Here's a question for everyone: would you say the game has more variety of lists and flexibility than X-Wing did at this point in its life? I seem to recall TIE Swarms being the thing and Y-Wings already set as being ion carriers by this time, forcing Ys and TIEX1s into decline. There is no ship in Armada that is perceived as being underpowered by comparison.

I an no X-Wing expert but I think there was more propensity to copy lists because it wasn't a terrible cost. If the best list at GenCon was 6 tie fighters people would easily buy 2-3 more. What if the best list at the next big tournament is 3xISD's for a lot of players that is a pair of ISD's they may not have or MC80's or 8 Corvettes. Add to the mix the idea that one could have 4-6 Firesprays etc and for a lot of players they can't net list, they have to play what they have.

I got Wave 2 on Saturday (was 10% off everything so Yay!) and I'm finding it tricky to get the ISD and to a lesser degree the MC-80 into lists.

They're both great ships, but they're also very expensive with the cheapest ship still being over 100 points, which in a way removes the whole 100 point bump.

...

Not sure how good the ISD/2 VSD list will be, but it looks freaking great on the table.

See in my case, the Imperial is exactly the ship I've been waiting and preparing for as an Imperial player. It is all the capabilities of the VSD expanded into a "modern" fighting ship to compete with (and defeat) all the advantages held by the Rebel side of the game. Ever since winning one at Sullust I've been driving an ISD-II with a pair of VSD-II escorts and win a majority of my games, never losing the Star Destroyer (though frequently sacrificing the VSDs...).

Here's a question for everyone: would you say the game has more variety of lists and flexibility than X-Wing did at this point in its life? I seem to recall TIE Swarms being the thing and Y-Wings already set as being ion carriers by this time, forcing Ys and TIEX1s into decline. There is no ship in Armada that is perceived as being underpowered by comparison.

Neb Bs. Not saying you can't win with them, just saying it is definitely harder. (Salvation excepted.)

I got Wave 2 on Saturday (was 10% off everything so Yay!) and I'm finding it tricky to get the ISD and to a lesser degree the MC-80 into lists.

They're both great ships, but they're also very expensive with the cheapest ship still being over 100 points, which in a way removes the whole 100 point bump.

...

Not sure how good the ISD/2 VSD list will be, but it looks freaking great on the table.

See in my case, the Imperial is exactly the ship I've been waiting and preparing for as an Imperial player. It is all the capabilities of the VSD expanded into a "modern" fighting ship to compete with (and defeat) all the advantages held by the Rebel side of the game. Ever since winning one at Sullust I've been driving an ISD-II with a pair of VSD-II escorts and win a majority of my games, never losing the Star Destroyer (though frequently sacrificing the VSDs...).

Here's a question for everyone: would you say the game has more variety of lists and flexibility than X-Wing did at this point in its life? I seem to recall TIE Swarms being the thing and Y-Wings already set as being ion carriers by this time, forcing Ys and TIEX1s into decline. There is no ship in Armada that is perceived as being underpowered by comparison.

Neb Bs. Not saying you can't win with them, just saying it is definitely harder. (Salvation excepted.)

Nebs aren't underpowered, they're just the trickiest to pull off. Much like B-Wings, they require some practice but WOW when you're facing a Neb list against someone who knows what they're doing - duck and cover.

Critical as I am about Nebulon-Bs I wouldn't call them complete duds either. You can still take them for their offensive capabilities. They're still the best and cheapest AA the rebels have, they have access to great titles, and at worst they can be cheap flying flanking gun platforms with a turbolaser of your choice.

In X-Wing The TIE X1 was practically useless after Wave 1. Turrets and the A-Wing/TIE Interceptor came out, negating the TIE Advanced's tenuous advantage over the X-wing one on one (So I've heard). The Y-Wing was never anything but an ion cannon platform, you never used it for the primary attack value and secondary weapons were not optimal. Their aces weren't used much either if I recall.

This shows that FFG has learned from their experiences in X-Wing and are trying very hard to create ships that do not feel like they make other ships obsolete. GSDs and even VSD-Is still have clear roles they can play with no other competitors, even if they feel like they aren't as optimal as other ships.

I'm having a good time being moderately competitive locally with X Wing with nothing past wave 3/Aces (still don't own a HWK or T/B). I do agree that that game has more swings on what's viable and what's not. Right now Scum ships are the best thing locally.

Armada definitely does not feel like X Wing as far as viable ships. Everything works for someone. And honestly I don't think there are any absolutely worthless things like Proton Torpedoes quite yet. I love this game, but I wish more people locally would play it.

Was this intended to be a 'Forum Firebomb'?

the Neb-B is simply a more difficult ship to use than any other due to the weird arc distribution, but it's easily worth its cost even as a naked Escort. It's a durable, deceptively powerful, and deceptively mobile little bugger.

the trick as I see it is maintain speed 2 and a nav token. You'd be amazed at the burst of maneuverability it can get, and dismayed at how poorly it handles at speed 1 (VSD status). Reduce to speed 1 only in dire circumstances, or if you need a sacrificial lamb

As of Wave 2, I'm having an incredibly difficult time imagining a non-Akbar list forgoing Salvation. It's just incredible for its cost, and as the lethality of the game has jumped with the added 100 points you're going to be scrambling for long range fire more than ever.

also, with the existence of the ISD-2, the value of the Neb's defensive profile has just increased significantly. Without MM, it'll just pop CR-90s without issue (even with MM, you're lucky to be left on 1 hull) whereas the Neb can easily last 2 rounds with their judicious allocation of braces, even if you get hit from the side

Not to say the CR-90 is bad, as the CR-90a with TLRC is probably the best thing since sliced bread, but it's fragility relative to the Neb is made very apparent with the introduction of large ships. The Neb defensive profile provides a solid core while the TLRC Corvette provides a potent flanker

Was this intended to be a 'Forum Firebomb'?

Nah. Sometimes I drop bouquets, too.

Was this intended to be a 'Forum Firebomb'?

Nah. Sometimes I drop bouquets, too.

Big spender ^^

I'm having a good time being moderately competitive locally with X Wing with nothing past wave 3/Aces (still don't own a HWK or T/B). I do agree that that game has more swings on what's viable and what's not. Right now Scum ships are the best thing locally.

Armada definitely does not feel like X Wing as far as viable ships. Everything works for someone. And honestly I don't think there are any absolutely worthless things like Proton Torpedoes quite yet. I love this game, but I wish more people locally would play it.

There's a few cards I can't ever see having use (Cluster Bombs, I'm looking at you) but the ratio of useful (even if only some cases) to "meh" is pretty good for two waves.

I'm having a good time being moderately competitive locally with X Wing with nothing past wave 3/Aces (still don't own a HWK or T/B). I do agree that that game has more swings on what's viable and what's not. Right now Scum ships are the best thing locally.

Armada definitely does not feel like X Wing as far as viable ships. Everything works for someone. And honestly I don't think there are any absolutely worthless things like Proton Torpedoes quite yet. I love this game, but I wish more people locally would play it.

There's a few cards I can't ever see having use (Cluster Bombs, I'm looking at you) but the ratio of useful (even if only some cases) to "meh" is pretty good for two waves.

Yes, a lot of good cards that seem to work really well for certain ships.

let's be frank, there will always be some dud cards

at least in Armada, there's a pattern (the most maligned cards are all Ship-based anti-squadron upgrades, from cluster bombs to point-defense-reroute to that crap counter laser )

Your opponent will always have ships, they won't always have fighters (though that may change with R&V, here's hoping). Anti-fighter cards will always have an uphill battle because of that and none of them have been good enough to justify their points.

pro-fighter cards, on the other hand, are delicious.

the anti-fighter cards are also just ineffective in general

5 points for an upgrade that only works half the time? no freaking thanks

I'm not sure if there are any truly dud upgrade cards either. There are ones that you'll pass up for other upgrades, but I don't think a thing is entirely useless... at least nothing I can think of.

Take cluster bombs for instance. This is a card you trigger off to fire hate confetti at an ace pilot. I don't think it's technically an attack, so Imperial aces can't scatter against it, and it can be up to four damage dealt (Killing any Interceptors or TIEs). Serviceable as it is most players are going to pass it up for ECM/Adv Projectors because they are much more reliable and they have powerful effects.

Dud cards are like X-Wing blaster turrets now that Twin Laser turrets exist, or Proton Torpedoes which has a high cost to take, use, and for little reliability for damage.

the anti-fighter cards are also just ineffective in general

5 points for an upgrade that only works half the time? no freaking thanks

I dunno, I can see myself using point-defense reroute on a future DP20/Lancer ship with high AA capabilities and an offensive slot. Any Raiders running AA duty would find it useful too, since it's a chance to turn a non-result into a hit. Best of all this and Quad Laser Turrets are cheap, and I imagine their effects begin to mount when they are active in battle. It's hard to think of taking them over Tractor Beams for my star destroyer but I like slowly punishing fighters attacking it while also dealing with my TIE Fighters.

I'm not sure if there are any truly dud upgrade cards either. There are ones that you'll pass up for other upgrades, but I don't think a thing is entirely useless... at least nothing I can think of.

Take cluster bombs for instance. This is a card you trigger off to fire hate confetti at an ace pilot. I don't think it's technically an attack, so Imperial aces can't scatter against it, and it can be up to four damage dealt (Killing any Interceptors or TIEs). Serviceable as it is most players are going to pass it up for ECM/Adv Projectors because they are much more reliable and they have powerful effects.

Dud cards are like X-Wing blaster turrets now that Twin Laser turrets exist, or Proton Torpedoes which has a high cost to take, use, and for little reliability for damage.

I'd consider a card dud if most players don't use it. "Up to" four damage means three in my book (CB counts crits). You can hold off until you're firing at something weakened but that's just not going to happen enough to justify the point cost.

- and that won't even kill a TIE solo.

But 3 Damage will kill a TIE fighter, or TIE Interceptor, flat out. Including the Ace derivatives thereof...

- and that won't even kill a TIE solo.

But 3 Damage will kill a TIE fighter, or TIE Interceptor, flat out. Including the Ace derivatives thereof...

Derp on my part, realized before posting that crits counted but didn't re-read the whole post. Edited now, good catch.

Yeah I understand the intent of most cards, what I don't understand is the point cost considering the opportunity cost. In other words "cost" goes waaay deeper than fleet points, and sometimes I don't think that level of thought was applied to the fleet point costing of several upgrades.

Cluster bombs is a great example of this, 5 fleet points for a one-off upgrade of questionable value that occupies the slot of a potentially MUCH higher return for very little additional FP cost upgrade? Bad. Add to that the perspective that the CBs represent 5/8ths of say, an additional tie fighter, it should have the anti-fighter potential of 5/8th of a tie fighter + justify the opportunity cost of that slot. In that regard it is a clear waste.

5 points to have a shot at splashing an annoying A-Wing to double my points investment.

I don't usually use my defensive Retrofit slots anyway - I've not wanted to crutch my play on them.

Playing exclusively with Neb-Bs for the tail end of Wave 1 has opened my eyes to maneouver and placement something fierce.

CBs should be about 2 fleet points. A nasty little barb on a ship where perhaps you didn't have room to add anything else. it is not worth 5/6th of ADV projectors or 5/7th of ECM.

Redundant shields I also struggle with, at 8 points for maybe 5 shields max? ECM will save you that much pain in 2 attacks from a ship with Home One accuracy mod

5 points to have a shot at splashing an annoying A-Wing to double my points investment.

I don't usually use my defensive Retrofit slots anyway - I've not wanted to crutch my play on them.

Playing exclusively with Neb-Bs for the tail end of Wave 1 has opened my eyes to maneouver and placement something fierce.

With respect, its a poor return that synergizes with nothing. As an imperial player the only defensive retrofit I get to use is on the one ISD II I will ever take on a list, and if you want to call it a "crutch" that's your business, I call it a must-have upgrade and it better have maximum return on maximum opportunities, not occasionally good return.

Any Raiders running AA duty would find it useful too, since it's a chance to turn a non-result into a hit. Best of all this and Quad Laser Turrets are cheap, and I imagine their effects begin to mount when they are active in battle.

Something to note:

The Raider-I has two black dice for its flak, both of which enjoy rolling the crit side (as it's a damage) and don't want to be rerolled. The Raider-II is a black+blue but I can't see the Point Defense Reroute being worth it for the 25% chance of the single blue dice at close range wanting a reroll.

The Quad Laser Turrets get better with a Point Defense reroll and/or on the Warlord+H9 combination VSD (for the guaranteed 1 damage) but the first combination uses up two Offensive Retrofit slots (so it's ISD-I only and that feels like a gross misuse of the potential) and the second is on a slow fairly predictable VSD that doesn't end up coming out too cheap points-wise.

Yeah I understand the intent of most cards, what I don't understand is the point cost considering the opportunity cost. In other words "cost" goes waaay deeper than fleet points, and sometimes I don't think that level of thought was applied to the fleet point costing of several upgrades.

Cluster bombs is a great example of this, 5 fleet points for a one-off upgrade of questionable value that occupies the slot of a potentially MUCH higher return for very little additional FP cost upgrade? Bad. Add to that the perspective that the CBs represent 5/8ths of say, an additional tie fighter, it should have the anti-fighter potential of 5/8th of a tie fighter + justify the opportunity cost of that slot. In that regard it is a clear waste.

There are some ships that are just better with certain kinds of upgrades on them than others. Boosted Comms as an offensive slot is not going to work on ships with low fighter counts, for instance. Foresight might not need the ECM after all and can invest in something like Redundant shields while Mon Mothma helps get the most out of defensive tokens.

So a small part of me believes that even if Cluster bombs aren't attractive now, perhaps in the future there will be an opportunity where that upgrade is better on a particular kind of ship. Kind like how I expect Point-defense reroute to be better on a future blue two-dice ship. As it is I wish the Nebulons could take it.

Any Raiders running AA duty would find it useful too, since it's a chance to turn a non-result into a hit. Best of all this and Quad Laser Turrets are cheap, and I imagine their effects begin to mount when they are active in battle.

Something to note:

The Raider-I has two black dice for its flak, both of which enjoy rolling the crit side (as it's a damage) and don't want to be rerolled. The Raider-II is a black+blue but I can't see the Point Defense Reroute being worth it for the 25% chance of the single blue dice at close range wanting a reroll.

The Quad Laser Turrets get better with a Point Defense reroll and/or on the Warlord+H9 combination VSD (for the guaranteed 1 damage) but the first combination uses up two Offensive Retrofit slots (so it's ISD-I only and that feels like a gross misuse of the potential) and the second is on a slow fairly predictable VSD that doesn't end up coming out too cheap points-wise.

Even as I was typing about the raider I winced a little bit, only the blue die on the II is going to benefit from PDR. If an ISD-I had two blue dice that might be a more comfortable combination that could just tear through fighters, but as it is only the blue die would benefit on normal attacks. That's why I like to imagine future ships making better use of these combinations because I don't think the cards are bad, just awkwardly placed on some ships.