Thanks for reading everyone.

In regards to a "budget" named Defender, I actually think I'd go Ion Cannon over Mangler, at least on Rexler. The control aspect is really useful, and potentially lets you set up some good attacks later. Consequently, I'd try really hard to get one in that squad you posted, Hungry FFG. Downgrade one Black Squadron to an Academy and you free up 3 points. That gives you and Ion Cannon and a great blocker to mess with enemy formations. TIE Fighters punch really hard up close for their points, and the Ion Cannon really supports getting your TIE Fighters at range 1. There's a strong argument to keep it as is, though.

Got a couple more games in with this list. I'm not sure why, having played Predator Brath before, I'm still consistently surprised how quickly he burns down 1 agility ships, almost to the point of feeling unfair against PS2 ships

Two of the games I played against an R3A2 Y-Wing where I basically went right at it with everything, the FOs in fast and Brath behind. They hammered away at it and then I K-turned Brath (while stressed) behind the formation and finished it off while the FOs went after another target.

In combination with the FOs, it's 19 health behind three agility and it's proving far more resilient than even I thought it would be. I also continue to be impressed with the FOs dial. Having played TIE/ln quite a bit, I still put down the focus too quickly when I should have TL.

Been loving the info in this post so far. I had such a great time running Rex+Vessery (and doing well) that I'm iching to try some variations on elite Defenders. I think I'll have to give the Rex+ 3 FOs a go since I don't get to run very many of the sleek white Ties.

I was also thinking about the draw-backs of running Vessery+VI instead of Rex+pred. But I was wondering if dropping 3 FOs and switching to 2 beefier Tie Adv would work. I was thinking about something like Vessery+HLC+VI+Hull, Maarik+ATC+PTL+mkII+X1, and a AC Tempest. The idea is Maarik is probably putting up (and keeping up) TL on whatever Vessery wants to shoot anyway, and the mega PS8->PS7 punch would knock a lot of stuff out, especially with Maarik's ability. Plus the Tempest doesn't mind throwing away an action on TL every once in a while, esp if he is trying to block. You also get two high priority targets, which means that Maarik will take quite a bit of heat off Vessery. Trouble is you have a 1pt init bid (not great), lose blocking potential, and overall trade 3 shots and 12HP for 2 shots [good] shots and 10 HP.

Biophysical, have you messed around with Tie Adv much with your squad?

I just finished a couple games with a delta defender + hlc alongside vader and I gotta say I really enjoyed the delta. In fact it was probably better pt for pt than the named pilots. Tie advanced have great synergy with vess IMO and defenders in general but if your area is ok with proxying spoiled/unreleased cards add thread tracers to your advanced, they're great.

Sadly, I haven't tried TIE/adv at all. I don't get to play as much as I'd like, so I have to be a little careful about buying stuff I might not use. I don't get to use a lot of the stuff I already own, so dropping the cash on the Raider hasn't been in the cards yet.

I have no real reasons to think that the x1s wouldn't work, but can't add much more. That being said, I think those AC x1s have the same big advantage that FOs and Defenders have: Duty Cycle. In their own ways Defenders and FOs are great at keeping guns on target turn after turn. AC x1s can do the same thing, because their offense is so action independent. This also makes them good spotters for Vessery.

Greatest topic ever. More love for Tie Defender is always welcome.

Just in case you're interested, search "Biophysical" and "TIE Defender" on these forums and you're likely to come across a number of long-winded discussions regarding this ship.

Sadly, I haven't tried TIE/adv at all. I don't get to play as much as I'd like, so I have to be a little careful about buying stuff I might not use. I don't get to use a lot of the stuff I already own, so dropping the cash on the Raider hasn't been in the cards yet.

I have no real reasons to think that the x1s wouldn't work, but can't add much more. That being said, I think those AC x1s have the same big advantage that FOs and Defenders have: Duty Cycle. In their own ways Defenders and FOs are great at keeping guns on target turn after turn. AC x1s can do the same thing, because their offense is so action independent. This also makes them good spotters for Vessery.

I like the TIE Advanced with the X1 (and have flown it a bunch), but with the generics I'm seeing a pretty big advantage in the FOs. It's not a big enough step up in durability or attack power (even with AC) and the dial is a lot worse, especially for keeping you in the fight compared to the FOs for the overall cost of a ship in the squad, though I guess you could get one advanced, a TIE FO, and a TIE Fighter, but that ends up being an overall loss of PS for pretty much the same durability.

Yeah, the FOs are threading a pretty interesting needle of "pretty tough for the points" combined with "not so expensive for 2 attack dice that it's junk". Throw in the second or third best small ship dial in the game, and you've got a winner at certain points breakdowns. I legitimately think FOs are a pretty excellent stand-in for a single 30ish point ace. They are way tougher than most single aces, provide reasonable firepower, and are good blockers. Defenders aside, I think you could do pretty well with Ace/Ace/FO/FO for a nice high/low Imperial 4 ship build. You can be aggressive with the FOs because they're tough, and the other player doesn't really want to shoot at them when there's rougher stuff still on the table, so you either get to get good close range shots, or you get a tough, cheap ship targeted over a pricier ship. Despite its price increase over a TIE/ln, though, it's still totally expendable.

Standard Fel 35

Vader, Predator, ATC 33 or Carnor Jax, VI, AT, Hull = 32

Zeta 16

Zeta 16

I took the Brathx3 Zetas to a 20 player tourney and managed to go 3-1. Here's the quick version.

R1 vs. Art w/ Chewie w/two Wardens.Won 100-16. No real notes here as I think this was basically an ideal matchup for the list.

R2 vs. Mike w/Kath and Col. Vessery. Won 100-0. PS of Brath over Vessery was the key here.

R3 vs. Eric wIGB and Boba. Lost 50-100. This could have been closer but I both put Brath in a bad spot and then was badly punished for it as Boba killed him in 8/8 hits. I only evaded two but a direct hit got through to finish him off by R3 and having fired one shot. Boba had VI and it probably led me into some of those mistakes. The FOs actually made a game of it, getting half points for both ships before dying and I'd like to rerun this one with better play on my party.

R4 vs Brad wNdru, 2 PS 4 tLTs, 1PS 2 TLT. Won 100-50. I shouldn't have won this one in a lot of different ways. I don't want to go into the detail required for this crazy game but I'll just say that in the endgame a two hull Brath finished off Ndru and 2 Ys on his own but was only able to do so because my opponent, through unfortunate circumstance, had been using the old crit deck and pulled a munitions failure crit on his last TLT. This list was a tough matchup for the Zetas since they only shot before one ship and, as I've always thought, Agromechs are better on TLTs than unhinged --no question.

I ended up third. Maybe some more observations tomorrow if I have the chance...

So today I took Rex and 3 Omegas for a spin on a local tourney. Lost all 3 battkes . Hsd a blast though. That 1 sheild on FO is a game changer.

Best moment was Rex changing 4 hits into crits on a poor ywing. Must practice more, since my poor flying and even worse memory were reason of the losses.

Best moment was Rex changing 4 hits into crits on a poor ywing.

Its moments like that where Rexs cost feels just about right.

So, I'm wondering once Imp Vets are out, should Rex's HLC always get switched out for Tie/D+ion (or maybe flechette). If only for the cheaper cost, and comparable damage (with pred) along with some control. Then, if you free up 4 points, what do you add to in this list?

So, I'm wondering once Imp Vets are out, should Rex's HLC always get switched out for Tie/D+ion (or maybe flechette). If only for the cheaper cost, and comparable damage (with pred) along with some control. Then, if you free up 4 points, what do you add to in this list?

I was wondering about this, too. I'm curious to know what the damage output of the TIE D with Ion is and the fact that, even with predator, you're more likely to spend and end up without that focus for defense. I also wonder which is more likely to damage a ship like Fel or even Poe.

With those points, I'd probably run Zeta Leader and maybe add in VI. He's a ship I'm really liking the look of right now. Comm w/VI relay makes him a 24 point PS 9, 3 attack, 3 agility ship, but in this list I couldn't find the points for that.

I will run Ion Canons on generics, as I find the control useful, but like Bio, will only run HLCs on either named pilot. Their abilites both get more benefit the more dice rolled. I would want a pilot like Maarek in a Defender befor I equipped Mangler Canons. That said, if you are short on points, the Mangler will at least prevent bonus green dice at range three, and crits can win games. I just do not think it synergizes best with the name pilots.

Prescience, you have experienced. Insight you have. Welcome are you to any discussion as forward we go.

So, I'm wondering once Imp Vets are out, should Rex's HLC always get switched out for Tie/D+ion (or maybe flechette). If only for the cheaper cost, and comparable damage (with pred) along with some control. Then, if you free up 4 points, what do you add to in this list?

Yes, always. I can't really justify HLC in any way right now. I think I take the 4 points + initiative bid to upgrade Zetas to Omegas with Crack Shot. I'm also considering a named FO in there, though.

So, I'm wondering once Imp Vets are out, should Rex's HLC always get switched out for Tie/D+ion (or maybe flechette). If only for the cheaper cost, and comparable damage (with pred) along with some control. Then, if you free up 4 points, what do you add to in this list?

Yes, always. I can't really justify HLC in any way right now. I think I take the 4 points + initiative bid to upgrade Zetas to Omegas with Crack Shot. I'm also considering a named FO in there, though.

Ya, my immediate thought was similar to try and get some crack shots in there with the FO's, as long as my opponents let me test the title before its officially released. I went all in for that list by repainting a Defender. Need to try it, stat!

I think it's going to be a strong list. Whatever gets zapped by the Ion Cannon will be an easy kill for those Omegas. I think you pick the nastiest target that you can expect to chase down, zap it, and converge. Against support ships that are leftover, the Omegas use their superior PS to effectively dogfight more expensive ships than themselves. Against leftover Aces, Omegas turn into blockers to help Rex land hits.

The nice thing is that it has a fair chance to drop a Y-wing in one turn of firing:

Rex hits with with the Ion Cannon (1 damage)

Rex spends a Focus and does 3 hits with primary weapons, Y-wing spends its Focus to block a damage, 2 go through (3 total damage)

One Omega gets 1 hit, 2 Omegas get 2 hits, no damage blocked by the Y-wing because of Crack Shot (8 total damage)

A lot of stuff has to go right for this to work, but it's not crazy. The Omegas have a lot of chances to land crits as well. Even if you leave it with a point or two of hull left, it is Ioned, so you can task an Omega or the primary weapons on Rex to finish it.

The nice thing is that it has a fair chance to drop a Y-wing in one turn of firing:

Rex hits with with the Ion Cannon (1 damage)

Rex spends a Focus and does 3 hits with primary weapons, Y-wing spends its Focus to block a damage, 2 go through (3 total damage)

One Omega gets 1 hit, 2 Omegas get 2 hits, no damage blocked by the Y-wing because of Crack Shot (8 total damage)

This is how I envision the tractor beam to work. Drop the agility with Rex and hammer away. In this case, if Rex had a tractor beam (and assuming the tractor beam has no additional rules), you can save 2 points on Tractor vs Ion, and then 2 more points on 2 crack shots, but you will be -1 damage from the tractor beam shot. (So you can save 6 points, 2 from cannon, 2 from crack shot and 2 from dropping the pilot skills on 2 ships BUT you have to do 1 more point of damage).

I think it's going to be a strong list. Whatever gets zapped by the Ion Cannon will be an easy kill for those Omegas. I think you pick the nastiest target that you can expect to chase down, zap it, and converge. Against support ships that are leftover, the Omegas use their superior PS to effectively dogfight more expensive ships than themselves. Against leftover Aces, Omegas turn into blockers to help Rex land hits.

The nice thing is that it has a fair chance to drop a Y-wing in one turn of firing:

Rex hits with with the Ion Cannon (1 damage)

Rex spends a Focus and does 3 hits with primary weapons, Y-wing spends its Focus to block a damage, 2 go through (3 total damage)

One Omega gets 1 hit, 2 Omegas get 2 hits, no damage blocked by the Y-wing because of Crack Shot (8 total damage)

A lot of stuff has to go right for this to work, but it's not crazy. The Omegas have a lot of chances to land crits as well. Even if you leave it with a point or two of hull left, it is Ioned, so you can task an Omega or the primary weapons on Rex to finish it.

I'll be interested to see what if that loadout makes it harder to take out certain aces, especially Palpatine-backed,and if HLC isn't stronger in that case despite the clear edge the doubletap has overall. Though, even in the case described above, the HLC might have more damage output since it's 4v1 at R3 as opposed to 3v1 (max 1) and then 3v2.

It's not really better than a single TLT in those terms and I've seen those struggle to do damage against Soontir, among others, where a good shot from an HLC is likely to get something through and/or be likely strip multiple tokens on its own. Even if I'm right, though, I can see the benefits of the double tap in what it gives the rest of the list.

I think it's going to be a strong list. Whatever gets zapped by the Ion Cannon will be an easy kill for those Omegas. I think you pick the nastiest target that you can expect to chase down, zap it, and converge. Against support ships that are leftover, the Omegas use their superior PS to effectively dogfight more expensive ships than themselves. Against leftover Aces, Omegas turn into blockers to help Rex land hits.

The nice thing is that it has a fair chance to drop a Y-wing in one turn of firing:

Rex hits with with the Ion Cannon (1 damage)

Rex spends a Focus and does 3 hits with primary weapons, Y-wing spends its Focus to block a damage, 2 go through (3 total damage)

One Omega gets 1 hit, 2 Omegas get 2 hits, no damage blocked by the Y-wing because of Crack Shot (8 total damage)

A lot of stuff has to go right for this to work, but it's not crazy. The Omegas have a lot of chances to land crits as well. Even if you leave it with a point or two of hull left, it is Ioned, so you can task an Omega or the primary weapons on Rex to finish it.

I'll be interested to see what if that loadout makes it harder to take out certain aces, especially Palpatine-backed,and if HLC isn't stronger in that case despite the clear edge the doubletap has overall. Though, even in the case described above, the HLC might have more damage output since it's 4v1 at R3 as opposed to 3v1 (max 1) and then 3v2.

It's not really better than a single TLT in those terms and I've seen those struggle to do damage against Soontir, among others, where a good shot from an HLC is likely to get something through and/or be likely strip multiple tokens on its own. Even if I'm right, though, I can see the benefits of the double tap in what it gives the rest of the list.

Yeah, but if you back Rex's double shot with 2 - 3 omegas toting crack shot, then Soontir is in real trouble. Tough to get Soontir in the sights of all your ships, but not impossible. For Rex + 3 FO's though, using one for blocking, and failing that, hope to break the stealth with a crack shot, then later Rex has better odds of finishing him off...

I think it's going to be a strong list. Whatever gets zapped by the Ion Cannon will be an easy kill for those Omegas. I think you pick the nastiest target that you can expect to chase down, zap it, and converge. Against support ships that are leftover, the Omegas use their superior PS to effectively dogfight more expensive ships than themselves. Against leftover Aces, Omegas turn into blockers to help Rex land hits.

The nice thing is that it has a fair chance to drop a Y-wing in one turn of firing:

Rex hits with with the Ion Cannon (1 damage)

Rex spends a Focus and does 3 hits with primary weapons, Y-wing spends its Focus to block a damage, 2 go through (3 total damage)

One Omega gets 1 hit, 2 Omegas get 2 hits, no damage blocked by the Y-wing because of Crack Shot (8 total damage)

A lot of stuff has to go right for this to work, but it's not crazy. The Omegas have a lot of chances to land crits as well. Even if you leave it with a point or two of hull left, it is Ioned, so you can task an Omega or the primary weapons on Rex to finish it.

I'll be interested to see what if that loadout makes it harder to take out certain aces, especially Palpatine-backed,and if HLC isn't stronger in that case despite the clear edge the doubletap has overall. Though, even in the case described above, the HLC might have more damage output since it's 4v1 at R3 as opposed to 3v1 (max 1) and then 3v2.

It's not really better than a single TLT in those terms and I've seen those struggle to do damage against Soontir, among others, where a good shot from an HLC is likely to get something through and/or be likely strip multiple tokens on its own. Even if I'm right, though, I can see the benefits of the double tap in what it gives the rest of the list.

Yeah, but if you back Rex's double shot with 2 - 3 omegas toting crack shot, then Soontir is in real trouble. Tough to get Soontir in the sights of all your ships, but not impossible. For Rex + 3 FO's though, using one for blocking, and failing that, hope to break the stealth with a crack shot, then later Rex has better odds of finishing him off...

Blocking is key (Crackshot or not). I've run a CS (Black Tie) swarm quite a bit and had good competitive success with it, but they still struggle against Agility 3 aces. Crackshot is one of my favorite upgrades, but on two dice ships aces can still avoid it (arc dodging or just defense rolls). What I found did them in against my CS swarm was actually the doom shuttle (either by hemming them in or getting a lucky effect) while the CS swarm simply dealt with other aspects of the enemy list. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just that I wonder if the list won't need a more reliable tool to deal with aces when downgrading the HLC.

The HLC is a better shield breaker, and Soontir is about the only one that you really need to be concerned about. I think at Range 2, the extra shot makes it a wash, I think, and even at Range 4, HLC can have trouble. The combo is better than a TLT shot because Predator is involved. Either with IC or HLC, blocking is the preferred tactic.

For non multi-action Autothruster, Stealth Device aces, the dual shot is awfully good, still.

The HLC is a better shield breaker, and Soontir is about the only one that you really need to be concerned about. I think at Range 2, the extra shot makes it a wash, I think, and even at Range 4, HLC can have trouble. The combo is better than a TLT shot because Predator is involved. Either with IC or HLC, blocking is the preferred tactic.

For non multi-action Autothruster, Stealth Device aces, the dual shot is awfully good, still.

Fair points. I guess I'm just partial to the big gun!

The HLC is a better shield breaker, and Soontir is about the only one that you really need to be concerned about. I think at Range 2, the extra shot makes it a wash, I think, and even at Range 4, HLC can have trouble. The combo is better than a TLT shot because Predator is involved. Either with IC or HLC, blocking is the preferred tactic.

For non multi-action Autothruster, Stealth Device aces, the dual shot is awfully good, still.

Fair points. I guess I'm just partial to the big gun!

Well FWIW, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I think HLC probably is slightly better to kill soontir. I'm so excited about this expansion, I've been kind of jumping into every thread remotely related with Defenders so I can blab about Defenders!

I hear that.

I love the HLC Defender with every fiber of my being. The IC is just so incredibly good against non-Soontir targets, and is 4 points cheaper. You know what's sweet, though? That 4 point gap is most of the way toward a Homing Missile. Against Soontir you spend a lot of time chasing. You Target Lock on a turn Fel isn't engaging you, and then take the Focus on turns after like normal. It's not the same as an HLC shot at every opportunity, but it is extremely scary to Fel, even at Range 3. Best of both worlds, practically the same cost.