Okay, here's the situation: stage 1B of Battle of Carn Dum, Thaurdir (Captain) sitting in the staging area with 2 facedown shadow cards chilling on him.

In the combat phase, I take an attack from another enemy with this shadow effect: "Flip Thaurdir after this attack."

So I flip Thaurdir to his Champion side, which reads:

Forced : After Thaurdir is flipped... , Thaurdir heals 3 damage and makes an immediate attack against the first player.

I deal Thaurdir another shadow card for this attack, giving him 3 total, and then... I stop.

Because stage 1B says:

Forced : If there are 3 shadow cards dealt to Thaurdir, flip him.

This being a forced effect, I should resolve it immediately, yes? But then Champion Thaurdir is no longer in play... so does the attack I was about to resolve still happen?

Also, having flipped him again, Captain Thaurdir's Forced effect should trigger, dealing 1 shadow card to every enemy in play, including Thaurdir himself. If I haven't resolved Champion Thaurdir's attack yet (if I should at all), this gives him 4 shadow cards. As harkened in another active thread, does him having *4* shadow cards re-trigger stage 1B's Forced effect (despite 4!=3)?

I suppose if it does re-trigger, I'd have to flip Thaurdir back to Champion and trigger his Forced effect, which would give him an immediate attack. Is this a SECOND immediate attack? Even if it's just the first, don't I have to deal him another shadow card (now 5!), which may then re-re-trigger stage 1B's flipping effect? How many flips before I flip the table? And if flipping the table flips Thaurdir, how many shadow cards should I deal him? [Please ignore the last two sentences.]

ohhhhh man, yeah Thaurdir's Forced effect is pretty wonky. I think the way you suggest playing it is correct, although I do think each of the immediate attacks would continue to be resolved (he is still Thaurdir, and keep damage tokens etc when you flip him-- flipping him wouldn't cancel the attack). So if you get multiple immediate attacks, they would queue up.

Now I hope that his Response should read: "When Thaurdir is dealt a third shadow card, flip him." This would prevent all the re-flipping confusion, because it would only trigger when card number 3 lands on him (and not number 4, 5, 6) etc.

I'll send in an official rules question so we can stop flipping out over all this flipping over.

I got this succinct response today:

"You should only flip Thaurdir if he has exactly 3 shadow cards on him.

Cheers,
Caleb"

My wordy question is below:

Hi, I have a question about the Forced effect on stage 1b of The Battle of Carn Dum: it says "Forced: If there are 3 shadow cards dealt to Thaurdir, flip him." Wondering which this should read like: (A) "After Thaurdir is dealt a shadow card, if he has at least 3 shadow cards dealt to him, flip him" or (B) "After Thaurdir is dealt a shadow card, if he has exactly 3 shadow cards dealt to him, flip him." If it's (A), we had a couple of situations on the forums recently where Thaurdir can flip repeatedly. Going into the combat phase, he is on his Captain side and has 2 shadow cards. Then one other enemy's attack causes Thaurdir to be flipped. Thaurdir flips to his Champion side, causing an immediate attack per the Champion's Forced effect. He is dealt 1 shadow card to initiate the attack. Now Thaurdir has 3 cards, so he flips again before the attack is resolved. He is Captain side up now, so his Forced effect deals a shadow card to every enemy in play. Thaurdir just got another card, so now he has 4 and, if (A) above it he correct interpretation, he will flip again and queue up a 2nd immediate attack, which will deal him another shadow card to begin that attack (and some of these shadow cards could flip him again, and so on). SO.... we're flipping out! Thanks for your help as always!!

Welp, he certainly answered the question!

I generally agree, by the way, that Champion Thaurdir's attack should finish even if he's flipped before it has completed resolving. I still have this vague feeling that the whole flipping business is a little tricky to reconcile with various issues with text on out-of-play cards, but I guess it's clear enough in this particular case.

It seems to be that if the card has the same title after you flip it, it is not considered to have left play. At least, that's the feeling I get.

It is the same Card after all and it never left the staging area