I've now run 3 EotE sessions with my 4-person group, and they (and me!) are loving the game and the system. Hurrah!

Two PCs in my group play force-sensitives. And, OOC, each of them has expressed interest to me in the possibility of them becoming Jedi. This is not really part of the planned story, and while they haven't made any overt gestures IC towards this end, I can see it becoming a persistent and perhaps inevitable issue.

I've expressed some concern and scepticism with this direction, for reasons not limited to mixing and matching game systems -- lore-wise, it's certainly a bit farfetched. I'm still pretty new to GMing this system, so I'm wondering if people can share their experiences with scenarios like this, and how I might handle them.

Some specific questions:

1) In terms of mechanics, how easy are "mix-match" system campaigns to run? We're talking specifically EotE and FoD here.

2) Again, in terms of game mechanics, how do you handle the "graduating to a Jedi" scenario, in terms of a progression from EotE to FoD? (Do you "lose" your obligations? Etc.)

3) Story-balance-wise, how the heck do you manage to keep your Jedi characters on the same playing field as your EotE characters? Is there any reasonable or feasible way to avoid your Hired Gun from becoming Goon Sidekick when your Guardian becomes a galactic superhero?

I've now run 3 EotE sessions with my 4-person group, and they (and me!) are loving the game and the system. Hurrah!

Two PCs in my group play force-sensitives. And, OOC, each of them has expressed interest to me in the possibility of them becoming Jedi. This is not really part of the planned story, and while they haven't made any overt gestures IC towards this end, I can see it becoming a persistent and perhaps inevitable issue.

I've expressed some concern and scepticism with this direction, for reasons not limited to mixing and matching game systems -- lore-wise, it's certainly a bit farfetched. I'm still pretty new to GMing this system, so I'm wondering if people can share their experiences with scenarios like this, and how I might handle them.

Some specific questions:

1) In terms of mechanics, how easy are "mix-match" system campaigns to run? We're talking specifically EotE and FoD here.

2) Again, in terms of game mechanics, how do you handle the "graduating to a Jedi" scenario, in terms of a progression from EotE to FoD? (Do you "lose" your obligations? Etc.)

3) Story-balance-wise, how the heck do you manage to keep your Jedi characters on the same playing field as your EotE characters? Is there any reasonable or feasible way to avoid your Hired Gun from becoming Goon Sidekick when your Guardian becomes a galactic superhero?

1) The systems are designed from the ground up with the intent of being played together. Each is individually it's own game and can be played without the use of any of the others but all three together work perfectly well. You will have to ask yourself if you want to include the Morality mechanic for them (and many would suggest that you do) or not. Their Obligation is not erased at all and continues to operate as it does for any EotE character. Ultimately, the inclusion of the FoD content mostly adds some additional force powers, skills and specializations which these players can pick up.

2) There is no hard and fast rules on 'graduating to jedi'. To start, there's a significant misconception that FaD characters = Jedi. They are Force Sensitives, just like those from EotE but the themes of these characters are certainly heavily influenced by the Jedi of the past. but simply having these specializations and abilities doesn't make you a Jedi and they really don't offer much that any of the other Force Sensitive specializations can't do except more ways to pick up extra Force Rating points if you delve far enough into their trees. So, you could let them buy FaD specializations as non-career specializations since they meet the Force Rating requirement for them. You could let them pick up some of the new powers, etc.. or you could ignore FaD all together and still let them progress towards 'becoming jedi' as it were. That progression is a story progression and completely in your hands as the GM. Finding lost lore or potentially a mentor is more the key points of this journey... something, or someone, needs to show them and teach them the path of the Jedi and what it means to be one. Many adventures can be built around this given that the Empire has done everything they can to eradicate all memory of the Jedi and all of their temples and history.

3) I don't really think there's a big balance issue to worry about here. As many have said before, unlike other systems, force powers are not game breakingly unbalanced. Will the force sensitive jedi-hopefuls be able to do things others aren't? Yes, but they give up other things for this. If they want to get more specializations that is XP that isn't going into skills. If they want more force powers or to be able to do more with those powers, that's XP not going into either skills or talents. Really, it works basically the same as it does already with them being force sensitive, as I've mentioned already in this post.

That's really helpful ShiKage, thank you.

2) Again, in terms of game mechanics, how do you handle the "graduating to a Jedi" scenario, in terms of a progression from EotE to FoD? (Do you "lose" your obligations? Etc.)

Just to add to the above, I would say being a Jedi is not something you "graduate to"...it's less to do with XP and capabilities, and more to do with adherence to a code of conduct. I can't recall who posed this question years ago, but it was a GM who, when their players wanted to play a Jedi, would ask: "Would you be willing to play a Jedi if you had no Force powers and no lightsaber?" If the answer was "yes", then the player had the correct mindset. If the answer was "no", then the player was simply interested in Moar Powah! and would probably end up roleplaying a Sith. It's probably worth asking the players, just to help clarify their actual intent.

3) Story-balance-wise, how the heck do you manage to keep your Jedi characters on the same playing field as your EotE characters? Is there any reasonable or feasible way to avoid your Hired Gun from becoming Goon Sidekick when your Guardian becomes a galactic superhero?

So far I have not found this to be a problem. All the XP the Force user spends on powers is XP not spent on Talents and Skills. I don't know if there's a point where the power curves diverge, but if there is one it's pretty far away. That said, you can be a one-trick-pony with Move, so be careful about that.

GreyMatter, on 26 Nov 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:GreyMatter, on 26 Nov 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

I've now run 3 EotE sessions with my 4-person group, and they (and me!) are loving the game and the system. Hurrah!

Two PCs in my group play force-sensitives. And, OOC, each of them has expressed interest to me in the possibility of them becoming Jedi. This is not really part of the planned story, and while they haven't made any overt gestures IC towards this end, I can see it becoming a persistent and perhaps inevitable issue.

I've expressed some concern and scepticism with this direction, for reasons not limited to mixing and matching game systems -- lore-wise, it's certainly a bit farfetched. I'm still pretty new to GMing this system, so I'm wondering if people can share their experiences with scenarios like this, and how I might handle them.

Some specific questions:

1) In terms of mechanics, how easy are "mix-match" system campaigns to run? We're talking specifically EotE and FoD here.

2) Again, in terms of game mechanics, how do you handle the "graduating to a Jedi" scenario, in terms of a progression from EotE to FoD? (Do you "lose" your obligations? Etc.)

3) Story-balance-wise, how the heck do you manage to keep your Jedi characters on the same playing field as your EotE characters? Is there any reasonable or feasible way to avoid your Hired Gun from becoming Goon Sidekick when your Guardian becomes a galactic superhero?

1) Pretty easy mechanically. However, if your EoTE characters are dirty bastards and the Force users want to be light side Paragon, you will probably have PVP Inside the groupe since every time they will witness bad things without doing anything, your force users will earn conflict points. Also, maybe the "normal characters" dont want to be hunted down by inquisitors.

2) since the Order is gone, your force user PC will never graduate Jedi unless they met Yoda or another Jedi master that can award them the title. You can be a criminal with a lighsaber and amazing powers with that system. Also, a Force user can have a obligation. There is no problem with that.

3) Since a normal character like an Hired Gun need to less spread his XP, when the Guardian reach the superhero level, the Hired Gun will probably be already a killing machine God or a really good multi-tasked character so dont worry.

I don't see the problem with an actual Jedi mixing with scum, if he had common sense, he would have to go along with whatever they are doing. The republic is no more, all he has is whatever company he can get. Players of that particular tradition are basically forced to face the harsh reality of a galaxy once forgotten. The people forgotten.

Indeed. Jedi mixing in with less savory characters is the whole thematic of survivong Jedis during the Empire.

If they want to be alongside heroes, make hin join the Rebellion.

LordBritish, on 26 Nov 2015 - 7:39 PM, said:LordBritish, on 26 Nov 2015 - 7:39 PM, said:

I don't see the problem with an actual Jedi mixing with scum, if he had common sense, he would have to go along with whatever they are doing. The republic is no more, all he has is whatever company he can get. Players of that particular tradition are basically forced to face the harsh reality of a galaxy once forgotten. The people forgotten.

Again it depend of how the players roleplay their characters. The paladin versus the rogue in the same party is a common problem in DnD.

Theorically, it shouldn't cause problem since the Forcer Users are part of the scum group since the beginning but who know.

The whole "Paladin/Rogue" problem is only a problem if the characters are attempting to be Jedi (well, mostly). If they're just self-taught Force users, without adhering to the theology, then it's not a problem. Like ShiKage stated, F&D is not the 'Jedi' book, it's the 'Force' book.

And it all depends on your Universe, too. I mean, if you follow the setting in EotE exactly as written, then one or two of the PCs following the Way of the Force could have a story arc something like Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia.

But if you are set at some other time, or events have worked out differently in your Universe, then that part of the story might be totally different.

Try to steer them away from the idea of being actually "Jedi", if you're playing in the Original Trilogy time period then Yoda and Luke are probably all that's left, and Luke only completes his training at the end of RotJ. So unless they have direct contact with Yoda or Luke then they are not "Jedi."

But they can absolutely be powerful Force Users. And a Holocron can teach them the Way of the Jedi (or Sith if they are in aware!). So tell them that picking up a FaD Specialisation doesn't mean they are Jedi. There are also many other Force Traditions and a PC could come up with their own in their back story.

Hope it goes well for you.

Well.. Theres also Ezra.. :-P

Well.. Theres also Ezra.. :-P

As well as Kanan and Ahsoka.

In an interview, Dave Filoni is going with "Yoda didn't know about them" in regards to his line about Luke being the last of the Jedi. Seeing as how Yoda's been out of touch with galactic events and news for over two decades, there are probably other Jedi survivors out there in the galaxy that he simply doesn't know about.

Or, Yoda could have been employing a bit of "Jedi truth" in that Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra aren't Jedi Knights , even if they were trained in the Jedi arts. Kanan and Ahsoka never made it past Padawan, and Ezra was never a proper member of the Order.

Personally, I chalk it up to one final motivational speech from the little green guy to make sure that Luke doesn't try to shirk the duty/destiny that only he stands a chance of actually accomplishing.

Or, Yoda could have been employing a bit of "Jedi truth" in that Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra aren't Jedi Knights , even if they were trained in the Jedi arts. Kanan and Ahsoka never made it past Padawan, and Ezra was never a proper member of the Order.

Personally, I chalk it up to one final motivational speech from the little green guy to make sure that Luke doesn't try to shirk the duty/destiny that only he stands a chance of actually accomplishing.

Or, Yoda knew about other members of the Jedi order who were out there, and maybe even Jedi Knights and even Masters, but he also knew that they weren’t the prophesied “Last Hope of the Jedi Order”.

Well.. Theres also Ezra.. :-P

As well as Kanan and Ahsoka.

In an interview, Dave Filoni is going with "Yoda didn't know about them" in regards to his line about Luke being the last of the Jedi. Seeing as how Yoda's been out of touch with galactic events and news for over two decades, there are probably other Jedi survivors out there in the galaxy that he simply doesn't know about.

Or, Yoda could have been employing a bit of "Jedi truth" in that Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra aren't Jedi Knights , even if they were trained in the Jedi arts. Kanan and Ahsoka never made it past Padawan, and Ezra was never a proper member of the Order.

Personally, I chalk it up to one final motivational speech from the little green guy to make sure that Luke doesn't try to shirk the duty/destiny that only he stands a chance of actually accomplishing.

It also depends how technical you choose to be about things. I am not certain Ahsoka completed her training and became a Jedi Knight but I believe she was a padawan through the entire Clone Wars series. Even if she had, she actually chose to leave the order so is technically not a Jedi any longer. Kanan was a Padawan when Order 66 came down and they killed his master. He never completed his trials and never became a Jedi Knight, so it is debatable if being a Padawan qualifies one to be considered an actual Jedi and without a master he would be unable to properly complete his training. Though, chances are, with the death of his mater Kanan was considered dead to any remaining Jedi (aka: Yoda).

Similarly, we have Ezra, which Yoda would have been unaware of at the time of his going into hiding on Dagobah. On top of this, Ezra's training is coming at the hands of someone who hasn't even completed their own training. So I don't think that really qualifies him as a Jedi specifically either but in the state of the galaxy at the time it's the best one can get and certainly better than most would be able to do.

So basically, it all depends at what point one might be considered a Jedi and at what point they might be considered breaking off onto their own path. And.... I suppose I should have read the whole post first since you basically said this in less words already.

Well.. Theres also Ezra.. :-P

As well as Kanan and Ahsoka.

In an interview, Dave Filoni is going with "Yoda didn't know about them" in regards to his line about Luke being the last of the Jedi. Seeing as how Yoda's been out of touch with galactic events and news for over two decades, there are probably other Jedi survivors out there in the galaxy that he simply doesn't know about.

Or, Yoda could have been employing a bit of "Jedi truth" in that Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra aren't Jedi Knights , even if they were trained in the Jedi arts. Kanan and Ahsoka never made it past Padawan, and Ezra was never a proper member of the Order.

Personally, I chalk it up to one final motivational speech from the little green guy to make sure that Luke doesn't try to shirk the duty/destiny that only he stands a chance of actually accomplishing.

Ashokha is dead. She has the Galaxy's biggest bullseye on her back. She will surely die before series end.

Kanan.. Not sure about him. I get your point about not being a full fledged Jedi, but hes certainly not doing badly. But i think he too will die.

I would have to admit that something must happen with the Ghost and her Crew as well as Ahsoka for people to be so impressed and surprised by Luke and what he can do. They can't continue to be as heavily involved as they are and as successful as they are and not have basically the entire rebellion forces know they've got 3 'Jedi' running around solving problems. I wont say they necessarily have to die but they must end up becoming less directly involved or go into hiding or something. But now I think we're starting to digress a fair bit from the original question of the threat.

This has all been a very helpful discussion, guys. Feeling a lot better about where my PCs are going with their stories now!

Or, Yoda could have been employing a bit of "Jedi truth" in that Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra aren't Jedi Knights , even if they were trained in the Jedi arts. Kanan and Ahsoka never made it past Padawan, and Ezra was never a proper member of the Order.

Personally, I chalk it up to one final motivational speech from the little green guy to make sure that Luke doesn't try to shirk the duty/destiny that only he stands a chance of actually accomplishing.

Or, Yoda knew about other members of the Jedi order who were out there, and maybe even Jedi Knights and even Masters, but he also knew that they weren’t the prophesied “Last Hope of the Jedi Order”.

Or, Yoda finally started to figure out that to get the Chosen One to "bring balance", he could only be confronted by Luke. No one else would have the emotional and nostalgic impact to free Vader's mind.

I would have to admit that something must happen with the Ghost and her Crew as well as Ahsoka for people to be so impressed and surprised by Luke and what he can do.

Begs the question: were people so impressed and surprised? We get that sense from the OT because the point of view is from within the small band of the main characters. Also, even at their height, most people never saw a Jedi. But I doubt the leadership of the Rebellion was so unaware, most of them would have lived through the Clone Wars. I think Rebels is showing that there was a lot more interactivity and awareness than we expected, and there's really nothing in the OT that precludes it.

Conjecture aside, I don't think I was that clear on the point I was trying to make. Force and Destiny is a book about playing Force Users. Being Jedi is a Narative story element. The force is the same for everyone, there's a Light and Dark side. Some traditions teach you how to use one ore the other. By not labelling themselves Jedi they have more freedom to create "their" story.

Begs the question: were people so impressed and surprised? We get that sense from the OT because the point of view is from within the small band of the main characters. Also, even at their height, most people never saw a Jedi. But I doubt the leadership of the Rebellion was so unaware, most of them would have lived through the Clone Wars. I think Rebels is showing that there was a lot more interactivity and awareness than we expected, and there's really nothing in the OT that precludes it.

You would expect, however, with people like Hera, Kanan and Ahsoka around they might have played a larger role in the whole assault on the Death Star, or the second death star. Rather than Lando in the Falcon, Hera leading the charge would totally make sense there.

As for the original question:

i think there's no problem in integrating FaD to EotE (and also integrating AoR too), rulewise. You just need to add morality (and i think is a good thing to add to EVERY force user, not just Jedi) and specialization/powers/equipment from FaD

the main problem could be into integrating Jedi code with bunch of smuggler, but that's heaviliy depends on the theme of the campaign.

The Ghost crew started as EotE and gradually becomse AoR members during first season. Kanan is clearly a FaD characther (and i'm not talking about Ahsoka) while Ezra is more a force-sensitive (AoR force user universal spec) than Jedi outcast

Han Solo and Chewie started as EotE and then become general of rebellion

Cade Skywalker was a smuggler and a pirate. Right, is not "canon" and is 125 years after Yavin etc but is still a good example of smuggler-turned-Jedi

Having a Jedi on a smuggler group could be tricky, but that's not something player can't solve. Maybe the bounty hunter in the group is the reason why Force Users are constantly on the edge of the dark side. Or maybe the Jedi Code and all their force mumble is converting the old merchant to be a little more good-doers and a little less slave-seller.

Obviously, you should talk with your players: if they whant something agreeable, like working on this transition and maybe integration, is fine. If Force Users whant a Jedi-centric campaign while the others whant a Firefly-themed with slave selling and brutal murders and piracy... now THAT's the problem, not the rules.

As for the problem about having Ahsoka and Kanan and Ezra in main canon, it's the biggest problem of playing before (or during) main movie's events.

Apart from Ahsoka being a dead togruta walking, Kanan and Ezra are probably like to survive until Yavin. And Hera should have commandered main assault. However, maybe they where the ones slicing Death Star's plan and giving them to R2D2. And maybe during Yavin they where fighting another battle.

Same for PC: they are big heroes of your campaign and probably will ends up being big **** heroes for the Rebellion. BUT that's true they could be assigned to other tasks. Maybe during Endor they where on Coruscant fighting a civil war to overthrown the Empire as soon as the Emperor died. Or they where working on some backup plan. Or going to free Naboo (1) or destroy project of a new super star destroyer biggest enough to make Executor feels like a little tie fighter. Or... anything else!

The Galaxy is wide. There are a lot of explanation.

Also, after 16 of december, every speculation we can have about post-RotJ will fade away

(1) unluckily, all Gungans died in the campaign to free Naboo. Oh... what a shame...

Begs the question: were people so impressed and surprised? We get that sense from the OT because the point of view is from within the small band of the main characters. Also, even at their height, most people never saw a Jedi. But I doubt the leadership of the Rebellion was so unaware, most of them would have lived through the Clone Wars. I think Rebels is showing that there was a lot more interactivity and awareness than we expected, and there's really nothing in the OT that precludes it.

You would expect, however, with people like Hera, Kanan and Ahsoka around they might have played a larger role in the whole assault on the Death Star, or the second death star. Rather than Lando in the Falcon, Hera leading the charge would totally make sense there.

That's a pretty big leap. Rebels takes place some 5 years before the Battle of Yavin, and the Battle of Endor takes place 4 years after that again. Lots of things could have happened to the crew of the Ghost in those five and nine years to account for why they weren't there.

That's a pretty big leap. Rebels takes place some 5 years before the Battle of Yavin, and the Battle of Endor takes place 4 years after that again. Lots of things could have happened to the crew of the Ghost in those five and nine years to account for why they weren't there.

That was my point from the beginning, I just try to avoid multi-level quotes and just quote the person I am responding to. I stated that I suspect something must happen to the crew of the Ghost and Ahsoka, not necessarily their deaths, to explain their lack of involvement. That and the fact that people do seem pretty impressed and surprised by Luke's accomplishments. I can agree with Whafrog that perhaps the upper levels are not as surprised as we might assume through the general reactions of other people but that still doesn't explain their lack of involvement in these major campaigns and so I still maintain that something must occur to this group to take them away from the rebellion before these events occur. Not to mention, you would also expect people like Kanan and Ahsoka would want to meet Luke once they hear of his connection to the force as well. Of course, that could potentially have happened between ESB and RotJ, since we don't have a lot of details about what happened to Luke on his journey to becoming a Jedi Knight, particularly not canon material covering this.