raymus.

Raymus allows you to Gain a Token without Spending the Dial...

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Then spending the Dial to get the Token

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Interesting, I never though you could gain a second token this way. I thought that it would only apply to the token you automatically gain. But since, as you are activating, you choose in which order the events apply then I guess this is possible.

.

Raymus gives grants the Token when you 'Reveal' a dial. Tantive IV triggers 'before you gain a token'. Reveal, Raymus triggers, you may trigger Tantive, Trigger Chain ends. Now you have the Command dial and you may save or spend it. If you spend it, Tantive trigger window opens, use or not, Trigger Chain ends.

It pretty much my favorite chain...for many reasons.

Can you explain how you hand two tokens a turn?

Via Raymus.

Raymus allows you to Gain a Token without Spending the Dial...

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Then spending the Dial to get the Token

- Token Gained, and Passed on.

Interesting, I never though you could gain a second token this way. I thought that it would only apply to the token you automatically gain. But since, as you are activating, you choose in which order the events apply then I guess this is possible.

.

Raymus gives grants the Token when you 'Reveal' a dial. Tantive IV triggers 'before you gain a token'. Reveal, Raymus triggers, you may trigger Tantive, Trigger Chain ends. Now you have the Command dial and you may save or spend it. If you spend it, Tantive trigger window opens, use or not, Trigger Chain ends.

It pretty much my favorite chain...for many reasons.

It works. With the precedent set by Demolisher and Engine Techs in wave 1 this is a thing.

Yeah, this is the chain. CorrellianCorvette tipped me off to it originally, so not my original work. But at just 49 points, it's a nice little ship for supporting some larger guns.

It only works to its full potential if the CR-90 never spends its own command dial, so that's something you have to plan for. It's also overkill if you have Garm, as you won't be gaining anything on turns 1, 5, and probably 2 (unless you spend a command token in round 1, which is less than efficient unless a ship needs a sudden speed burst to start the game) .

I'm not too sure Raymus + Tantive IV is that good of a combo, and sacrificing an order on a ship (and in the case of the Corvettes, 39 to 44 points of peak efficiency, or even giving the points to the opponent) to give tokens to another ship seems a bit wasted to me. Sure, that extra engineering token might help, but is it worth 39 points for 1 shield on an AFMK2/MC80 ?

I feel Raymus is actually best served to boost up the efficiency of a specific Corvette is only one is run. By keeping the token, you can not only be Ozzel like in your maneuvers, add and reroll a dice (CF is one of the most useful commands on a Vette), double up your squadron activations so you could actually have a Corvette and 2 A-Wings operating alone on a flank (god I should try that), as well as repair a hull which the Corvette is unable to do organically.

Opposedly, I feel Tantive is best served with Leia to work as a reverse Raymus : not only you effectively make any other ship Command 1, but you can also give him the token. And next turn you can choose another ship. It really allows to capitalize on the higher command values of the large ships and take advantage of an opening, much like Leia shooting the grill in the Death Star's prison and allowing the heroes to escape.

I'm not too sure Raymus + Tantive IV is that good of a combo, and sacrificing an order on a ship (and in the case of the Corvettes, 39 to 44 points of peak efficiency, or even giving the points to the opponent) to give tokens to another ship seems a bit wasted to me. Sure, that extra engineering token might help, but is it worth 39 points for 1 shield on an AFMK2/MC80 ?

I feel Raymus is actually best served to boost up the efficiency of a specific Corvette is only one is run. By keeping the token, you can not only be Ozzel like in your maneuvers, add and reroll a dice (CF is one of the most useful commands on a Vette), double up your squadron activations so you could actually have a Corvette and 2 A-Wings operating alone on a flank (god I should try that), as well as repair a hull which the Corvette is unable to do organically.

Opposedly, I feel Tantive is best served with Leia to work as a reverse Raymus : not only you effectively make any other ship Command 1, but you can also give him the token. And next turn you can choose another ship. It really allows to capitalize on the higher command values of the large ships and take advantage of an opening, much like Leia shooting the grill in the Death Star's prison and allowing the heroes to escape.

At the risk of derailing the thread (sorry, op!), I'll just offer a few thoughts on my thinking behind including this combo in this particular list.

Having played with this combo quite a bit recently, I'll be the first to admit there are definitely limitations to the combo. For it to operate at peak efficiency, it does require sacrificing the CR-90's dial each turn (even the first turn ), it means the CR-90 will be hanging towards the rear of your formation (not at the end of a conga line, but behind it) and therefore not contributing much anti-ship fire (unless things go very badly), and it requires a somewhat-tight formation for your ships (distance 1-5). That said, in a Wave II world, ship-to-ship combat with a single Corvette B is a pretty dangerous proposition anyway, unless you do wide flanks and attack only in rounds 5-6 anyway, are exceptionally good at keeping a CR-90 in crowded arcs that don't have gunnery teams, or are otherwise far better at flying them than I am (which isn't a remarkably high bar to cross ). And if a CR-90 isn't engaging in ship-to-ship combat, there aren't that many tokens you want on the CR-90 anyway--perhaps a squadron token for a surprise alpha-strike, and a maneuver token to keep yourself away from the fray and/or get in a more advantageous position for what limited strike you do make.

The advantage is the ability to get tokens (albeit, one kind of token per round) to a pair of ships that will actually use it. In the list I shared above, I could use a squadron token with the CR-90 for a surprise squadron activation, but that same token has significantly more damage potential if used by Yavaris on a well-positioned B-wing. Same with Independence: on turns where I'm using Independence's special ability, it's another +2 speed for another B-wing, or a way to jump an Escort with them when they'd otherwise be trying to catch up, and on turns when I'm activating squadrons for an attack, it means adding a chance at a fifth squadron's damage before my MC-80 lets loose, all of which happens before the enemy ship has a chance to repair, move, activate its own squadrons to attack mine, etc. I can get that fifth squadron's damage later if I activate it in isolation with the CR-90, but there's a chance that it will be less impactful on the battle if it acts in isolation (the target may repair, the target may move, the target may destroy my squadron, my Intel squadron could be destroyed, etc). I could boost either Yavaris or Independence with just Tantive, but Raymus gives me the chance to boost both consistently, and since the list relies on squadron damage to at least soften up ships before they get close to my own, that its inclusion gives me a chance to consistently optimize the strengths of that particular list, I think.

Another advantage is that the combo has the potential to be far more responsive to battlefield conditions than Garm, and potentially more responsive than Tarkin, as well. Garm's round 1 dispersion is more predictive than responsive, and while it has greater potential to set you up well in the early game for the mid-game, you're left to your own devices until the reinforcements come in round 5. Tarkin's dispersion at the beginning of each round is a great ability, but it still requires some element of prediction to know what your ships will need in the upcoming round (or, at the very least, what your key ship or ships will need). Tantive can fill that same role if you activate it first each round, but as long as your ships aren't locked into a defined movement order to avoid collisions, you can activate it anywhere you want in your ship order. If you know you'll need squadron tokens on Yavaris and Independence (round 2/3), queue them up first, move your protected CR-90 to force the enemy to move closer, and you're set. If you're approaching late-game, have lost some squadrons, and think you might need an engineering token to keep up shields but aren't sure, you can wait an activation or two to see how things unfold, then disperse what you know you'll need towards the end of the round.

A third advantage is that the combo is entirely optional. If you want to pull a mini-Ozzel on Tantive, you can. It's not a terribly efficient use of the Raymus/Tantive combo if you do this every round, but situationally, you can do it whenever the need is dire. Again, another reason why the combo has the potential to be more responsive to battlefield conditions than any other token combo currently in the game.

Whether this sort of flexibility is worth 49 points (and the other trade-offs) is up to you, of course. For this particular list, where I know I want as many squadron activations as possible early-on, but may not want that many squadron tokens later in the game (when, you know, tend to have died), it's a good way to switch gears later. Leia is another good choice for switching commands, although for this particular list, she has less utility, I feel. I'm basically going to squadron-command Yavaris until it is destroyed, so Leia's primary benefit is to make the Independence more responsive. That's a definite benefit in the late game, but less useful in the early game (when, again, I'm going to be primarily focused on squadron commands). There's no question this list is a bit of a one-trick pony (with all those points invested in squadrons, and particularly B-wings, it kind of needs to be to justify the points allocations), for a more all-comers list that supports various playstyles but has high-command ships, Leia is probably the better call.

Interesting response, especially conidering the poitns about buffing the ships that will maximize the tokens due to their upgrade cards !

It's probably a question of playstyle, as I like my Rebels to spread out the threat rather than concentrate it (as in activating 3 squadrons with Yavaris) because I find that I become too predictable and too avoidable (if Yavaris can consistently activate 3 squadrons, the opposing player will probably take that into account and maneuver even more out of the way, which has tactical value in itself just not necessarily my playstyle ).

I didn't say that it was a bad combo at all, but I wasn't sure about its utility

Learning to play Star Wars Armada kind of happens in phases of understanding and as such certain units because they require a higher level of understanding of the game, appear useless to the less experienced.

Its a common thing in games that are simultaneously complex, dynamic and customizable like Star Wars Armada.

Suffice to say I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination and I too felt that B-Wings are completely and utterly useless until that moment when I faced a B-Wing driven list and realized that they just might be the single best and most cost effective unit in the entire game. Funny how they went from useless to the best in a single game.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make here is that the best way to learn how to use any unit in the game squadron or otherwise is to find someone who has figured it out and play against it.

I think part of the problem which I think a lot of gamers have is finding a variety of opponents. Its quite common for miniature gamers to play the same person or small group of people repeatedly and in a way you kind of develop a homebrewed version of a meta. It isn't until your exposed to opponents with a wide variety of experiences they bring to the table outside of your own groups that you realize just how deep and complex a game like Star Wars Armada is.

If your having trouble understanding the benefit or strength of B-wings or any other unit for that matter, experimentation on your own might not be enough. Its really important to find new and unique opponents with different styles and approaches to the game. That's really how to learn to play this game really well.

But for the record, B-Wings are ridiculously good, almost to the point of broken once you learn how to use them properly.

I'm working on a list using YT-1300's to escort B's. Right now I only have 2 Rogue pacs so it's 4 B's, 2 YT-1300, 2 X's and Jan Ors. I plan to keep them in tight with a MC80 Assault and a AF2 with Flight controllers. I really hope this works. Trying to make the B work for me is getting frustrating, but I can't leave it alone

Try this:

This has 10 pts to spare (going 1st is kind of a big deal here). Or you can add in some more mods.

[ REBEL FLEET (390 points)

1 • Objectives (0)

2 • MC80 Command Cruiser - Garm Bel Iblis - Adar Tallon - Boosted Comms - Electronic Countermeasures - Independence (160)

3 • Nebulon-B Escort Frigate - Yavaris (62)

4 • Nebulon-B Support Refit - Salvation (58)

5 • Wedge Antilles X-wing Squadron (19)

6 • ''Dutch'' Vander Y-wing Squadron (16)

7 • Jan Ors Moldy Crow (19)

8 • B-wing Squadron (14)

9 • B-wing Squadron (14)

10 • B-wing Squadron (14)

11 • B-wing Squadron (14)

http://armada.fabpsb.net/permalink.php?sq=r0r19c5o9g3d1f19r3f9r4f8r14r15r24r11r11r11r11 ]

Edit: This is Truthiness' very cool Bwing madness fleet. Played against it, learned to appreciate it.

I have used this fleet but with Salvation dropped for Raymus on the Yavaris and Garm replaced by Dodonna to get XI7 on the Independence.

It is a little tricky to use but the B-wings really shine if you can get the positioning right. Independence ability is only used once but is so useful when fighting broadside rebel fleets, against imperials who like to plough straight on it is less important.

The ability to use Yavaris to double tap with B-wings against ships or double tap with the 3 character fighters if a big dogfight ensues is powerful.

I also tried using 3 B-wings, Dutch and Wedge in a fleet of 4 support Nebs + Yavaris.

I'm working on a list using YT-1300's to escort B's. Right now I only have 2 Rogue pacs so it's 4 B's, 2 YT-1300, 2 X's and Jan Ors. I plan to keep them in tight with a MC80 Assault and a AF2 with Flight controllers. I really hope this works. Trying to make the B work for me is getting frustrating, but I can't leave it alone

Play it defensively, if the enemy gets in close, jump on them. The fact that it lacks speed to go after small targets makes me not favour the B-Wings except in that specific defense role. Independence helps to force activations for the next turn against small ships if you stay within Boosted Comms range when you have your fleet capable of suckerpunching another ship if it doesn't activate. "Oh, you're sure you don't want to activate that CR90 ?".

I think Speed 3 is a minimum when searching for an offensive fighter force.