I have been furiously list building since wave 2 is due to land any moment in UK stores, and I have been trying to get the best out of Vader. However, it seems that there are now a bunch of cheap upgrades that effectively make him pretty redundant, especially when you have to use a defence token to benefit from his ability:

- Leading shots: use on the ISD or Vic-II to reroll shots at medium range, at the cost of 1 blue die

- Ordnance experts: use on the Vic-I or GSD to reroll black dice at no cost

If using these upgrades you can then take a cheaper admiral for another ability. So his main benefit is at long range, which is exactly where Imperials don't want to be. Is Vader a redundant choice for a fleet admiral?

I feel that Vader is best used if you are running a ISD-1 and the Devastator title, rolling a crazy number of dice after burning away tokens, with that vader ability is so good. Otherwise, I would just take vader as a fighter pilot and use leading shots for ISD-2's. But that's just me.

My brother put together a list with Raider spam and an ISD (no squadrons, since he has 5 2-dice ships).

Seems to work well with that imo. ISD has contain (or evade with that one crew) and, often, an extra redirect. The raiders, once in black dice range, aren't often using those evades. Theres 6 ships total, so lots of mileage on Vader in this case.

Vader also frees up those upgrade slots you just listed. By the time he's replaced about 3 of those upgrades he starts coming out ahead in terms of points.

I'll second Bitharne's point as well. Using my glads they hardly ever get much mileage out of their evades since they get to close range so quickly and tend to stay there. In about a third of my games I would burn the evade while still at long range on the approach simply because I wouldn't be using it later

It is possible. Vader sort of has some overlap with Screed - in that they both help you improve a bad attack roll. Because of this, it seems the Rebels have an advantage in terms of commanders.

Vader is awfully nice though. I don't think he's best at long range. I think he's best at close range. Any of your ships that have evade tokens, now will no longer need them. The Evade tokens now have a purpose, where they wouldn't have otherwise. Also you are rolling more dice at close range.

Gladiators love this. So do Raiders. So does an ISD With Captain Needa, or any ISD rather, because having 4 tokens gives you a ton of options. And the Devastator title also has synergy here as well.

Vader gives you consistency and that is an awfully nice thing to have. He is probably the best overall Imperial commander right now.

It is possible. Vader sort of has some overlap with Screed - in that they both help you improve a bad attack roll. Because of this, it seems the Rebels have an advantage in terms of commanders.

Vader is awfully nice though. I don't think he's best at long range. I think he's best at close range. Any of your ships that have evade tokens, now will no longer need them. The Evade tokens now have a purpose, where they wouldn't have otherwise. Also you are rolling more dice at close range.

Gladiators love this. So do Raiders. So does an ISD With Captain Needa, or any ISD rather, because having 4 tokens gives you a ton of options. And the Devastator title also has synergy here as well.

Vader gives you consistency and that is an awfully nice thing to have. He is probably the best overall Imperial commander right now.

I'm not so certain, motti took a big jump up from what I've seen. 14 hull on an isd is so incredibly hard to get through.

Wish we had a bit more variety in our admirals. I really hate having to spend 25 points or so on the cheapest admiral. As for Vader specifically, I'd never take him. Imho Tarkin is far more useful to have if you are spending that much on an Admiral. And if you don't want to spend so much Motti or Screed are both very good depending on your fleet build for 10 or so points less.

Don't think of it as redundancy, think of it as an alternative. Redundancy would be if Vader happened to be another Ion cannon upgrade that performed slightly differently than leading shots (Re-roll all blue dice for instance).

Having several cards that do more or less the same thing across different upgrade categories gives you flexibility when building your list. For example, if you have a number of ships with no Ion upgrade slots and want to equip gunnery teams on everything instead of OE's (like GSDs with Gunnery teams for instance) you turn to Vader. You still get those re-rolls without having access to (or being forced to fill) those upgrade slots.

Vader is to Red Dice what Screed is to Black Dice. Consider - there is currently no way to reroll Long Range attacks without a Concentrate Fire token. What is the worst dice for getting a result you want? Red dice. Vader can lay on the hurt at long range, burning tokens you know you won't need for defense, to help keep up with the Rebel's long range advantage. Then he can still help with the other dice as well once you close the distance.

Vader is especially useful as 2nd player, even better when you have more ships than your opponent. You can safely use Vader on a ship thats already been fired at or with your remaining ship activations. Might as well spend those tokens when they are about to refresh! right?

So, I think the key here is to underbid with a vader list to ensure you're second player. Don't worry, your Star Destroyers can take it.

It is possible. Vader sort of has some overlap with Screed - in that they both help you improve a bad attack roll. Because of this, it seems the Rebels have an advantage in terms of commanders.

Vader is awfully nice though. I don't think he's best at long range. I think he's best at close range. Any of your ships that have evade tokens, now will no longer need them. The Evade tokens now have a purpose, where they wouldn't have otherwise. Also you are rolling more dice at close range.

Gladiators love this. So do Raiders. So does an ISD With Captain Needa, or any ISD rather, because having 4 tokens gives you a ton of options. And the Devastator title also has synergy here as well.

Vader gives you consistency and that is an awfully nice thing to have. He is probably the best overall Imperial commander right now.

I'm not so certain, motti took a big jump up from what I've seen. 14 hull on an isd is so incredibly hard to get through.

Well sure Motti can be nice, no doubt. But overall? Suppose you are going with Gladiators and Raiders? Vader is going to have a lot more appeal for a huge variety of lists than Motti.

as already mentioned, you're paying points and slots for those upgrades that Vader wouldn't touch

not to mention, both are far more situational, given they only trigger at certain ranges and come with additional costs (medium for leading and it noms a die, only black dice for ordnance expert)

Vader's big deal is the ISD, with its highly situational Contain token + truck-load of dice. Anything that hurls lots of dice and has situational defense tokens (such as the GSD/Raider Evade, which becomes useless at close range) can really benefit from the big guy

- Leading shots: use on the ISD or Vic-II to reroll shots at medium range, at the cost of 1 blue die

Exactly. At the cost of one blue die.

Now imagine you can spend a token to re-roll your dice, decide if you like them, THEN spend a blank die to re-roll any other blanks you might have re-rolled. You're buying near mathematical certainty of dealing damage. How is that not worthwhile?

- Ordnance experts: use on the Vic-I or GSD to reroll black dice at no cost

So, you spend a token to re-roll EVERYTHING that isn't a hit-crit, then re-roll any blanks for free. Again, what ISN'T GOOD about a double re-roll? This maximizes your dice and ensures you get the most benefit out of your ship placement.

I don't understand the assertion that Vader loves long range dice... Vader loves ALL dice. The more, the better.

Vader is all about putting as many dice on the field being rolled and re-rolled as possible to maximize potential damage output.

Try running a Raider-I with Exp. Launchers and Ordnance Experts in a Vader list sometime. He can swoop wide, turn sharp, dive into a rear arc, and unload five black and two blue.

So use vader to re-roll everything you don't love, good chance of scoring a double accuracy with the blue, then Ord experts to re-roll any black that came up blank on the re-roll. This combo reliably puts out 5-8 damage with at least one accuracy off a 60 pt ship.

Oh, and Ordnance Experts doubles to re-roll ALL of the Raider's anti-squadron dice, making it both deadly to ships and a terror to squadrons. (You can even spend a token to vader an anti-squadron shot if your luck is terrible and you NEED to kill that squadron.)

Vader all but guarantees that your big hits hurt... BADLY.

re-rolls in this game are never redundant because you can always re-roll a re-roll if you want to.

Yeah, double re-rolls can yield some scarily consistent results. Don't underestimate them.

I'm curious to see if Vader+Swiss Ion Cannons will be a thing. Re-roll your hit results without fear!

I have been furiously list building since wave 2 is due to land any moment in UK stores, and I have been trying to get the best out of Vader. However, it seems that there are now a bunch of cheap upgrades that effectively make him pretty redundant, especially when you have to use a defence token to benefit from his ability:

- Leading shots: use on the ISD or Vic-II to reroll shots at medium range, at the cost of 1 blue die

- Ordnance experts: use on the Vic-I or GSD to reroll black dice at no cost

If using these upgrades you can then take a cheaper admiral for another ability. So his main benefit is at long range, which is exactly where Imperials don't want to be. Is Vader a redundant choice for a fleet admiral?

Darth Vader costs exactly 12 points more than Screed and does not take an upgrade spot, nor does he require you to sacrifice a die (or even a defense token) to reroll. After you take 3 ships he has made his points back. If he only benefits 2 ships but frees up slots for more important upgrades, this may also be more useful.

This is giving me new and devilish ideas about our friendly neighborhood Sith Lord.

Yeah, double re-rolls can yield some scarily consistent results. Don't underestimate them.

I'm curious to see if Vader+Swiss Ion Cannons will be a thing. Re-roll your hit results without fear!

And I can't stop chuckling at that.

I don't even know why.

Anything can be redundant until someone wins a store champ or nationals with it and then it becomes that dirty word META

This is giving me new and devilish ideas about our friendly neighborhood Sith Lord.

Yeah, double re-rolls can yield some scarily consistent results. Don't underestimate them.

I'm curious to see if Vader+Swiss Ion Cannons will be a thing. Re-roll your hit results without fear!

And I can't stop chuckling at that.

I don't even know why.

I'm surprised it's not already a thing, to be honest. SW-7 gives us "Swi-," and given Swiss watches' reputation for dependability, it seems perfect.

I agree on the points above in the case for Vader, particularly on red dice and large numbers of ships. The more dice being thrown, the better choice Vader becomes. Similarly there are sometimes good oppprtunities to trade-off a defence token for more offence.

However, y'all are forgetting the cheapest new Imperial admiral on the block: Ozzel. Consider this trade-off against Vader:

Ozzel - change speed by two: 20 pts

Leading shots on ISD-II: 4 pts

Ordnance experts on GSDs/raiders: say 2 x 5 pts

Total = 34 pts

For the same cost as Vader roughly, I can get most of the benefit (rerolls), and change speed by 2 on my fleet (only not useful for the VSD). Same for Motti but with extra hull. I think Screed works best for crit effect lists rather than volume of dice, personally.

Or maybe I am being clumsy and stupid in driving my ISD so fast at the enemy!

That and Ozzel does very, very little for the humble Victory Star Destroyer... Instead, he specialises on the New Hawtness only.

That and Ozzel does very, very little for the humble Victory Star Destroyer... Instead, he specialises on the New Hawtness only.

I've been trying to think of a situation in which dropping to speed zero then ramping up to speed two could be useful.

I was curious, and happened to have Excel open anyway, so I mathed it.

The verdict: a reroll mechanic gives you the most value if the odds on that individual roll are 50%. The second reroll gets significantly less valuable as the odds increase.

That and Ozzel does very, very little for the humble Victory Star Destroyer... Instead, he specialises on the New Hawtness only.

I've been trying to think of a situation in which dropping to speed zero then ramping up to speed two could be useful.

I have had opportunity to use stop maneuvers forcing opponents to move in range of Vsd then getting the first shot on the now in range ship.

That and Ozzel does very, very little for the humble Victory Star Destroyer... Instead, he specialises on the New Hawtness only.

I've been trying to think of a situation in which dropping to speed zero then ramping up to speed two could be useful.

It certainly has its moments but on the whole I believe them to be pretty rare. Dropping an ISD to speed 1 from 3 is better but still not great (the sweet spot seems to be speed 2, generally starting at 3 to close and then rarely dropping to 1 as situations require). At the moment, Ozzel seems best with Raiders and Gladiators, which are both ships that love dropping 2 speed on a crucial turn but might require a burst to catch up here and there, making him useful for both accelerating and decelerating.